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  1. #1

    Simple Question: Why do you think Rogues are the least player class?

    Holla party rockers,

    After seeing the recent numbers, I was curious to find out why people think rogues are the least played class?

    I hold that it is because they don't bring enough utility to groups and, therefore, are not as required for raiding.

    I would also say that Monks kind of stole their thunder, but it would appear Rogues were poorly represented in Cata as well. Why is this people?

  2. #2
    I think people prefer ranged classes + rogues don't have a tank or heal spec, might have something to do with it.

    I enjoy my rogue but mainly for pvp.
    It's almost always the wrong argument to compare yourself to the highest DPS specs out there. "Middle of the pack" is actually where everyone is supposed to be. -Ghostcrawler
    DPS Tuning
    •Yes, this is a roller coaster. Our process is to try things out and iterate if we don't like them. If the churn offends you, just hang on for another week or two.

  3. #3
    Maybe it's that at lower levels, rogue can be a bit rougher? Having periods of energy starving, and trying to keep up finishers can be rough.

  4. #4
    Are they now the least played? It's been Warlocks for awhile, but I don't really keep up with that stuff, so yeah.

    ANYWAYS, the reason they're the least played is pretty much just what you said. They just keep getting weaker and weaker in terms of PvE (I don't care about PvP so I know nothing about that. I think they're normally very good still in Cunt-renas)

    Mages are constantly topping DPS charts, they've been doing it since TBC with very little change to that (every once in awhile a niche specc like Frost DKs slide up above them for a bit but it never lasts long), and so, with that in mind, Ghost Crawler gives them- of all classes- a Blood Lust? Like, seriously? What the fuck?

    People who say there's no class favoritism with the Devs, especially Ghost Crawler (who is a fucking terrible developer and needs to crawl back onto whatever dingy he spewed out of and get lost at sea again), are fools.

    But ignoring that; Rogues are just kind of slipping down in terms of power. As the game begins to become a game where the majority of players are long time players and not constant influxes of new players, classes begin to become represented by how viable they are at game content. Classes that do well and do well with ease are played more often as players switch their mains to that class (i.e. like Mages), and classes that are a little harder to play, aren't as rewarding as easily and all that (i.e. like Rogues) get switched away from by players as they move to other classes.

    And yes, it doesn't help Monks are also here to steal Agility Leather from Rogues- and they're the new class, and all.

    Rogues have had such a weird, sporadic history. At times, they're the kings of the game and at other times they're a Fury Warrior with less dps and health. I had played Rogue since Vanilla. I was hardcore raiding/pvping at that time, and in TBC I did almost no raiding while I did lots of PvP. I got back into casual PvE/PvP during Wrath, and then in Cata I got tired of playing the same class for like 6 years, so I switched to Prot Warrior for my main (Rogues and Warriors being the only real classes in the game, for the record.)

    So, while I'll always have a soft spot for Rogues, I switched from them due to getting bored of just melee DPSing/Tanks are a bit more valuable than just another dps; but for lots of people it's just because the class is comparatively a little more difficult than a lot of the others and you have to work harder to be valuable. The fact they have no real raid utility (and the only ones they do have are always just stolen by other classes, anyways. Did Hunters really need to get a Trick of the Trade of their own, Blizzard?) and in turn, they're dealing less and less damage as the game goes on.

    Before, the idea was that Rogues were "Selfish" and only brought high DPS to raids and basically no utility, and in Vanilla and TBC, that was totally true and worked fine, but ever since WotLK Rogues have just gotten weaker and weaker while other classes have gotten stronger and stronger (obviously not every class has gotten stronger. Rogue has a few friends in the "Ghost Crawler likes to nerf us" boat)

    So, yeah.

  5. #5
    I have a lot of posts on this issue.


    The first problem, and the most important, is one of perception. The rogue is actually tuned the way it was always claimed- top single target sustained. The few things that break past the rogue are called out as outliers and nerfed (though often not fast enough).

    But that's only at max level, geared, and in a raid.


    At low levels, the rogue is the worst possible guy to get in a dungeon. He quests slow, and his core questing mechanics are a glyph that many rogues won't have (Deadly Momentum) and his "kill guy reward dps" button is available at level 90. Many rogues haven't picked up that running around with Burst of Speed and Shadow Focus or Nightstalker is an efficient way to move mob to mob. Rogue resources are very frustrating- there's not one single rogue spec that doesn't have to run with combo points, and aoe isn't delivered until very late in the game, and even then is often poor. Rogue healing got better for sure.


    Basically, the improvements have dented most of the reasons, but we still have them.


    Now, at max level? Rogues have had serious issues this expac. More than any other class. For instance, the first pvp seasons featured a preposterously few number of rogues. People compare rogues with mere SPECS of other classes, forgetting that you shouldn't have as many rogues as rets, you should have as many rogues as paladins.

    The inability to opt out of many of the rogue limitations, especially while leveling, is another part of it. Many other classes offer ways to get faster queues, ways to be desired by others, ways to kill things in clever fashions. Rogues offer little of this until you are stacked in raid purples.

  6. #6
    I don't agree with Rogues being that weak at low levels. They're certainly not as easy as some other classes to roll around at low levels, but leveling a second Rogue for fun with friends, I've noticed I actually do stuff a lot faster than they do. Also, your DPS is REALLY bad in dungeons at first until you get to about 30ish or so (so, what I'm saying is, is while you do no DPS at first, you're doing low level dirt dungeons so who cares?)

    After that, as combat specc, I've been topping charts with ease and doing plenty of DPS. I'll agree they should get some of their abilities much sooner, but I think the same could be said about every single class when it comes to that.

    And when it comes to PvP, they're still decent (I BELIEVE, at least), but they're also always much harder to play than other classes. They're the most position-dependent of all classes and it takes real skill and know-how to do stuff like Rogue kiting and proper lock downs of targets. They've lost a lot of pvp damage, but gained/kept their PvP control. I think they're supposed to be more utility in PvP as opposed to huge burst damage.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by JimPaladin View Post
    Are they now the least played? It's been Warlocks for awhile, but I don't really keep up with that stuff, so yeah.
    Incorrect. It was NEVER warlocks. Rogues have been the least played class since around BC.

    There was one site that showed locks as less played than rogues, but when the locks complained about this on the official forums, a dev came in and told them that locks were not the least played class.



    I don't agree with Rogues being that weak at low levels. They're certainly not as easy as some other classes to roll around at low levels, but leveling a second Rogue for fun with friends, I've noticed I actually do stuff a lot faster than they do.
    Which classes do you feel level slower than rogues? I used to always roll some low level on a random server and level up to around 30 or so, and rogues were clearly worse than everyone at that. Is it possible that you have looms and they don't, or that you are a better player than them?

    After that, as combat specc, I've been topping charts with ease and doing plenty of DPS.
    Are you loomed playing with nonloomed? I top meters on anything I play in a dungeon, but my rogue has done a lot less damage than my mage, and her rotation was Arcane Blast only.

    I think they're supposed to be more utility in PvP as opposed to huge burst damage.
    Rogues seem to actually really fall apart in sustained damage. Versus a helpless target, their burst is "good". Their control is the same as it has ever been, which is a strike against them in a world where everyone else got free bonus CC. That being said, it's too early to call rogues in 5.4. Last season they had a poor showing, mostly buttressed by two solid comps in the first third of the season that brought sweeping nerfs- most of the high rogues this season were from 5.2 thugcleave, for instance. The first season they were the worst class in the whole game by a light year. So 5.4 could yield a decent metagame, with rogues getting some solid buffs.

  8. #8
    I'd say it's the leveling process. If you're not already familiar with rogues, leveling is a chore. If you don't use heirlooms (or aren't fully geared from the last raid going into a new xpac), it's vastly and painfully slower than any other class or spec. Stealth and CC are necessary and we can't efficiently kill groups of mobs.

    For endgame, rogues are really, really good for PvE. If you have any melee DPS in your raid, at least one should be a rogue. For PvP, rogues have just been in a bad spot this whole expansion (minus that one patch where we could CnD during SD). Watching my Warlock friend gleefully take on groups of 3-5 on the isle by himself and come out of it without even dropping below half HP while I die if I get caught in a stun with a few people around makes me sad.

    Once I get the gear required for KSp one-shot, I'll start having some real fun with the censor though.

    Anyways, I'd say it's because rogues don't make great casual characters and they're hard to level. It's boring/hard to play in lower gear and you really have to know what you're doing to level effectively.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Squirl View Post
    Anyways, I'd say it's because rogues don't make great casual characters and they're hard to level. It's boring/hard to play in lower gear and you really have to know what you're doing to level effectively.
    I think this sums it up great.


    I don't really think it's because "rogues are super weak". It's just that when you play your lowbie rogue, the game is bad at bribing you to keep doing that, compared to other classes. And the PvP arguments should maybe not be in this thread at all- I can point to how hard done by we were earlier this expansion, but how many players choose their mains and alts based on how good they could do in arena? It seems that's not going to impact overall class numbers. You could, for instance, nerf all paladins into the ground in pvp, and I bet you'd still see a suffusion of them in everywhere over forever.

  10. #10
    Incorrect. It was NEVER warlocks. Rogues have been the least played class since around BC.

    There was one site that showed locks as less played than rogues, but when the locks complained about this on the official forums, a dev came in and told them that locks were not the least played class.
    It was more than one site, and the Devs say a lot of stuff. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if most of the Devs don't even fucking really know, themselves. Realistically, I'd say Rogue and Warlock bounce back and forth now and again. The thing known for sure is they're the least played classes by quite a landslide.

    Which classes do you feel level slower than rogues? I used to always roll some low level on a random server and level up to around 30 or so, and rogues were clearly worse than everyone at that. Is it possible that you have looms and they don't, or that you are a better player than them?
    We're all about the same level of play ('top' level, though that means absolutely nothing in WoW) and none of us had these precious "looms" (for fuck's sake man, just say 'heirloom', cmon.) We were Priest/Rogue/Hunter/Prot Warrior (all Dwarf). The Prot warrior, naturally, killed mobs one-at-a-time faster than I could (Rogues can get lucky and 2 shot stuff with crit combos, but it's not often it happens) but I typically killed packs of mobs faster thanks to Blade flurry. The Hunter killed stuff about just as fast as I did, sometimes a bit faster because he has a pet providing a small amount of DPS and the Priest got along as well as any low level healer can.

    Rogues aren't the fastest, and they may tie for the slowest in most situations; but that's just it. They tie. They're not the absolute lone bottom rung.

    Are you loomed playing with nonloomed? I top meters on anything I play in a dungeon, but my rogue has done a lot less damage than my mage, and her rotation was Arcane Blast only.
    A mix. Mages normally do more than I do (I never claimed to ALWAYS top the charts), but those are Mages so who gives a fuck? Ghost Crawler will make sure they're THE best dps class no matter what for as long as he's head content developer, so whatever.

    All in all, I think they're just harder to play and are quite a bit weaker when it comes to DPSing than other classes at end game (I don't think it's a proven fact they're still the best when it comes to 'stand there and do totally sustained dps', but even if they are, with so much movement based bosses these days, who cares about stand and sustain?)

    It's no secret they're losing DPS power, and have gotten practically no utility to make up for it. The old adage "Rogues bring no utility, but top DPS" is only half true these days, and unfortunately it's the "top DPS" part that's false.

  11. #11
    To me the levelling was the most enjoyable part of playing my rogue, it was the only time I got to really play with the classes supposed key mechanic - stealth.

    There was always something satisfying sneaking through a quest cave sapping creatures in the way that others have to kill to reach the quest mob at the end of it. It felt like sneaky dare I say ninja like gameplay.

    Fast forward to raiding with my rogue and all that unique feeling is lost I pretty much feel like and look like a Warrior clad in leather wielding daggers who uses poisons instead of bleeds (not counting rupture of course). The only time stealth plays in is at the opening or when you pop vanish for a shadow focus attack, the rest of the time your character is screaming slashing at legs and being as un-rogue like as possible.

    I can't really blame anyone or blizzard for it though, I have no idea how they could make Rogues feel unique (theres enough trouble distinguishing the 3 specs apart let alone the class itself). Perhaps a Demo style shadow energy builder where you enter stealth/shadow focus on use dealing xx more damage during it by hitting weak points but even that sounds really gimmicky.

    Maybe I just want too much

  12. #12
    I'm about to come back to wow in the next few weeks, and I'm going to be making my rogue my main(Only other time it was my main was during heroic ICC progression). With that being said I'd like to think more people would play rogues(pve and pvp) but I believe that rogues just haven't changed enough. Rogues have changed in ways, but the ways they have changed isn't like some of the other classes over the years, rogues has just had things changed that really don't change the game-play at all. A few new things were added in MoP and over all I like some of the things added.

    But really I just thing less people play rogues over all because they haven't changed much over the years like other classes have. I know A LOT of people that had played rogue as a main since the start of wow, and it was during cata that they changed mains. I can't say for myself but most of the people I knew that played rogue and stopped playing it said because that they quit because it felt stale.

    I plan on having fun with the class once I get back into the game, I plan on playing combat main spec(pve ofc) weather it's the best spec, or not. I just want to have fun, and my warrior doesn't deliver when it comes to fun. Also I just want to play a pure-dps class haha =D

  13. #13
    They'd damn well better NOT change Rogues, I don't care if they're the least played or not.

  14. #14
    Drop the unnecessary cursing and provide sources if you disagree with posted information.

    On the actual topic, rogues just suck to play in PvE outside of end-raids. Doing heroics and questing are just god-awful when you're not really well geared and leveling feels the same. For the front page chart that probably inspired this thread - leveling from 85-90 was easy, but a chore, as every class... but it was the slowest and nearly the hardest on my rogue. I died more on a couple of other characters (1 on my rogue, max ~5-6 deaths on the leveling process) but my rogue was in 410 gear and I knew my rogue well - we've got a lot of escape options, and screwing up a pull to get 9 things jumping at me just meant "vanish".

    That same stealth, the signature of the class, has no use in raids.

    Assassination (the preferred spec for many things) is slow and really isn't all that difficult, even if you're trying to maximize your damage. Our damage in high-end raids remains fantastic - it's truly great right now (check WoLogs if you want, it's kind of hard to pad meters right now - rogues make top 10 even against tanks and primarily single-target fights). Getting to the current raid, though... feels like a lower QoL than playing any other class.

  15. #15
    Just an observation, but in the past 9 months my (25 man) raiding guild has had zero rogue applications.

    Whats annoying is that for some ranged classes being able to tab target practically equates to being 'skill capped'. It feels like you need to play exceptionally well as a rogue to remain competitive, and in many fights it doesn't even matter how well you play since other classes are so much better. Mages/Locks can do amazing multi-target and very good single target dps while also being ranged classes. Rets/Monks can do insane aoe burst dmg, getting a very large % of their dmg on H Lei Shen from lightning ball bursting.

    On the other hand, the strongest weapon in the rogue arsenal is stealth, which is useless in raids.
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Mugajak View Post
    Assassination (the preferred spec for many things) is slow and really isn't all that difficult, even if you're trying to maximize your damage. Our damage in high-end raids remains fantastic - it's truly great right now (check WoLogs if you want, it's kind of hard to pad meters right now - rogues make top 10 even against tanks and primarily single-target fights). Getting to the current raid, though... feels like a lower QoL than playing any other class.
    I think that point might be the reason I really don't like to play my rogue much. My rogue just feels like molasses when I match it up against my monk, paladin, or any of my casters. Those classes almost always have something to do, even at low stat/gear thresholds. Or if they don't, you can usually switch up a less than optimal talent that gives you something to do. On my rogue I spend half the time watching my energy bar go up. Sure, combat would be somewhat better, but I've never cared for having to micromanage my SnD uptime. Mechanically speaking, rogues have always felt rather ass-backwards to me. You need energy to put up combo points, but then still need energy to use those combo points?

    I think they could use a few mechanics tweaks since the class hasn't fundamentally changed since vanilla. Something like the treatment hunters recieved when they were given focus instead of mana, while still retaining most of the core utility and functionality. Even though I don't pvp, rogues just wouldn't feel like rogues if they didn't have all of those neat tricks and stuns they've been carrying around since the class began.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by JimPaladin View Post
    It was more than one site, and the Devs say a lot of stuff. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if most of the Devs don't even fucking really know, themselves. Realistically, I'd say Rogue and Warlock bounce back and forth now and again. The thing known for sure is they're the least played classes by quite a landslide.
    The devs unquestionably have superior numbers in this department. They can poll an internal database, instead of having a bunch of addons spamming /who or whatever. If they say rogues are the least played (and they did), then that's that.

    We're all about the same level of play ('top' level, though that means absolutely nothing in WoW) and none of us had these precious "looms" (for fuck's sake man, just say 'heirloom', cmon.) We were Priest/Rogue/Hunter/Prot Warrior (all Dwarf). The Prot warrior, naturally, killed mobs one-at-a-time faster than I could (Rogues can get lucky and 2 shot stuff with crit combos, but it's not often it happens) but I typically killed packs of mobs faster thanks to Blade flurry. The Hunter killed stuff about just as fast as I did, sometimes a bit faster because he has a pet providing a small amount of DPS and the Priest got along as well as any low level healer can.
    Interesting. I'm a bit surprised, but I will point out that your prot warrior was intelligent. Many random dungeons involve free roaming mobs derping into ranged and stuff, and blade flurry is dead there.

    Rogues aren't the fastest, and they may tie for the slowest in most situations; but that's just it. They tie. They're not the absolute lone bottom rung.
    What class do you think levels worse than rogues? I'm really not aware of one. For awhile, shamans had a terrible rampup, and druids had issues below 20, but now? I'm pretty sure rogues are the bottom, period.

    but those are Mages so who gives a fuck?
    Well, you're answering your own question. My mage dps was, (lol) jaw dropping going up through the dungeons. She was unparalleled spamming Arcane Blast. You can dismiss that as "mages OP", but I'm sure they are not the only class like that.



    The thing is, someone has to be at the bottom of this junk, but it shouldn't really be rogues. When you see a rogue in your level 40 dungeon you should be like "hell yea!" or whatever. That doesn't seem like it would be that hard of a change.

  18. #18
    The Patient
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    They don't have a lot of unique eye catching animations, and the game play is dull until you are geared. You don't usually have to stick with a class that long to get any sort of satisfaction out of it. The transmog gear isn't as interesting or flashy as that of a warrior/dk. Combine that with the inconvenience of only being melee dps and there's probably only two draws to the class: the player really likes the core idea of the class or it's doing really well during the given patch. Blizzard has just never done much to make rogues visually interesting, and they've even admitted that.

  19. #19
    I think since they are the least played is one of the reasons I like mine so much. As for not having eye catching animations, I can understand that may turn a few players off. However, I'm a bit of a minimalist so that's another plus for me. I played a lock for years and thought I would never change until I finally leveled my rogue. Now I couldn't imagine playing another toon. Single target damage is amazing and for add groups, fan of knives gets ridiculous numbers. Plus the fact that while in PVP, it's a blast. It does take some time getting used to things. If you blow all of your survivability CD's and get in a bind, things can get squishy. So timing is very important. I would encourage anyone who has been thinking of rolling a rogue as an alt or even a main, to do so. It may seen tough at lower levels, but once you get decent gear and lvl capped, it's a blast.

  20. #20
    I honestly have no idea. Rogues have their faults, yeah, but so does every other class. We definitely don't need a rework on the MoP warlock scale.

    Also, having a simple rotation rarely means you don't have things to do in a fight. There's always something you can do/prepare for in an encounter. From damage mitigation to add-control to just insane damage all around, rogues are one of the best melee classes you can bring to a raid group right now.

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