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  1. #841
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    That's why the harder core, more competitive MMOs did better than WoW, right? Like, make everyone compete over world bosses, none of this instanced crap! Or full free for all PvP with the ability to loot your kills! Players obviously totally love all that, given how those games have hundreds of millions of subscribers now.
    Nice try, giving a super exaggerated example and expecting it to make a point.

    Vanilla-Wrath WoW was competitive. They did better than Cata/MoP. Try again.

  2. #842
    Quote Originally Posted by Kujako View Post
    Nothing in this game takes much skill (yet I know some people manage to be bad at it, that's not the point). Things take time and effort, you can argue this legendary item takes less of these then past ones, but the question is "so what?". I didn't get past legendary items and I'm unlikely to get this one. Others having them does not detract from my enjoyment of the game.
    Of course you need good skills for a some thinga in this game. Heroic raiding for example. Which is what a lot of people think should be where the legendary has to be obtained from.

  3. #843
    You're comparing a physical achievement which actually requires a great deal of time and training, to getting an item in a game?

    This legendary is only different in one way from the previous legendaries, you don't need a full premade raid of players (usually guild members) to help you get it. Apart from that, please state how it is different from the Ulduar mace? Collect rare drops, give them to someone who can use them, help them with quests etc. This cloak is the same, except everyone gets the satisfaction of a reward, rather than 24+ people helping on a weekly basis to give one person a reward, everyone gets the reward for the effort they put in.

    Oh no! Blizzard is rewarding people for time they spend on the game, what ever will this massive games company do?! How will the cope with all the players getting rewards for the time they spent playing their game?!

    Basically, this legendary isn't anymore easy, or anymore difficult to get than say, the Ulduar mace, or Shadowmourne, or the DS daggers. Just more people get the reward for the time they put into it. You can say you afk through all the LFR raids, but hey, its only you that's missing out on the epic storyline Blizzard has constructed to go along with it. Plus, something you seem to continually neglect, previous legendaries were bound to individual or certain classes. The fact every class has a chance for a reward means its obviously going to be more common. I see no harm in it, its still a legendary item, so who gives a rats ass if other people have it, good for them, they obviously spent as much time playing as I did, and I hope they equally enjoyed the storyline.

    Now, stop whining like a spoilt little child, move on, and start preparing your whiney stories and flawed statements for the next thing Blizzard introduces to reward its player base.

  4. #844
    Quote Originally Posted by Kujako View Post
    Nothing in this game takes much skill (yet I know some people manage to be bad at it, that's not the point). Things take time and effort, you can argue this legendary item takes less of these then past ones, but the question is "so what?". I didn't get past legendary items and I'm unlikely to get this one. Others having them does not detract from my enjoyment of the game.
    Skill is a subjective thing, but the legendary being attainable thru LFR I think was the major problem this expansion. Compare it to many of the other legendaries, like the Fangs of the Father, you had to go in a regular raid at least and put in a lot of time, or to the extreme something like Atiesh from Naxx which is considered to be one of the most difficult raids ever made, long story short there was an element of time and skill involved.

    Now with LFR, you have dps that gem for stam and that do 30k and can get it, people that afk can get it lol.... at that point I think the legendary has been underwhelming. Especially when you consider how many got it the first day, I don't know anyone that's linking it in trade or that is genuinely excited to get it. In fact, I had one of the wind seeker bindings drop on my monk a few weeks ago and that felt like a bigger deal then the legendary cloak, I doubt i'm the only one who is in this boat lol.

  5. #845
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    Quote Originally Posted by Basa View Post
    This legendary is only different in one way from the previous legendaries, you don't need a full premade raid of players (usually guild members) to help you get it. Apart from that, please state how it is different from the Ulduar mace?
    You mean besides being able to half ass your way to the drops in LFR? Also please don't tell me you are one of those people who thinks every child should get a reward just for trying, and there are no losers.
    "Of all the animals, man is the only one that is cruel. He is the only one who inflicts pain for the pleasure of doing it." - Mark Twain

  6. #846
    I guess it comes down to people thinking exclusivity is a bad thing. I guess you prized your trophy you got in little league that the rest of your team got as well?

  7. #847
    The fact that you needed a group of people to get you the legendary in past expansions also means that you have to be good enough to do that content. Who would carry you through to get you the legendary? Right now you don't need a group, because you can do it via LFR, which seems to be the main problem. It's perfectly alright to give the legendary, or the legendary quest items, to everyone in the raid, so that there doesn't have to be a group of 10 or 25 people to work and get the legendary for just one person. But you can do that while keeping it limited to heroic raiding. That way every heroic raider could get it, and it would require effort, time and skill.

  8. #848
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    I guess it comes down to people thinking exclusivity is a bad thing. I guess you prized your trophy you got in little league that the rest of your team got as well?
    When my little league team won the championship, everyone on the team got a trophy. We didn't receive one trophy and give it to the coach's son

  9. #849
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    This is all well and good in la la fluffy pillow pussy land. But it's called competition, and games thrive off of it. It's not about feeling superior, it's about setting yourself apart from others. And about making your character unique. Something the new breed of WoW players can't seem to comprehend. Idc that you see or get content, what I care about is the content being given out for free, because it then makes that content pretty meaningless. Would you want to climb Everest if anyone could do it and it wasn't considered a great feat?
    You want to set yourself apart in a world that disapears the moment the electricity goes out? You want your tombstone to say, "Here lies X, was great at warcraft, had seven legendaries!" The thing about special snowflakes is that they are still just a snowflake among millions and if one were to melt and go away it ultimately wouldn't make a difference. That special snowflake in all reality is not special and ultimately not missed.

    I can understand the point of view of not doing something because someone else doesn't have to do anything, but thats not solving the problem. I would agree with you that some fights could use a bit of a LFR difficulty tune up, fights that no one ever wipes on like Immerseus. An LFR fight should be a fail if someone is AFK but not so difficult that you wipe because some people have less skill. It is a hard thing to balance.

    Currently in SoO LFR Immerseus is way too easy, Protectors feel about right, The 3rd boss was too easy and Sha of Pride would be easy if people understood the mechanics, which they don't. Its like they just dont make a connection with that bar of pride and what it means to them.

  10. #850
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    And your ignoring the part about progressing from Kara to BT before you even get a chance at the drop. That alone took as long as the time you spent working for the cloak.
    You are STILL ignoring my point. I mentioned every other person in the raid. All people who raided in BC and progressed to Illidan and killed him multiple times. The only thing separating those hundreds, if not thousands of people, from someone with glaives is being the wrong class and/or RNG.

  11. #851
    Quote Originally Posted by Rylon View Post
    When my little league team won the championship, everyone on the team got a trophy. We didn't receive one trophy and give it to the coach's son
    I guess you burned the game ball instead of giving it to the MVP?

  12. #852
    Quote Originally Posted by Deficineiron View Post
    to what would you attribute lower participation/completion rates of those older raids vs. LFR? anything that mindless the server should have on farm pretty quickly - and why did you need a guild to get swp on farm in 2.4.x? just pug it - this would be consistent with LFR-type difficulty.

    Obviously I am being sarcastic, but I feel I am making a valid distinction between 'farming naxx40 as current content' and running LFR.
    Don´t be confused over the fact that LFR having high participation just because its easier. In part, yes, the reason more people do, and keep on doing, LFR its because its easier. But thats not the only reason, you really have to understand the value of just pushing a button and letting the game sort out all grouping issues. Even pugs are way more demanding and time consuming and most people dont want to put up with that sort of match making (one made by some stranger).

    If players would be left to their own devices, I bet most people wouldnt want to do content thats easier than LFR with the people they get paired with. Its the way of the world and we use to see it all the time in LFG channels, players asking for people to be geared past the content they intended to do and to link prove that said content had already been cleared too... and rejecting anyone who was slitghly bellow that.

    Now, about the cloak... I like that they went this route for this exp. For the next one... do something else. Imo:
    Legendaries exclusive to certain specs was ok.
    Legendaries exclusive to one class was lame.
    Legendaries for certain roles was almost perfect.
    Legendaries that just droped off a boss was not right.

    The key feature of the cloak that I really liked:
    Was a long process that rewarded constant play.
    You kept getting rewarded every step of the way instead of just getting a promise after the fact.
    You got to actually use the damn thing... the hole "beat the game to get the orange in order to... wait..." was dumb imo.
    It was available to everyone who worked for it.

    What I didn´t:
    Yeah, I agree, its too common. Maybe it shouldnt be so easy for alts.
    Some of the catch ups where too good.
    The PvP part... juck... but it wasnt such a big deal... thats more a personal thing.

  13. #853
    Quote Originally Posted by Anoregon View Post
    You are STILL ignoring my point. I mentioned every other person in the raid. All people who raided in BC and progressed to Illidan and killed him multiple times. The only thing separating those hundreds, if not thousands of people, from someone with glaives is being the wrong class and/or RNG.
    I get that, in a perfect system there could of been a piece for each class. But a lot of times the people that got the legendary were vital to the guild, either by being one of the veterans that saw the guild through to that point or by being a class leader or some sort of role responsible for the organization of the raid that got them to that point.

  14. #854
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    Nice try, giving a super exaggerated example and expecting it to make a point.

    Vanilla-Wrath WoW was competitive. They did better than Cata/MoP. Try again.
    The point that flew over your head is that there is obviously a point beyond which competitiveness hurts rather than helps.

    And you are resorting to the usual canard of "vanilla/BC grew blah blah blah", ignoring that the reason they grew was because they were chewing through, turning off, and spitting out large numbers of rather casual players. Retention in WoW has been terrible all along, and the hardcore part has only ever been attractive to a relatively tiny numbers of customers.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    I hate these casual Fridays ruining it for real Fridays.

  15. #855
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    This is all well and good in la la fluffy pillow pussy land. But it's called competition, and games thrive off of it. It's not about feeling superior, it's about setting yourself apart from others. And about making your character unique. Something the new breed of WoW players can't seem to comprehend. Idc that you see or get content, what I care about is the content being given out for free, because it then makes that content pretty meaningless. Would you want to climb Everest if anyone could do it and it wasn't considered a great feat?
    QQ? What someone else has for gear means jack shit to you. Worry about yourself and all will be well.

  16. #856
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    You want to set yourself apart in a world that disapears the moment the electricity goes out? You want your tombstone to say, "Here lies X, was great at warcraft, had seven legendaries!" The thing about special snowflakes is that they are still just a snowflake among millions and if one were to melt and go away it ultimately wouldn't make a difference. That special snowflake in all reality is not special and ultimately not missed.

    I can understand the point of view of not doing something because someone else doesn't have to do anything, but thats not solving the problem. I would agree with you that some fights could use a bit of a LFR difficulty tune up, fights that no one ever wipes on like Immerseus. An LFR fight should be a fail if someone is AFK but not so difficult that you wipe because some people have less skill. It is a hard thing to balance.

    Currently in SoO LFR Immerseus is way too easy, Protectors feel about right, The 3rd boss was too easy and Sha of Pride would be easy if people understood the mechanics, which they don't. Its like they just dont make a connection with that bar of pride and what it means to them.

    Honestly they need to make LFR/Flex/Normal/Heroic all on the same lock out. You can't properly tune LFR for people that need it, when people that don't need it but use it as a method to supplement gear due to poor RNG/a need to get a gear edge asap.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elrandir View Post
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  17. #857
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    I guess it comes down to people thinking exclusivity is a bad thing.
    In a game like WoW, obviously it's a bad thing. You have to tie your thought processes into pretzel knots to believe otherwise. The reason is that people who are excluded are, in general, not going to be happy. And if they're not happy, they stop sending Blizzard money.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    I hate these casual Fridays ruining it for real Fridays.

  18. #858
    Quote Originally Posted by gamingmuscle View Post
    Would I then say everyone found it easy...no. I have seen the stats. Lots more failed then succeeded.
    .
    i have this image of taking a normal LFR group today, adding 15 more (correct class/spec setup for each encounter, of course), and putting them in a classic game engine with MC gear as level 60s, and stick them in razorgore's room. give them 5 hours. heck give them 5 hours for 7 days straight. with each /drop, bring another random of correct role in. turnover alone is going to be phenomenal.

    I bet not 1 in 1000 of those groups would get past first boss.

    the difference in raid tuning then and now is night and day.

    i base this from the experience of seeing a bc level 70 and some 60x's pug try, it was a pitiful joke (and I was part of the joke then). the amount of coordinated effort needed vs. LFR isn't even the same type of gameplay in my opinion.
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  19. #859
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkstarG View Post
    QQ? What someone else has for gear means jack shit to you. Worry about yourself and all will be well.
    Again, I could care less if everyone has all the gear, it's the people who refuse to get good at the game demanding everything be so easy my dog can do it.
    "Of all the animals, man is the only one that is cruel. He is the only one who inflicts pain for the pleasure of doing it." - Mark Twain

  20. #860
    Quote Originally Posted by Deficineiron View Post
    i have this image of taking a normal LFR group today, adding 15 more (correct class/spec setup), and putting them in a classic game engine with MC gear as level 60s, and stick them in razorgore's room. give them 5 hours. heck give them 5 hours for 7 days straight.

    I bet not 1 in 1000 of those groups would get past first boss.

    the difference in raid tuning then and now is night and day.

    i base this from the experience of seeing a bc level 70 and some 60x's pug try, it was a pitiful joke (and I was part of the joke then). the amount of coordinated effort needed vs. LFR isn't even the same type of gameplay in my opinion.

    Well tuning an encounter to require the gear dropped by the boss and the one after it really isn't a good design =P But I bet they would...Only one person has to drive then you just handle the adds. Which given the all the mechanic fixes within the classes it probably would be possible =P
    Quote Originally Posted by Elrandir View Post
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