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  1. #1
    Immortal True Anarch's Avatar
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    Ability bloat - Limiting the number of simultaneous skills.

    Having played Hearthstone's beta for a while now, it made me realize how there the different classes too need to make a careful selection of which abilities (spells) etc. they wish to put in their deck.

    With the constant talk of ability bloat and just having too many skills on your toolbars everywhere: "Do you think it would be an interesting or fun idea to change the gameplay of WoW in such a manner that you'd have to make a careful selection of a limited number of skills instead of having them all available at all times?"

    I personally think this could be a very fun gameplay concept. Say for example limit the number of abilities you can use at any given time to 10. So you'll have to think wether or not you'll want to have sprint on your keybar or a stun instead. It would in turn again make DPS output compete with functionality, say for example that as a PvP mage you might not want to have your maximum DPS rotation skills on your toolbar, but are happy with a bit less damage output and extra CC instead.

    It seems to me one of the more pleasant solutions instead of having to remove abilities from the game. And reducing the ability bloat, to me, seems like a necessity since I know many casual players who complain about how full their keybars are, or many even about basic DPS rotations having become too complex and involving too many different abilities.
    The cheapest form of pride is national pride. The man who possesses outstanding personal qualities will rather see most clearly the faults of his own nation, for he has them constantly before his eyes. But every miserable fool, who has nothing in the world whereof he could be proud, resorts to being proud of the very nation to which he belongs. In this he finds compensation and is now ready and thankful to defend, … all the faults and follies peculiar to it. - Schopenhauer

  2. #2

    Its already implemented
    Talents and glyphs? (talents homever should be more like this)
    Why reduce abilities?
    Last edited by Narwhalosh Whalescream; 2013-09-16 at 11:42 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewor View Post
    Jaylock more like Gayblock

  3. #3
    I Honestly wouldn't want a diablo 3 style pick your buttons gameplay. In the end it wouldn't be fun at all, it would just end up the 10 buttons the guides on the forums say are the best.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Crete View Post
    I Honestly wouldn't want a diablo 3 style pick your buttons gameplay. In the end it wouldn't be fun at all, it would just end up the 10 buttons the guides on the forums say are the best.
    This also
    Wise words
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewor View Post
    Jaylock more like Gayblock

  5. #5
    No, they should just cut some of them. Having billions of abilities and only choose 10 will only result in everybody choosing the same abilities, like it has always been. It's already happening with talents and glyphs and stats and everything.

    Ability bloat is not a general problem. I think the worst affected are the hunters. There is no ability bloat for mage, rogue or DK for example. Hunters have almost double the abilities of those classes.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Im a internet troll View Post
    Why reduce abilities?
    Because the game has too many buttons already, and every expansion adds few more.

    Enhancement shaman has more than 15 buttons to press to perform best possible single target tank&spank dps rotation, and I say it's too much. That's 15+ without even counting in any aoe abilities, defensive cooldowns, interrupts or any other kind of extra utility, just the offensive ones. Some specs certainly have pretty bad button bloat at the moment that needs to be fixed.
    Never going to log into this garbage forum again as long as calling obvious troll obvious troll is the easiest way to get banned.
    Trolling should be.

  7. #7
    Bloodsail Admiral Kharli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vesseblah View Post
    Because the game has too many buttons already, and every expansion adds few more.

    Enhancement shaman has more than 15 buttons to press to perform best possible single target tank&spank dps rotation, and I say it's too much. That's 15+ without even counting in any aoe abilities, defensive cooldowns, interrupts or any other kind of extra utility, just the offensive ones. Some specs certainly have pretty bad button bloat at the moment that needs to be fixed.
    which is why macros exists ;P
    simple macro.

  8. #8
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    I often advocate for less bloat. I don't mean D3 style, but say a hard cap of 15 "active" abilities that see frequent use. 15 abilities lets you keep most of the general keybinds that people use, and get rid of the need for tons of modifier keys. That of course would not include things like buffs/utility (e.g. Warlock summoning) which don't often see use to where they would require an actual keybind.

    One of my favorite games for it though was The Secret World which limited to I think 8 abilities, and that was great because you could pick and choose for different situations, but I don't think that could really work in a game with classes.

    If macros worked the way they did in Rift, with many abilities designed to support that (yes, I'm talking about the good old days in Rift with the 1-button spam macro) then I could see having a lot of abilities, as most of them would be used in tandem and combined into macros. The WoW macro system cannot do that though, so we need to trim the fat.

    For example (THIS IS HYPOTHETICAL) let's say we redesigned the Paladin so Judgment was on a 10s cooldown, did X holy damage and had some buff it applied to you for 10s (for simplicity let's say it gives +5% damage as Ret, +5% block as Prot and +5% healing as Holy). Crusader Strike has no cooldown other than the GCD. Let's also say that Inquisition is a "proc" ability that can happen off of attacks, and is off the global cooldown. In this case there could be a macro system like Rift's that would let you do something like:

    /cast Judgment
    /cast Crusader Strike
    /cast Inquisition

    and you can "spam" that to keep the buff from Judgment rolling and using CS as your primary attack, and whenever Inquisition procs it will trigger as well. In a case like that having "extra" abilities doesn't matter because they will likely be in macros. The problem comes when you have a large number of abilities that cannot (by design/intent) be used in macros together, requiring specific keybinds.
    Last edited by Nobleshield; 2013-09-16 at 12:09 PM.
    NOBLESHIELD
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Kharli View Post
    which is why macros exists ;P
    simple macro.
    Macros are band-aid to fix chopped off limb. Some of the buttons really need to go or that 15+ is 20+ after two more expansions.
    Never going to log into this garbage forum again as long as calling obvious troll obvious troll is the easiest way to get banned.
    Trolling should be.

  10. #10
    Mechagnome Krunsh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kharli View Post
    which is why macros exists ;P
    simple macro.
    simple macro that had its functionality removed in BC because of one button BM hunter rotations

  11. #11
    Play Guild Wars 2 and enjoy the 8 button experience. Nothing against that game, but of those 8 you tend to use 4-5 only the whole leveling experience......

  12. #12
    I wouldn't mind more abilities being moved to talents. This would also solve the problem that there is so little to choose from during levelling (only every 15 levels or whatever).

  13. #13
    Keyboard Turner b1ind's Avatar
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    Wouldn't really solve anything b/c the bloat when then just be at 11 spells

  14. #14
    The Lightbringer Simulacrum's Avatar
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    I fucking hate the D3, GW2, etc., style ability limitation. The end result isn't "careful selection of abilities", it's that you end up picking whichever combination is the best one at doing whatever it is that you need them to do, and you end up using like 2 skills 99% of the time anyway, because the other ones are there 'just in case', or they're fucking passives the way that D3 does it (talk about retarded design). Unless you can change them on the fly at no disadvantage? Then what's the point?

    Some classes in WoW have more abilities than is really healthy, but making wow more like a console game is not the answer.

  15. #15
    Immortal True Anarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cattlehunter View Post
    I fucking hate the D3, GW2, etc., style ability limitation. The end result isn't "careful selection of abilities", it's that you end up picking whichever combination is the best one at doing whatever it is that you need them to do
    This is not completely true at all.

    First of, the D3 system is completely different from GW2. The GW2 system felt lackluster because there wasn't really much choice, it mostly all depended on which weapon you had equipped, which in any case would also be the highest ilvl one you found

    In D3 however you can already see many different builds for the same classes. The goal in D3 is always the same, kill mobs, grind gear yet for any given class there are tons of different viable builds. In D3 the ability selection limitation causes you to be different from another person playing the same class, when they add even more abilities, talents, spells and runes in the next expansion this diversity will become even larger.

    I think @Reckoner04 is unto something. They probably should put almost all the current abilities into the talent selection tree instead, would make leveling feel more fun too instead of having to wait 15 levels to get something new to choose from everytime.
    The cheapest form of pride is national pride. The man who possesses outstanding personal qualities will rather see most clearly the faults of his own nation, for he has them constantly before his eyes. But every miserable fool, who has nothing in the world whereof he could be proud, resorts to being proud of the very nation to which he belongs. In this he finds compensation and is now ready and thankful to defend, … all the faults and follies peculiar to it. - Schopenhauer

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by vesseblah View Post
    Enhancement shaman has more than 15 buttons to press to perform best possible single target tank&spank dps rotation, and I say it's too much. That's 15+ without even counting in any aoe abilities, defensive cooldowns, interrupts or any other kind of extra utility, just the offensive ones. Some specs certainly have pretty bad button bloat at the moment that needs to be fixed.
    And mine is an engineer.

    While my arcane mage pulls 105ish K DPS on LFR bosses in ilevel 492 gear... 95% arcane blast. /shrug

  17. #17
    I think this "chose your talents and move on" is sadly a nasty departure from the RPG genre and going deep into the arcade. You can be anything and everything at any time, with almost no cost at all. While this is a welcome convenience even for myself, I can't ignore the sadness of what things have become.

    Putting the abilities in talents will change nothing. In GW2 they are in talents and there are cookie cutter builds for everything.

  18. #18
    Brewmaster Breccia's Avatar
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    The problem with too many short-cooldown abilities (under 10 seconds) is that your rotation gets complicated. The problem with too few is that it gets arcane mage-style boring.

    The problem with too many long-cooldown abilities is burst damage/healing gets too powerful. The problem with too few is that you're not doing anything cool for minutes at a time.

    The problem with too many utility abilities is that everyone can do everything. The problem with too few is that class stacking becomes mandatory.

    And finally, the problem with adding abilities is that people don't know where to put them. The problem with removing them is that people miss them when they're gone.

    It's a fine line to walk, to be sure. Nobody's going to get it perfect. If it were my job to set things up...well I'd probably screw it up and get fired, but my first thought would be:
    -- one low/no-cost filler attack (such as Devastate)
    -- four short-cooldown rotation abilities (such as Revenge, Shield Slam, Shield Block and Shield Barrier)
    -- two long-cooldown abilities (such as Shield Wall and Last Stand)
    -- two utility abilities (such as Charge and Pummel)
    Why? Because my keyboard has ten numbers, and I'd want the last one for potions or something.

    This puts us back in Vanilla-era WoW. The game has, yes, advanced quite a lot since. I now have not just my number keys all bound to stuff, but my shift-numbers as well, and a third control-number toolbar just for anything with a cooldown over 60 seconds. And it flows smoothly, for the most part. It works. A good gamer (such as me) will find a spot for just about everything the current game offers, and make it work enough to be competent. A great gamer (which I'm not) will make it fit perfectly even in high-stress variable situations with optimum efficiency. I freely admit: I don't think I can run at 90% or higher of my potential output. But I don't think that, in and of itself, is a reason to reduce the number of abilities, which would hurt high-end raiders and PvPers who can make it flow in the 90%+ range. I think a large number of abilities allows there to be a span of skill on display, where you can actually look up at world-first raiders and season-winning PvPers and say "wow, look at those guys push the limits!" There needs to be a bell-curve, especially in a game with literally millions of players, and I honestly don't think you can do that as well with only square/triangle/circle/x to hit.

    Now that does not mean there can't be too many abilities. I just don't think we're there yet. Three toolsbars where I would draw the line, honestly. My third toolbar isn't quite filled up yet, so at least for my class/spec/playstyle, I can afford to add more. Personally, I don't see how anyone would be expected to do more than number, shift-number, and control-number with any semblance of reaction speed. Asking a class/spec to have more than 30 abilities to use at a moment's notice is where I'd actively start complaining about bloat.

    But then, I suck at playing the piano, too.

  19. #19
    The Insane Slowpoke is a Gamer's Avatar
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    It's a balancing act.

    You can't be like EQN and give everybody 4 different autoattacks, but you also can't get them 50 "pop this cooldown every time it's available" abilities with flashy animations and unique names.
    You don't create "justice" by destroying. That includes buildings, cars, or the careers of the people you want "justice" for.


  20. #20
    Warchief Solidito's Avatar
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    Other MMO's bore me because of the limmited buttons. So, no.

    I enjoy having between 15-25 buttons or w.e that i can use in different situations, i'm sorry if you're not good enough to manage these, but for me it makes the gameplay a lot more interesting than sitting there pressing 4 buttons and nothing else ever.

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