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  1. #41
    I think a lot of it is the fight dynamics in current content.

    As a rogue, you are stuck dealing with a very small part of the fighting area, with the radius for the hitbox on the boss being fairly small, and usually the bosses have large models. This ends up with you staring up at the bosses ass the whole fight. In addition, you are usually in a pile of other melee dps and the tank, with AoE raining down on you, so you can't even see your toon. You need to stay close enough to the boss to be able to hit them, but at the same time the ground is covered with crap that will kill you, with the small hit box radius forcing you to spend half your time running through the maze of fire on the floor, losing time on target as you wait for the tank to move the boss and give you some breathing room. When you manage to get that all worked out, the boss will have a whirlwind mechanic that forces you outside the hit box to lose dps, etc. All the while, you are trying to keep generating enough combo points to keep SnD and Rupture rolling, RvS up, time KS to not get insta-gibbed, and cursing when some mechanic wastes your AR/SB cooldown. That doesn't even include trying to work Bandit's Guile into the equation.

    Manage to do all of that and you can lose by 30k dps to a Mage spamming 1 ability and standing back in the clear the whole time. Your reward is spending all those bonus roll gold pouches on repairs.

  2. #42
    Rogues.. where to start?

    I have been a rogue since.. vanilla so ill start from there till now, drawing my conclusion. Rogues in vanilla were godly class, horrid to level even back then, but we were kings of stunlock mechanic and single target fights with good tools to escape. Game evolved over the years and pretty much almost all classes, except rogues, were changed over the times to become more.. agile and in flow with the game, Rogues somehow remain as remnants of old time, they did change, but not enough. During changes, pretty much every class got at least one CC breaking tool and some healing mechanics, not to mention that PvP CC's is something that Blizzard is still hitting hard, thus greatly affecting our core mechanic, to CC our target and dish out in his butt all fury of our daggers/swords. This makes rogue even harder to play. Over the time, as i said, classes evolved, rogues werent so much so its hard life out there for us.

    Leveling mechanics got a bit improved in 5.4 with Glyph of Deadly Momentum, lower energy cost with Burst of Speed and Nightstalker talent, which work in great synergy. But this doesnt help us survive big pulls at all, so CCing one mob so he couldnt pull a pack, so you could kill closer, quest mob, so you could CC next mob and so on so on.. Im sorry, warriors heroic leaping in pack of mobs having second wind, DK charging in knowing that they have baked in AoE, if things got nasty they CAN death strike, or better yet pull out ghoul and use death pact on it for full heal, monks and druids which have heals baked into their rotation... well, you get the idea, every class except rogue has an on demand healing, which helps their survivability.

    We simply function is obsolete way, our skills and mechanics work that way that we should/could and can avoid/reducing damage, thus heavily relying on our Faint, Cloak or even Shiv. We do bring a lot of PERSONAL survivability options, ONE buff to our raid, and ONE damage reduction skill (smoke bomb), but, look at the warriors, paladins, monks, shamans and their raid utility, we are reliability to maintain since we dont have our own heals and, if not careful, we can kiss the ground in mere seconds, while other classes have time to react and save their butts, even healing themselfs, possibly the raid too (monks, enhance shamans).

    With all that being said, rogues are a bit obsolete, really slow to level and maintain, good/top geared rogues is insanely fun to play in groups and outside, everything below that is simply.. pain to play. I remember my first entrance to Timeless isle with my rogue and LFR sha-touched upgrade claw in main hand with Heroic Claw from MSV in offhand (we havent seen one single agi weapon in tot, believe it or not).. Man, even griding those Elite mobs for daily quest was extremely painful to kill. Since then, i had luck in HC Scenario's and got me 2 i516 weapons. Those upgrades, even so small, helped me so much that i can breathe now normally and slashing trough those mobs without issues.

    Bottom line is, rogues are a bit obsolete, slow to level (only class more irritating/slower to level was a paladin) and without decent selfheals were just reliability to have in party, unless were a good rogue, which someone could not know unless party with us, which they tend to avoid presuming that we will just die all the time. On top of that, there is a tons of DPS flying around, most of ranged ones are topping the meters and well, easier to maintain, were class with only DPS spec, and even among melee's were up against extremely strong and selfsustained opponents who doesnt need to take care so much about their health while they are DPSing.
    Skill cap for playing a rogue is higher than for other classes. Sure, you can be a good DPS, its baked into our skills to be so, but to be a good rogue is a bit harder than just mashing fer buttons and keeping your pewpew buttons on CD, you need to know where to stand to avoid damage, and IF that happens to minimize it with your skills, while other classes can pop def CD (enhance's can just heal it trough) and keep smashing the target.

    Warrior - 2 different roles - Bloodthirst (1% of HP per attack), Second Wind or Impending Victory, Victory Rush (if not speced into Impending Vict), rallying cry, commanding shout, banners and all of hiss defensive CDs doesnt require shield equipped as of 5.4

    DKs 2 different roles - Ghoul + Death pact for Full HP, Anti Magic shell, passive healing trough mandatory runeforges, Pillar of Frost, Leechbone, Death strike, AoE stun everything around him, core rotational spell is AoE.

    Enhance shamans -2 different roles- you dont want me to even go there.. seriously.. so much healing by them can be done that they can actually end up on healing meters in raids.

    Paladin - 3 different roles - Lay on hands, Hands spells, Word of Glory, bubble's, lvl 45 and 90 talents.

    Druids - 3 different roles (4 specs) - great survivability as Ferals, trough procs they can toss instant healing touches on any friendly target, HoTs, Tranquility, barksking, Survival Instincts, bear form + Frenzied Regeneration, Might of Ursoc, Rejuvenation, healing touch, Ferocious Bite heals.

    Monks - 3 different roles - monks.. so good in selfpreservation that thats sick, touch of karma, Expel harm, Chi wave, orbs, Fortifying Brew, raid buffs, lvl 75 talents.

    Rogues - 1 role - shiv, Recuperate (HoT, not insta), Leeching poison, smoke bomb, AoE stealth, attack speed buff (enhance, frost DK too)... and.. thats it, our CCs are not usable on elite/raid mobs so.. there is not much to say, everything else belongs to "avoid and minimize" skills like Vanish, Evasion, Sprint and Feint.

    you get the point, we have one role, not so good selfpreservation but rather "ill skip/avoid/prevent/soak that" skills, all our raid buffs are replaceable by other classes and healers need to worry less about them. Next to it, thrust me, other melee classes are no brainer to level and gear at all, i tell you this cause i have them all, and well above i500. Warriors were pain, but as soon as you get Second Wind, all troubles end there. Pretty much all classes bring to the table more than us atm, so, naturally, they are better choice to bring to raid.

    On side note, here is a topic on Blizz forum that i started, these are the bugs and issues that i encountered while playing Combat rogue in past.. 9days.

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/8181569145

    Edit: This is not a bashing of rogues, as i personally love mine and i play it for ages, these are just the facts. If you love rogue trough first 30-40 lvls, you will enjoy it for sure, they simply function that way, you love them or not, there is no middle as rogues are highly demanding and sometimes time consuming.
    Last edited by Gurg; 2013-09-18 at 08:55 AM.

  3. #43
    Bloodsail Admiral Ninaran's Avatar
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    Leveling a rogue is tedious, when you don't have equipment. Even though my rogue went with full DS heroic equipment with the legendary daggers into MoP, I still had a harder time leveling than as a mage, prot paladin or feral druid, who all had basic leveling and heroic instances equipment.
    I mean sure, I didn't die all the time or stuff like that, we have enough tools against that, but always having to be careful, not pulling too many mobs is just.. tedious.

    Combine that with the fact that I've been using Sinister Strikes into Eviscerate while keeping Slice and Dice up ever since I first set foot into Molten Core eight years ago and almost nothing changed in the rotation.. they are also quite boring.
    No big numbers like a Warlock unloading his Embers with all cooldowns popped, pushing giant numbers back to back, no flurry of numbers like an Enhancement Shaman with his Windfury, no flashy animations like a Paladin throwing his Hammer of Light and popping Avenging Wrath and kneeling down to pray and turning his weapon into the freaking Ashbringer.
    What did we get? One ability without any animation at all (Shadow Walk), one ability that's just.. a big, white circle (Shroud of Concealment) and one that gives us a black glow around the gloves for a short time (Shadow Blades).. again, boring.

    We are also restricted heavily in our use of weapons. You want to do anything but Combat, which is not only even more boring to play than Assassination, you better be lucky and get Daggers. We had one Dagger drop in the entirety of Throne of Thunder. I got the other one from a bonus roll. It's insane. Sure, RNG is RNG, but when you're restricted to just a few drops in an entire gear step.. there will be complications.

    Balance-wise, I'd actually say that it's not that Rogues are too weak.. it's just that other classes (especially Mages) are too strong while also having other advantages, like utility and range. I will never understand the reason why the best PvE class across all three specs gets heroism. It just baffles my mind.

    I can't really talk much about PvP, but it's obvious that stunlocking had to be removed. It was ludicrious.

    We just need something, and I don't mean balance, I'm actually kinda okay with that. Give us a 4th spec, a tanking spec that uses one weapon with the other hand free, some kind of Duelist. Or, hell, instead of creating a new Tinker class, why not give the Rogue a Saboteur spec, that uses bombs, poison vials, explosive darts, a hand crossbow (no permament range, just some abilities that use it, 10y range max) and stuff like that.


    Oh and don't get me started on bosses or events that just randomly pull you out of Stealth for no reason whatsoever.
    Last edited by Ninaran; 2013-09-18 at 03:20 PM.
    Ex-Rogue; Ex-Paladin
    Mastery will fix it.

  4. #44
    This is my 2 cents. I started playing WOW 2 weeks ago after a 3 year hiatus. I decided to level my Rogue first as I want to get back into raiding on him as he was my main all through BC and WOTLK.

    Questing hasn't been too bad. There were a couple of rough patches for instance I tried to do the Thunder Isle at a 440 ilvl and got my butt kicked but I think that was more of a gear issue. Timeless Isle while collecting lots of 496 upgrades it still was rough especially when it came to taking on the Celestrials where I would die to their AOE in 2 seconds. Once again I think it's a gear issue more than anything but I am starting to have my doubts because while the new 496 gear helped it didn't help enough. I am starting to wonder if I should change to something with a bit more survivability.

    The other main problem I find is the rotation is slow to the point I am just sitting there doing nothing. I feel like I could go do something else while I wait for energy. I remember there was an article about a year ago when monks just came out. They compared Monks to Rogues and I forget the exact details it was something like over a 2 minute fight monks had 80 actions while Rogues only had 40. I also find it a bit weird Envenom doesn't seem to do a lot of damage.

    I am not sure what the solution is. I would have to think Blizzard would look at us at some point though. I get the feeling they want to but we are not a high priority.

  5. #45
    Mechagnome Zippoflames's Avatar
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    Just want to throw this out there as I think it would be bloody cool,

    How about when Rogues use Dance/AR or Ven we shift into ninja form (Christ sounds bad already) which is the same as when were dead as far as animation goes so during that period the raid is gone and its just boss and you, All aoe/shit on floor is gone and you have that time to just go bloody nuts on the boss.
    PVE only of course.

  6. #46
    I find it very interesting to look at the raid make-ups for each of the bosskills for the top guilds in the 25m "Race to World First". Method is using 1-4 rogues for every heroic boss kill so far and Blood Legion is using 1-3. the #3 guild Duality is using 3-4 for most fights. At least we are still well represented at the highest level of the game.

  7. #47
    Easy class to play, can skip certain raid mechanics, good dmg mitigation, as far as progression is concerned its great. Doesn't make the class any less boring.

  8. #48
    Some of you guys are focusing too much on rogues in raids. Yeah we are fine, but only a fraction of the wow population does non lfr raiding (and to those who do LFR only, none of that crap matters as class potential is rarely the difference in performance in an LFR). How we do in end game raiding in normals/heroics has hardly anything to do with popularity of our class on a graph like the one on the front page.

    We play like garbage without gear. Assassination (dps aside) is slow as balls with no gear or while questing when you are killing normal mobs and don't have extra energy coming in from rupture constantly because 55 energy for an attack is an eternity. Combat for 2 tiers has only been decent with specific raid items, but now it takes 50 energy for its attack. That is ludicrously slow with huge amounts of time you are just sitting there with nothing to do. Not being able to do anything for most of the time you are hitting something just isn't fun.

    Also on not fun while leveling, a spec whose best cp builder has a positional requirement. Now sure you can stun them and backstab or gouge and backstab, but what a pain in the ass. Shadowdance is also useless unless they are stunned. Its doable (I went from 85-88 as sub with bis DS gear), but its kind of a pain in the ass to need to put that much extra effort into every trash mob... especially if you see a dps warrior or something just cut through hordes of mobs at once. Now if backstab hit like dispatch for pretty ridiculous damage, ok fine. It doesn't though... it just far outshines our alternative.

    So yeah, we don't have a single spec that is constantly, actively involved in a non pain in the ass way.

    Our specs also have very little variety. Not only are they the same role, but they all play very similarly outside of cooldowns. We also need different weapons for different specs and (now this may hold for other classes too) 2 of our specs are utter crap at lower gear levels. Thats not just a level 90 issue, its questing too. If you had full bis DS gear to level with, you could be fine with whatever at least until the last 2 zones, but good luck with combat/sub if you are coming into MoP with cata quest gear (and into MoP quest gear).

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Captainwinra View Post
    Holla party rockers,

    After seeing the recent numbers, I was curious to find out why people think rogues are the least played class?

    I hold that it is because they don't bring enough utility to groups and, therefore, are not as required for raiding.

    I would also say that Monks kind of stole their thunder, but it would appear Rogues were poorly represented in Cata as well. Why is this people?
    A lot of people I've talked to say that rogues are a slow class and it's boring for them because you're not filling every GCD.

  10. #50
    Leveling one is PAINFUL. First thing I did after making it to 85 was to go play something else. I was so sick of it. Same thing again with 90.

    I'd love to have an endgame rogue. They're the only melee pure, but I just can't stand their mechanics. My warrior could kill 8-9 enemies in the time it took my rogue to kill one. Worse, if I happened to try to kill even two or three, they usually managed to kill me before I could kill them. There's just not enough energy and not enough AoE to go around. I've heard that raiding rogues can actually have excess energy or hit the GCD cap, but I can't manage to play one long enough to find out.

  11. #51
    I have never done raiding but only do random battlegrounds with my rogue. I'm usually the only rogue out there. I have to hold back on dps cause i get energy starved really quickly. I feel most usefull when paired up with a burster, keep them stunned and let someone else nuke them to death. I do the same with healers. I dont come out to bad, I sometimes can come out with the most honor points earned in a match. Questing is so slow though compared to my pally and DK. I do not look forward to questing when the level cap gets past 90.

  12. #52
    Immortal Ryme's Avatar
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    From the top of my head:

    - They're horrible, horrible to play at low gear levels
    - They have no definition
    - No real spec diversity
    - They're melee, which puts you at a disadvantage in many situations
    - Mechanically, they're quite dull
    - They're perpetually locked into arguably the least desirable raiding role in game
    Last edited by Ryme; 2013-09-22 at 10:49 PM.
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  13. #53
    I think if you look at the number you see that quite a few people create Rogues, however, very few of those people see their Rogues through and continue to play them into the end game. The Rogue archetype is a very popular one in most MMOs and RPGs, except in WoW. I look at the Rogue as it is implemented in this game and feel very uninspired, there is no aspect of the WoW Rogue that screams interesting. The WoW Rogue may have been a well crafted class by 2004's standards, but 9 years later it is simply inadequate. I and most other people have seen the Rogue class done better in other games by this point.

    For example I look at the spec like Assassination and am severely disappointing with the lack of creativity. The spec is supposed to be centered around poisons, yet it uses the exact same poisons as the other 2 specs. The only things Assassination has poison wise that the other two specs don't are envenom and venomous wounds, and one of those abilities is passively applied by a bleed that all three specs use.

    Stealth... The iconic Rogue ability. In PvE(Raiding), stealth has essentially become a (almost) free ability every ~2 minutes. For Assassination most Rogues simply chose to use the exact same combo point builder in stealth that they use outside of it; Mutilate. Stealth does not open up any new or interesting opportunities nor does it enhance our combat experience. Entering and exiting stealth should be something every Rogue looks forward to, and it should offer compelling choices. Honestly, WoW's implementation of stealth for a Rogue archetype is quite possibly one of the most boring I have ever seen.
    Last edited by Skarzog; 2013-09-22 at 10:59 PM.

  14. #54
    Immortal Ryme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whathump View Post
    A lot of people I've talked to say that rogues are a slow class and it's boring for them because you're not filling every GCD.
    I've always found it odd that the class that seems to want to swing it's weapons the fastest seems to use GCDs the least.
    I am the lucid dream
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  15. #55
    Rogues take the most Amount of work for the least amount of return. Rogues have traditionally been nerfed hard for the first 2 tiers of and Xpac and come out being the top dps for only the last tier and only with the best gear. Rogues always get nerfed hard next Xpac because they were "too good" in the last tier.

    Everything that made Rogues fun in PvP has been nerfed, and hard counters have been given to almost every class deal with the Rogue. Rogues use to be one of the most frustrating classes to lose to in PvP because it normally involved being stun locked. So slowly all the fun stuff that made Rogues enticing was done away with to appease other classes that complained Rogues killed them to much in PvP. The vast plethora of weapons rogues use has been taken away. Mace Mace? Fist Dagger? Dagger Dagger? Fist Fist? Sword Sword? Sword Dagger? ETC All of these weapon builds had there own play style and also there own purpose. Now you get 2 or 3 builds. Dagger Dagger, and some combo between Axes and Sword.

    Most boss fights have been designed to stick it to the rogue. You must stack in front of the boss, You must stack for shared damage. Bosses that you can not get behind, Bosses that stand with their backs in the Bad. Adds that you must have blade fury to deal with so you can keep up with all the other classes that have good cleave. Rogues have been designed out of raids by the mechanics and way they must be handled.

    Where is the fun knowing you can do top dps but are always kept from doing top dps because of mechanics. If you play a mage you can stand there and pew pew pew while the boss runs all over the room. Rogues have a lower burst damage than other classes but high sustained damage, this means rogues suffer more than just about any other class when the target moves, in PvP you have to keep constant contact yet blizzard has done there best to give every class tools to keep a rogue off them. Same fate falls to the rogue in Raids, you must have constant contact on the boss to keep your damage up, we don't have the burst Warriors, DK's, etc has so it is much more forgiving when other classes have to move.

    Rogues gear has looked like crap for a long time. Other classes have really good looking armor and weapons. Rogues gear looks like it has had little time put into it Hence why people still look to Xmog T2 Bloodfang with some BC weapons or Vanilla weapons.

  16. #56
    Rogues were played by kids who liked to eat people in a single ambush combo, it doesn't work anymore and you have to show at least some basic skills.

    infracted: trolling
    Last edited by Kael; 2013-09-24 at 02:53 AM.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by rinleezwins View Post
    Rogues were played by kids who liked to eat people in a single ambush combo, it doesn't work anymore and you have to show at least some basic skills.
    I remember Vanilla real well and a single Ambush combo never killed anyone unless you massively out geared someone or they were 10 levels under you. Cheap shot, BS,BS, KP, BS,BS vanish etc.. that was the way it was done. If you missed a stun / CC you pretty much died.

    Edit : Lets not forget Prep cold blood adrenalin etc. A good well played Rogue Could do great things not due to being OP but due to out thinking his opponents.
    Last edited by Valkaneer; 2013-09-24 at 03:48 AM.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Valkaneer View Post
    I remember Vanilla real well and a single Ambush combo never killed anyone unless you massively out geared someone or they were 10 levels under you. Cheap shot, BS,BS, KP, BS,BS vanish etc.. that was the way it was done. If you missed a stun / CC you pretty much died.

    Edit : Lets not forget Prep cold blood adrenalin etc. A good well played Rogue Could do great things not due to being OP but due to out thinking his opponents.
    Yaaay, I got infracted!

    In wotlk, I pretty much played pvp all the time on my rogue and I remember te 80 cap very well. If you picked out a clothie and he had his trinket on cooldown, he was dead in cheap/kidney lock. Was having 2 stun timers really a skill?

  19. #59
    Mechagnome
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimPaladin View Post
    Mages are constantly topping DPS charts, they've been doing it since TBC with very little change to that (every once in awhile a niche specc like Frost DKs slide up above them for a bit but it never lasts long), and so, with that in mind, Ghost Crawler gives them- of all classes- a Blood Lust? Like, seriously? What the fuck?.

    had to laugh at that cause /wave second least represented class according to the chart last week right here on mmochamp warlocks were always scarece untill cata thent hey all bloomed out of no where not every corner you turn theres a lock
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferg View Post
    sometimes when im alone i like to cover myself in vaseline and pretend im a slug
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    I like to glue my thumbs to my nipples and pretend I'm a T-Rex.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by rinleezwins View Post
    Yaaay, I got infracted!

    In wotlk, I pretty much played pvp all the time on my rogue and I remember te 80 cap very well. If you picked out a clothie and he had his trinket on cooldown, he was dead in cheap/kidney lock. Was having 2 stun timers really a skill?
    I have been Playing long before that Since I said Vanilla. Rogues are all ways op at the end of an X Pac Due to how poorly they did for the first 3/4 of it,. BTW Your post makes almost Zero sense. You Said 2 Ambush a Cs and Kidney takes much more then 2 Ambush

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