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  1. #21
    You are doing it correctly, as I mentioned above when someone else asked the same question.. you shouldn't cancel a cast just to use Firestarter proc.

    Also, waiting for your Fire to hit just to see if you get a Firestarter proc is a huge dps lose over time if you do it for the whole encounter. I would seriously advise not doing that.
    Damn, I thought I checked the posts, if someone had asked it. Now I see the other post there too.

    Anyway, any idea which secondary stats are best (like everything except intelligence)? So far I have been treating them pretty much equal. Not so much variation in gear either to be able to choose things except with materia. There was some discussion earlier about INT, but that is a mainstat. I'd think that faster casting speed would be most beneficial, but I don't even know how and what the other stats exactly do so everything said about this is just a feeling.
    Last edited by Morae; 2013-09-25 at 11:55 AM.

  2. #22
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    The single target rotation can be improved upon by:

    1. Precast Thunder III
    2. Fire III
    3. Raging Strikes + Quelling Strikes
    4. Fire spam until 250+ MP
    5. Swiftcast + Flare
    6. Convert
    7. Fire
    8. Blizzard III

    Thunder DoT is highly important, try to keep a 100% uptime as much as possible. I then would suggest prioritizing Thundercloud over Firestarter and using these procs immediately or ASAP. The whole trick to black mage is to always be casting something and your time spent in Umbral Ice to a minimum. As soon as you enter Umbral Ice III you need to be either casting Thunder III to re-up the DoT or Fire III (you'll get a tick of mana regen before Fire III actually goes off). Try your hardest to only cast Fire III when you have Umbral Ice III and Blizzard III when you have Astral Fire III as it reduces the cast time significantly. If at any point you have to use Transpose, it should be when you don't have a target available and you're stuck in Astral Fire more than when the target will reappear and for you to get Blizzard III off.

    Always save cooldowns for important parts of the fight and always couple Raging Strikes with Quelling and Swiftcast + Flare only when Convert is up. (I would also say when Raging Strikes, Swiftcast AND Convert is up simultaneously).

    Stat priority would be more like Intelligence > Determination > Piety > Critical Hit Rate > Spell Speed. The reason why Spell Speed isn't as important as Critical Hit Rate is because you don't want to drain your MP as fast as you can, you want to stay in Fire as long as you can and everything that hits with Astral Fire III needs to hit hardasfuck. Umbral Ice is nice and all but you should stay away from that stance as much as you can...Spell Speed would only get you there quicker.

    I'm mostly in Darklight gear (outside of 4 pieces but only 3 can be replaced with Darklight) and I have Relic and doing all this on a tank and spank I can sustain 350-400+ DPS. I also recommend creating a mouseover macro for Aetherial Manipulation and Apocatastasis via:

    Code:
    /macroicon "Aetherial Manipulation" (yes in quotes)
    /ac "Aetherial Manipulation" <mo>
    Last edited by Hydra; 2013-09-25 at 01:05 PM.

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  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Hydra View Post
    The single target rotation can be improved upon by:

    1. Precast Thunder III
    Quote Originally Posted by Elvine View Post
    Single Target Rotation

    • Pre Cast Thunder III just before tank pulls during a count down
    I believe that's on there if you read the OP....

    Quote Originally Posted by Hydra View Post
    Thunder DoT is highly important, try to keep a 100% uptime as much as possible. I then would suggest prioritizing Thundercloud over Firestarter and using these procs immediately or ASAP. The whole trick to black mage is to always be casting something and your time spent in Umbral Ice to a minimum. As soon as you enter Umbral Ice III you need to be either casting Thunder III to re-up the DoT or Fire III (you'll get a tick of mana regen before Fire III actually goes off).
    I'm going to disagree here on using Thundercloud proc immediately or ASAP. I don't know if you're aware, but reapplying a Thunder dot will waste the remaining dmg on the previous dot. Of course if your Thundercloud proc is about to end you have no choice, but I would advice to use it as late as possible if you already have a dot up. The likelihood of getting multiple Thundercloud procs back to back is slime since it's only a 5% chance.

    Hardcasting Thunder III to reapply the Thunder dot is also something I highly advice against, unless you enjoy losing dps. Please refer to the "Theory" on the OP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hydra View Post
    I'm mostly in Darklight gear (outside of 4 pieces but only 3 can be replaced with Darklight) and I have Relic and doing all this on a tank and spank I can sustain 350-400+ DPS.
    Sorry, you're no where near doing 350-400+ dps. Please stop giving off the wrong impression about BLM damage. No one can pull your claimed dps unless they are in full Allagan. Keep in mind parsers are not accurate. You do know that there are 9 pieces of Darklight total for us correct?
    Last edited by Elvine; 2013-10-03 at 04:52 AM.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elvine View Post
    I believe that's on there if you read the OP....



    We talked about adding Flare into the rotation within a couple posts on Page 1 also. Though you cast Fire after convert. Why would you hardcast Fire when you have 1 stack of UI? Then hardcast Blizzard III? Instead of just hardcasting Blizzard III right away?



    I'm going to disagree here on using Thundercloud proc immediately or ASAP. I don't know if you're aware, but reapplying a Thunder dot will waste the remaining dmg on the previous dot. Of course if your Thundercloud proc is about to end you have no choice, but I would advice to use it as late as possible if you already have a dot up. The likelihood of getting multiple Thundercloud procs back to back is slime since it's only a 5% chance.

    Hardcasting Thunder III to reapply the Thunder dot is also something I highly advice against, unless you enjoy losing dps. Please refer to the "Theory" on the OP.



    Sorry, you're no where near doing 350-400+ dps. Please stop give off the wrong impression about BLM damage. No one can pull your claimed dps unless they are in full Allagan. Keep in mind parsers are not accurate. You do know that there are 9 pieces of Darklight total for us correct?
    Ok you picked out the precast just to be a douche, going to ignore the rest of your post as I'm sure it's full of retarded shit. Sorry bud.

    Infracted.
    Last edited by Sunfyre; 2013-09-25 at 05:16 PM.

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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hydra View Post
    Ok you picked out the precast just to be a douche, going to ignore the rest of your post as I'm sure it's full of retarded shit. Sorry bud.
    "I can't argue with Elvine so I'm going to insult him."

    k.

    Infracted. Contribute to the thread or do not post.
    Last edited by Sunfyre; 2013-09-25 at 06:02 PM.
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  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by mcnasty78 View Post
    Can u update the top to show a rotation using Flare please. I know its used when certain spells are off cd. But i think showing a full rotation in its complete form would help the Black Mage community as a whole.

    Awesome job so far guys.
    Added to OP.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeatherRae View Post
    "I can't argue with Elvine so I'm going to insult him."

    k.
    Ya I was gunna say, but you beat me to the punch lol

    Infracted. Do not post if it's not constructive to the actual subject at hand.
    Last edited by Sunfyre; 2013-09-25 at 06:04 PM.

  8. #28
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    Stay on topic with the actual subject of the thread. Do not respond just to argue, with no actual constructive information in your post. I've deleted quite a few replies to try to keep this from derailing further. If it continues, I will lock the thread.
    Sunfyre | @FoGSunfyre

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunfyre View Post
    Stay on topic with the actual subject of the thread. Do not respond just to argue, with no actual constructive information in your post. I've deleted quite a few replies to try to keep this from derailing further. If it continues, I will lock the thread.
    Please don't lock this thread due to trolls and silly people. This is here for Black Mage discussion and theory. :x

  10. #30
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    Elvine, you got it perfectly right. I've been doing this rotation for weeks and it feels as clean and perfect as any other I've done.

    You're also the only other person I've read suggest to use Thunder II instead of III. I tried convincing other forums of this rotation and people are "LOL WHY NOT USE THUNDER III?" Sigh. People, for some reason, are also complaining about using swiftcast for the initial Fire III. I have no idea what they're on.

    That being said, the only thing that could be discussed (likely for people who have the pattern in muscle memory), is the occasional scathe that I use should the thunder dot still be on. It takes 5 seconds to go min to max mana so might as well use something! Also, on movement heavy fights, I save my thundercloud/firestarter procs to be used while moving. It uses your Global Cooldown and you are still doing dmg. Gotta know the fight pretty well to make it work out!

    Perfect job. Thanks for validating the rotation and showing the number crunches.
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  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Furby View Post
    Elvine, you got it perfectly right. I've been doing this rotation for weeks and it feels as clean and perfect as any other I've done.

    You're also the only other person I've read suggest to use Thunder II instead of III. I tried convincing other forums of this rotation and people are "LOL WHY NOT USE THUNDER III?" Sigh. People, for some reason, are also complaining about using swiftcast for the initial Fire III. I have no idea what they're on.

    That being said, the only thing that could be discussed (likely for people who have the pattern in muscle memory), is the occasional scathe that I use should the thunder dot still be on. It takes 5 seconds to go min to max mana so might as well use something! Also, on movement heavy fights, I save my thundercloud/firestarter procs to be used while moving. It uses your Global Cooldown and you are still doing dmg. Gotta know the fight pretty well to make it work out!

    Perfect job. Thanks for validating the rotation and showing the number crunches.
    Kusco Jin, Malboro
    Glad you found the OP reassuring. I don't know why people are hardcasting Thunder III to reapply the Thunder DoT. I'm still unsure with either Thunder II or Thunder, but it's hard to "test" if when DoT tick damage is calculated on server side and not shown in the combat log.

    As for the mention of using Scathe instead of reapplying Thunder DoT w/ Thunder II or Thunder, I agree with you and do it myself at time. It all depends on if you recently put up a Thunder DoT from a Thundercloud proc. Players need to know when and when not to on their own accord. Moving is a great example you mentioned depending on the fights.

    I think too many people think "OMG Thundercloud proc, I gotta use it ASAP!" and in reality they have 12 seconds to decide when to use it. Keeping in mind that it has a 5% to proc and the chance of it double procing is slim.

  12. #32
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    Loving the thread guys/gals. Has helped me no end to clean my rotation up and thus improving DPS Definitely will be adding this to my favourites and contributing where I can!

  13. #33
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    Just did some extensive testing between my rotation and OP's rotation and OP's rotation gives a slight DPS loss using Thunder II as a filler unless Thundercloud procs than use Thunder III compared to using Thunder III the entire time by about -4.5%.

    Also my rotation doesn't yield any higher DPS than your rotation (other than the Thunder II/III). The Flare dump method is about the same DPS give or take with the only difference being...ta da Thunder II vs Thunder III.

    While I would agree your rotation is simpler as you don't have to even use Flare but seeing how if you have 250+ MP and relying on a Flare crit to happen would be more ideal considering Flare is our hardest hitting ability. I had Flare crit for about 1.8K earlier whereas Fire III usually gets up to 1.3K roughly.

    Also the DPS was a typo, it was meant to be 250 - 300, not 350 - 400. (But this is unbuffed and I still need 3 DL pieces to be in full DL). Also apparently you don't play your BLM enough because I get Thundercloud procs back to back CONSTANTLY. I have moved Thunder III to be only after the initial appliance of Umbral Ice III and by the time the Thunder III goes off, your mana should tick to completely full (even as the Thunder III drains some) so it's not an actual DPS loss.
    Last edited by Hydra; 2013-09-25 at 08:23 PM.

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  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Hydra View Post
    Just did some extensive testing between my rotation and OP's rotation and OP's rotation gives a slight DPS loss using Thunder II as a filler unless Thundercloud procs than use Thunder III compared to using Thunder III the entire time by about -4.5%.

    Also my rotation doesn't yield any higher DPS than your rotation (other than the Thunder II/III). The Flare dump method is about the same DPS give or take with the only difference being...ta da Thunder II vs Thunder III.

    While I would agree your rotation is simpler as you don't have to even use Flare but seeing how if you have 250+ MP and relying on a Flare crit to happen would be more ideal considering Flare is our hardest hitting ability. I had Flare crit for about 1.8K earlier whereas Fire III usually gets up to 1.3K roughly.

    Also the DPS was a typo, it was meant to be 250 - 300, not 350 - 400. (But this is unbuffed and I still need 3 DL pieces to be in full DL). Also apparently you don't play your BLM enough because I get Thundercloud procs back to back CONSTANTLY. I have moved Thunder III to be only after the initial appliance of Umbral Ice III and by the time the Thunder III goes off, your mana should tick to completely full (even as the Thunder III drains some) so it's not an actual DPS loss.
    Let's agree to disagree then. If you want to pray to the RNG gods and count on 5% chance procs be my guest. No need to lash out and claim I don't play my BLM enough. When it comes down to the numbers, they don't lie. Compared to testing when you take into account the RNG and different tests having higher procs than others.. you have to depend on an average and what the tooltip says when it comes to theorycrafting.

    You keep on hardcasting Thunder III and I'll do my Thunder/Thunder II.

    250 - 300 sustained (peak maybe) and not in Full DL, Allagan or Relic +1 is still far fetched. Let's agree to disagree here as well.
    Last edited by Elvine; 2013-09-25 at 09:01 PM.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elvine View Post
    Let's agree to disagree then. If you want to pray to the RNG gods and count on 5% chance procs be my guest. No need to lash out and claim I don't play my BLM enough. When it comes down to the numbers, they don't lie. Compared to testing when you take into account the RNG and different tests having higher procs than others.. you have to depend on an average and what the tooltip says when it comes to theorycrafting.

    You keep on hardcasting Thunder III and I'll do my Thunder/Thunder II.

    250 - 300 sustained (peak maybe) and not in Full DL, Allagan or Relic +1 is still far fetched. Let's agree to disagree here as well.
    250 - 300 peak? No this is sustained 300 is more of a peak though as it's usually 250s - 270s. I also did the testing gathering averages as 1 or 2 tests isn't enough conclusive data. This was 4 static tests each (16 total) with zero fuck up also over a 2 minutes and 30 second session each time.

    I'll unignore you for the time being.
    Last edited by Hydra; 2013-09-25 at 09:14 PM.

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  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Hydra View Post
    250 - 300 peak? No this is sustained 300 is more of a peak though as it's usually 250s - 270s. I also did the testing gathering averages as 1 or 2 tests isn't enough conclusive data. This was 4 static tests each (16 total) with zero fuck up also over a 2 minutes and 30 second session each time.

    I'll unignore you for the time being.
    There is no raid encounter that lasts for only 2 mins 30 secs. The first 2 mins 30 secs will be your highest dps of course due to Raging Strikes, Swiftcast + Flare... this is called your "peak" dps.

    Most encounters in this game are 10 - 15+ minutes.

  17. #37
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    I'm fully aware but this is just a small tank and spank sample and Raging Strikes is only used once..I basically create a cycle from when Raging Strikes is popped to when it comes off cooldown to simulate the section of the fight that would repeat. I'm not saying it's a be all end all but it's fairly close as far as non-helter skelter fights go.

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  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Hydra View Post
    I get Thundercloud procs back to back CONSTANTLY.
    Riiiiight...

    That comment makes your 250-300 dps much more credible.

    Good news guys, 5% chance equals to back-to-back procs!
    Last edited by nocturnus; 2015-02-01 at 06:54 PM.

  19. #39
    Any suggestion on what skills to equip from BLM's related classes? I mean aside from obvious ones like Raging Strikes. You only get 5 skill slots so there might be some good reasons to use one skill over another, or even to swap some skills for a specific boss fight.

  20. #40
    I use Eye for an Eye, Raging Strikes, Quelling strikes (I almost never waste a GCD on this though), & Physick. I guess Virus or whatever the DoT is from SMN, but I never ever use it... so. I also don't know if thats best, but I can't see what else to use.

    Stupid question: I finally got the parser to work and have been keeping track of AK/Garuda/Ifrit runs- what is average DPS for a BLM? I'm pulling between 175-225 depending on fight, and I don't know if I can do Titan yet.

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