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  1. #1

    Black Mage Discussion

    Theory

    Fire vs Fire III as filler during Astral Fire 3

    Spell potency / cast time = DPS
    Fire -- 150/2.5 = 60 DPS
    Fire III -- 220/3.5 = ~62.9 DPS
    Fire III (Instant, Firestarter proc) -- 220/2.5 = 88 DPS (This amount scales with spell speed, which lowers your GCD time.)

    Thunder vs Thunder II vs Thunder III (hardcasting during Umbral Ice 3)

    The calculations below refer to hardcasting different tiers of Thunder, without a thundercloud proc.

    (DoT potency * Ticks) + Initial potency / cast time = DPS
    Thunder -- (35*6) + 30 / 2.5 = 96 DPS
    Thunder II -- (35*7) + 50 / 3 = 98.3 DPS
    Thunder III -- (35*8) + 60 / 3.5 = 97.1 DPS


    Single Target Rotation


    Single Target Rotation w/ Flare (Only Situational if Swiftcast & Transpose is off CD)


    *** Seeing if filling with Thunder vs Thunder II to re apply is more or less dps. Reason being is the dot duration vs cast time. .5 sec less cast time in theory should get you back into the fire rotation for the higher damage. Though there is a 20 potency difference between Thunder and Thunder II.

    Situational Reminders (For Single Target DPS)

    • Only use Fire III when you have a 3 stack of Umbral Ice (Reminder when you have either 3 stack of Umbral Ice or Astral Fire, it will cut the cast time of your ice / fire spells by 50%.)
    • Using Flare when Convert is on cool down, instead using Transpose -> Blizzard III. (This is still not been proven by accurate parsers, but I believe it is still good to weave it in.)
    • If you have a Firestarter proc up when you cast Blizzard III (To get a 3 stack of Umbral Ice for large MP regeneration ticks), instead of using Fire III right away... Transpose so you have 1 stack of Astral Fire. Then use the free instant Fire III from the Firestarter proc to gain more damage.
    • Only use Thunder II when you are in Umbral Ice state, this will give you time for your MP consumption from Umbral Ice stacks to tick.
    • Only use Thunder III when you have proc Thundercloud.
    • While using Fire always weave in your free instant cast Fire III from Firestarter

    AoE Rotation


    AoE Rotation w/ Flare (Only Situational if Swiftcast & Transpose is off CD)

    Last edited by Elvine; 2013-10-02 at 09:53 PM.

  2. #2
    Bloodsail Admiral xerus's Avatar
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    Is Flare not worth using for AOE? It seems like that would be a better opener than Fire III? Though I suppose that might cause all sorts of threat issues as an opener.

  3. #3
    The Lightbringer Razael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xerus View Post
    Is Flare not worth using for AOE?
    I've seen some rotations mention it as something that could be done while in Astral Fire, cast Flare then Traspose to Umbral Ice, but must of those also mention you could just Blizzard 3 into Umbral Ice .

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by xerus View Post
    Is Flare not worth using for AOE? It seems like that would be a better opener than Fire III? Though I suppose that might cause all sorts of threat issues as an opener.
    Flare is situational, so for the time being I'd only put the rotation above in a "guide."

  5. #5
    The Patient Ramaloce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elvine View Post
    (This amount scales with spell speed, which lowers your GCD time.)
    Do you happen to know if spell speed also have an effect on Thunder's DoT ticks as well, kind of like what it does in WoW, when you reach a certain spell speed threshold you get an extra tick? Haven't been able to find the info for that.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Ramaloce View Post
    Do you happen to know if spell speed also have an effect on Thunder's DoT ticks as well, kind of like what it does in WoW, when you reach a certain spell speed threshold you get an extra tick? Haven't been able to find the info for that.
    Afaik dots are on a server tick timer and are not influenced by spell speed.

  7. #7
    The Patient Ramaloce's Avatar
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    Ah, thank you! I was wondering about that.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Thassarian View Post
    Afaik dots are on a server tick timer and are not influenced by spell speed.
    Correct. Hence why many of the parses have trouble collecting data for dot classes or when more than 1 of the same dot in on the mob.

  9. #9
    Couple of questions:

    Has anyone found a reliable DPS Parser?

    Are we all in agreement that dumping all of our points into INT is best?

    I'm replacing my non-level 50 pieces first, but any tips on our biggest upgrades @ 50? I got Ifrit's weapon (biggest upgrade IMO since weapon damage actually impacts our DPS), but now I'm just filling in earrings, neck, rings, etc. Should I be saving and replacing my body first?

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Boomcats View Post
    Couple of questions:

    Has anyone found a reliable DPS Parser?

    Are we all in agreement that dumping all of our points into INT is best?

    I'm replacing my non-level 50 pieces first, but any tips on our biggest upgrades @ 50? I got Ifrit's weapon (biggest upgrade IMO since weapon damage actually impacts our DPS), but now I'm just filling in earrings, neck, rings, etc. Should I be saving and replacing my body first?
    No real "reliable" parser, it's all atm used to get a general idea.

    Yes, dumping into INT is best.

    Body/Pants will be the biggest upgrade parts. Chest since it will count as head as well if you're talking about Darklight.

  11. #11
    The only real "rotation" I have seen use flare is ones like this one here:

    Thunder II/III --> Fire III --> Raging Strikes --> Fire until roughly 300-600 mana --> Swiftcast + Flare --> Conversion --> Fire --> Blizzard III --> Thunder II (III if proc'd) --> Fire III ---> Fire.

    However I feel that these rotations are really just forcing Flare into the rotation without any significant benefit.

    EDIT - Thinking on it some more and I believe it would however be beneficial to end the fight on Flare if possible. But in practise that may be harder to achieve.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Elvine View Post
    Yes, dumping into INT is best.
    Do you know if INT and the damage increase it gives us is linear or exponential?

    I only ask out of curiosity really as we would expect it to be exponential yet I don't think anyone has anywhere near enough INT to see if the decrease is significant at end game.
    Last edited by skitzin; 2013-09-17 at 11:25 AM.

  12. #12
    I haven't seen exponential increases in FFXIV at all.

    STR and MND are absolutely linear, so I'd guess it's the same for INT too.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyanmaru View Post
    I haven't seen exponential increases in FFXIV at all.
    Yeah that's what I am trying to get a handle on myself having played other games where they generally have an exponential curve rather than a linear one. Namely I am wondering if it's linear because we can not get enough INT/main stats to detect a significant difference or because it is truly linear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nyanmaru View Post
    STR and MND are absolutely linear, so I'd guess it's the same for INT too.
    If one two stats (particularly MND) are linear then it would be very unlikely that INT would be an exception to the rule.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by skitzin View Post
    The only real "rotation" I have seen use flare is ones like this one here:

    Thunder II/III --> Fire III --> Raging Strikes --> Fire until roughly 300-600 mana --> Swiftcast + Flare --> Conversion --> Fire --> Blizzard III --> Thunder II (III if proc'd) --> Fire III ---> Fire.

    However I feel that these rotations are really just forcing Flare into the rotation without any significant benefit.

    EDIT - Thinking on it some more and I believe it would however be beneficial to end the fight on Flare if possible. But in practise that may be harder to achieve.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Yeah, I feel you're forcing Flare into a rotation when it's not going to benefit in the long run.

    Do you know if INT and the damage increase it gives us is linear or exponential?

    I only ask out of curiosity really as we would expect it to be exponential yet I don't think anyone has anywhere near enough INT to see if the decrease is significant at end game.
    It's hard to be 100% at this point in the game I think. Though I'll do a little digging.

  15. #15
    i've been trying this rotation and got an upgrade in dps according to the parser from ffxiv-app

    Thunder III, Fire III, Fire 1 till < 810 mana (using fire 3 on proc, finishing fire 1 cast), Flare, Transpose, wait 1 tick of mana regen to start recasting thunder III (can use to reposition), Fire III, go back to that fire 1 spam

    i used this in my last 10 ifrit run and according to the parser did more dps then all other black mage i have seen even the one overgearing me
    off course use the converse thing to flare a 2nd time when avallaible

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Kilz View Post
    So is the best way to use firestarter is to just continue to cast your Fire I and then use it after that? Asking because if that Fire I procs another firestarter you will lose a proc because you cant consume your previous firestarter before the new one refreshes it.
    Correct, I don't cancel my cast to use the firestarter proc. All the animation locks and ability reset isn't worth the time to cancel cast.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zerat View Post
    i've been trying this rotation and got an upgrade in dps according to the parser from ffxiv-app

    Thunder III, Fire III, Fire 1 till < 810 mana (using fire 3 on proc, finishing fire 1 cast), Flare, Transpose, wait 1 tick of mana regen to start recasting thunder III (can use to reposition), Fire III, go back to that fire 1 spam

    i used this in my last 10 ifrit run and according to the parser did more dps then all other black mage i have seen even the one overgearing me
    off course use the converse thing to flare a 2nd time when avallaible
    Keep in mind this "rotation" is not good for a real rotation. Flare would only be used within a rotation if you have Quickcast and Transpose off cooldown. If you don't then you are losing dps by hard casting Flare.

    Also, FFXIV-App is not accurate. Esp if you have another BLM in the group.
    Last edited by Elvine; 2013-09-24 at 05:51 AM.

  17. #17
    The rotation mentioned in the OP is the one I've been using since hitting 50. It seemed like a pretty logical priority system so I'm happy to read this thread agrees with me. That said, the server latency often REALLY screws up the rotation; UI III not restoring the mana quick enough, random interrupts of casts caused by movement prior to the cast, etc...

    There's a severe lack of theorycrafters in this game as well. Hardly anyone feels like discussing rotations and priority systems in depth on the official forums and I've got the feeling the only players actually performing well in this game are the (ex) WoW players.

    Also, am I the only one that cringes whenever I see a PS3 player in a party? I try not to be biased (negatively) towards them. But I really get the impression they gimp the group massively.

    We did Garuda hard today (not very hard, especially compared to WoW's content) and we only succeeded after having removed every single joypad user from our group (in a polite way).
    Last edited by nocturnus; 2013-09-24 at 11:50 PM.

  18. #18
    Can u update the top to show a rotation using Flare please. I know its used when certain spells are off cd. But i think showing a full rotation in its complete form would help the Black Mage community as a whole.

    Awesome job so far guys.

  19. #19
    Is it good idea to let yourself wait after each FireI, if you get firestarter proc? It will apear only AFTER the FireI has hit target. Thus you will have started casting next FireI in the time, but if firestarter procs, is it good idea to interrupt the cast and use the FireIII? With lag, UI will also tell you got the buff, but you cannot use it until like 1-2secs it has appeared.

    I have been personally continued the FireI casts and used firestarter afterwards even, if this does sometimes overwrite old firestarter with a new one. If you wait, it is 0.5 sec - 1sec doing nothing (also add latency there).

    I feel nub wasting the procs, but also interrupting casts and waiting feels bad too.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    The rotation mentioned in the OP is the one I've been using since hitting 50. It seemed like a pretty logical priority system so I'm happy to read this thread agrees with me. That said, the server latency often REALLY screws up the rotation; UI III not restoring the mana quick enough, random interrupts of casts caused by movement prior to the cast, etc...

    There's a severe lack of theorycrafters in this game as well. Hardly anyone feels like discussing rotations and priority systems in depth on the official forums and I've got the feeling the only players actually performing well in this game are the (ex) WoW players.

    Also, am I the only one that cringes whenever I see a PS3 player in a party? I try not to be biased (negatively) towards them. But I really get the impression they gimp the group massively.

    We did Garuda hard today (not very hard, especially compared to WoW's content) and we only succeeded after having removed every single joypad user from our group (in a polite way).
    Keep in mind all ticks and anything that regen, in this case MP, is based off a server time. The server has a cooldown of 3 seconds, so you can be lucky and catch your UB III stack at 2.9 seconds and right away you get your mana tick back or unlucky and just missed a tick and have to wait 2.9 seconds. That being said just expect an average of 1.5 seconds of downtime before a tick. This same 3 seconds applies to DoTs as well.

    I totally feel the same when it comes to PS3 or PC Controller players. MMO + Controller = no no in my book. I will never take a players seriously in my progression FC that does use either.



    Quote Originally Posted by Morae View Post
    Is it good idea to let yourself wait after each FireI, if you get firestarter proc? It will apear only AFTER the FireI has hit target. Thus you will have started casting next FireI in the time, but if firestarter procs, is it good idea to interrupt the cast and use the FireIII? With lag, UI will also tell you got the buff, but you cannot use it until like 1-2secs it has appeared.

    I have been personally continued the FireI casts and used firestarter afterwards even, if this does sometimes overwrite old firestarter with a new one. If you wait, it is 0.5 sec - 1sec doing nothing (also add latency there).

    I feel nub wasting the procs, but also interrupting casts and waiting feels bad too.
    You are doing it correctly, as I mentioned above when someone else asked the same question.. you shouldn't cancel a cast just to use Firestarter proc.

    Also, waiting for your Fire to hit just to see if you get a Firestarter proc is a huge dps lose over time if you do it for the whole encounter. I would seriously advise not doing that.
    Last edited by Elvine; 2013-09-25 at 06:50 AM.

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