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  1. #1


    Thanks for the solution
    Last edited by Aranel; 2016-07-21 at 06:43 PM.

  2. #2
    To my experience, such people make the better players suffer a lot (and maybe even make them switch to another guild). Every raiding player as the responsibility to know how to play his/her class. If you really have the time - fine, then help them.

    If not: Tell them that they are holding back the raid group and you'll have to exchange them if they don't improve, for the better of the whole raid.

  3. #3
    Stood in the Fire
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Austin, Texas
    Some people don't handle criticism well at all. They may believe they are performing fine when they are not. I've had to deal with this from time to time and the best advice I can give is to speak to them individually out of the raid. If you're familiar with the class mechanics, rotations, priorities and using World of Logs, you can show them indisputable proof that they are not meeting expectations. If you are not familiar with the class hopefully you know someone that is and can talk to them about helping your raid member become a better player.

    If they are not receptive to your offer to assist then you have to do what is best for the raid and guild if your priority as a guild is to clear content. I think it's all about how you approach the topic and if you are viewed as someone that is knowledgeable.

  4. #4
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Trinity, FL
    This is really a tough situation to be in, so firstly my sympathies.

    Onto your actual question: I would say the best answer is to approach it in a constructive and civil manner. Saying "Bob your DPS is awful, are you even trying?!" is going to get a MUCH different and much more hostile reaction than "Bob, if you did X you would be able to do more damage". Point them towards the class forums here, or a site like Icy Veins or if their class forums are updated, to Elitist Jerks for resources. If you know how to look through World of Logs, do that to have concrete feedback (e.g. "Bob you aren't keeping up your DoTs enough, and it's hurting your DPS"). If you don't log, then start, and even if you don't know how to go through logs the experts in the class forums do and can help you out. If someone happens to play a class that you know yourself, then you are in a better position to suggest improvements as you can give real-world examples based on your own performance.

    The key is positive reinforcement; nobody is going to react well to being told they suck and are holding everyone back, but suggesting resources to "do even better" is spinning things in a positive light. Ultimately you'll need to state firmly that you can't bring them in if they are underperforming because the whole raid suffers; this might hurt their feelings and it's a necessary evil when the time comes. If you are offering suggestions and nothing is working, then you have no choice but to replace them. Maybe give Flex raids a try and see how that holds up, so if you need to you could bring them to Flex raids but keep them out of actual progression.

    In this end this is a very tough place to be in, especially if you are longtime friends with the underperformers because you risk hurting that friendship by virtue of them not being good enough to do the content. The very first thing to do is to make sure they are receptive to criticism. I recall a bad experience in RIFT where I was actually kicked out of a guild for being "elitist" when I said I would post links to class guides on the guild forums to help people out, because we were hitting enrage at 20% or so on the first raid boss of their Storm Legion expansion. In that situation, nobody wanted criticism at all and were oblivious to any issues, but a situation like that is easier to handle if you are an officer/raid leader/GM than just a grunt because people are more likely to listen to your advice.

    Good luck!
    Last edited by Nobleshield; 2013-09-16 at 03:15 PM.
    Raids & Dungeons Moderator | Normal Voice | Mod Voice

  5. #5
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Trinity, FL
    Quote Originally Posted by Aranel View Post
    Thanks for the responses guys I appreciate the feedback. I have given them links to guides on the sites you have suggested. I'm going to try and use World of Logs. I just feel bad for the rest of the raid because we are missing out on some progression and I think the raid knows where our problem is, but they haven't been negative towards our under performers.
    It's often the case that the underperformers are good friends or just people that you like having around, so any bad performance gets overlooked until it kind of boils over and people get frustrated with the lack of progress, look for other guilds, etc.

    With luck the guides will help them improve overall.
    Raids & Dungeons Moderator | Normal Voice | Mod Voice

  6. #6
    Ive been in guilds with that situation. All I can say is: Try to solve it now. The guild I had it in fell apart with drama and the better people getting bored due to lack of progression. It can even happen to friend-based guilds Im afraid haha . Just keep calm and work on sorting it tho, Good Leadership is what really matters for a guild!
    I was Once a Nab
    Then I rolled a Paladin
    Thats when I found out
    that I REALLY was a Nab

  7. #7
    If they actually care about improving, have them talk to someone knowledgeable on their class/spec. If such a resource exists in your guild, that's probably the best place to go first. After that, you can talk to someone from a top guild on your server (if there is one on your server). In my personal experience, most people in top guilds are obsessed with theorycrafting, keep themselves very up to date, and are willing/eager to share when they have time. Thirdly, you can hit up the class forums here and ask some questions; they're generally pretty good. Personally, I would go through all 3 because some people have old/bad information without knowing it. That's what I did when I started playing my alt hunter in t14.

    With all the above 3 resources, you will get far better and far more informed responses if you can provide logs. I would definitely start logging.

  8. #8
    Stop. Are you *really* wiping because of low DPS? Sure, some of the fights that might be the case but think about it and make sure you're really wiping because of low DPS and not some other reason. People often focus on DPS because it's easy to measure but, while it's important, it's not usually the cause of wipes.

    Also, make sure you're accounting for the task they have in a fight. For example, in Tortos if I was on bats my DPS soared (SV hunter here). But if I was on turtles it was lower. Same on Horridon if someone tunneled the boss vs someone else doing adds like you should.

    Next, are you accounting for class differences? it was pretty easy in 5.3 for a lock to outdps, say, a hunter even if the hunter had an ilevel advantage. That's less the case in 5.4 so I'd look at what your players are doing now. My point here is that you need to compare what a given spec/class combo does in comparison to what that combo should be doing, not necessarily to other combinations.

    Also, LOG THINGS. It takes things out of the realm of "I think..." into "Hey Bob, as an SV hunter shouldn't you be keeping Serpent Sting up close to 100%? I see it as 65%..." or "In a 5 minite fight you should have used your signature ability 45-50 times since it has a 6 second CD... but you used it 28... we need that to improve" (again be aware of oddities on some fights like Meg).

    Finally, make sure they have geared/gemmed etc appropriately. In some cases a class might be over hitcap by some amount since 5.3 gear was dripping in hit and exp, but they should be fully enchanted, gemmed, etc and with the right stat balance.

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