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  1. #861
    Titan Kangodo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rylon View Post
    When my little league team won the championship, everyone on the team got a trophy. We didn't receive one trophy and give it to the coach's son
    Good reaction, that's exactly what it comes down to.

    Cause yeah, crappy players can get their Legendary by AFK'ing dozens of raids. That is true!
    But you know what? I don't give a fuck.
    I have worked hard for a year, I've healed and DPS'd just as hard as I would in a normal/heroic raid.
    And to me that cape is a special reward, I'm going to be incredibly happy when I get it.

  2. #862
    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    Again, I could care less if everyone has all the gear, it's the people who refuse to get good at the game demanding everything be so easy my dog can do it.
    I see that statement thrown around a lot. You know what I haven't seen yet, someone actually legitimately making that demand.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elrandir View Post
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  3. #863
    Quote Originally Posted by gamingmuscle View Post
    Well tuning an encounter to require the gear dropped by the boss and the one after it really isn't a good design =P But I bet they would...Only one person has to drive then you just handle the adds. Which given the all the mechanic fixes within the classes it probably would be possible =P
    well the example uses a 1.x.x game. but yeah, a small % of groups would get a person to take RL role on who could get something done.
    Authors I have enjoyed enough to mention here: JRR Tolkein, Poul Anderson,Jack Vance, Glen Cook, Brian Stableford, MAR Barker, Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle, John Steakley, Joe Abercrombie, Robert Silverberg, the norse sagas, CJ Cherryh, PG Wodehouse, Clark Ashton Smith, Alastair Reynolds, Cordwainer Smith, LE Modesitt, L. Sprague de Camp & Fletcher Pratt, Agatha Christie, Steven Erikson & Ian Esslemont, Stephen R Donaldon, and recently Jack L Chalker.

  4. #864
    Warchief Seefer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gamingmuscle View Post
    I see that statement thrown around a lot. You know what I haven't seen yet, someone actually legitimately making that demand.
    My big stink about this game is the dumbing down and homogenization of the classes, which has been brought on by the people who can't be bothered to improve and demand it to be easy, it has been and always will be the gripe you will hear from me.
    No child these days ever gets to hear those all-important, character building words: "You lost, Bobby! You lost, you're a loser, Bobby!" They miss out on that. You know what they tell a kid who lost these days? "You were the last winner." A lot of these kids never get to hear the truth about themselves until they're in their twenties. When their boss calls them in and says "Bobby, clean the shit out of your desk and get the fuck out of here, you're a loser."

  5. #865
    Quote Originally Posted by gamingmuscle View Post
    I see that statement thrown around a lot. You know what I haven't seen yet, someone actually legitimately making that demand.
    Because its not as clear as that. But there's probably a thread like it on the 1st or 2nd page of any of the forum sections.

  6. #866
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    I guess it comes down to people thinking exclusivity is a bad thing. I guess you prized your trophy you got in little league that the rest of your team got as well?

    The exclusivity thing IMO is what kept people coming back to wow, and now, the lack of it, is what is causing people to leave. You always had a reason to log in and progress your character and something to shoot for. Now you pretty much see everything the game has to offer within a week or 2 of hitting 90, and while long time players know there's quite a bit more, for someone like a new guy I can only imagine them saying "that's it?"

  7. #867
    Warchief Seefer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    The exclusivity thing IMO is what kept people coming back to wow, and now, the lack of it, is what is causing people to leave. You always had a reason to log in and progress your character and something to shoot for. Now you pretty much see everything the game has to offer within a week or 2 of hitting 90, and while long time players know there's quite a bit more, for someone like a new guy I can only imagine them saying "that's it?"
    I have seen several threads from people saying "I beat the game so now I unsubbed"
    No child these days ever gets to hear those all-important, character building words: "You lost, Bobby! You lost, you're a loser, Bobby!" They miss out on that. You know what they tell a kid who lost these days? "You were the last winner." A lot of these kids never get to hear the truth about themselves until they're in their twenties. When their boss calls them in and says "Bobby, clean the shit out of your desk and get the fuck out of here, you're a loser."

  8. #868
    Herald of the Titans malletin's Avatar
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    While the cloak wasn't that hard to get it was a fucking long grind and i sure as hell felt all warm and fuzzy inside when i finally got my cloak.
    "any man shaving for a woman should relinquish ownership of his testicles aswell"

  9. #869
    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    I have seen several threads from people saying "I beat the game so now I unsubbed"
    i look at it as the diablo2 model of raiding - you have 3 levels of increasing difficulty of the same encounters, just harder. so a player beats d2 on normal. they start on nightmare, and realize the time/effort maybe isn't right for them, AND they have already seen the whole game - this just adds more lethal abilities and lots of new gear options (and to be fair, the gear scale by difficulty is radically different in d2) as you go up MORE levels. is it that important?

    then the player who beats nightmare and starts on hell may find that triple-resist lightning enchantedmobs are just not worth the hassle with the xp penalty, and is it really worth it to see the same darn encounters again?

    most players who beat earlier difficulties will FEEL that they beat the game in a certain sense. it is a completely different motivational dynamic than having totally new encounters on each dificulty/progresssion.
    Authors I have enjoyed enough to mention here: JRR Tolkein, Poul Anderson,Jack Vance, Glen Cook, Brian Stableford, MAR Barker, Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle, John Steakley, Joe Abercrombie, Robert Silverberg, the norse sagas, CJ Cherryh, PG Wodehouse, Clark Ashton Smith, Alastair Reynolds, Cordwainer Smith, LE Modesitt, L. Sprague de Camp & Fletcher Pratt, Agatha Christie, Steven Erikson & Ian Esslemont, Stephen R Donaldon, and recently Jack L Chalker.

  10. #870
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkstarG View Post
    QQ? What someone else has for gear means jack shit to you. Worry about yourself and all will be well.
    You seem to forget that this thread was started and perpetuated because casuals are pissed off that their orange cloak is being proclaimed as a commonplace, run-of-the-mill item. Well, guess what? It is. It's those same people who are mad (read: casuals/bads/whatever) because they are getting called out for trying to make a mail-in item something it isn't. Nobody cares that they get an "orange" item, just the same way casuals shouldn't bitch about that item getting called exactly what it is.
    Last edited by spectrefax; 2013-09-20 at 06:31 PM.

  11. #871
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Nye the Spy View Post
    Because the cloak is brain dead simple to get

    and everyone could also get it first day to 5.4

    in short you don't have to be good to get it

    I wont be getting mine for a while because I can't be bothered to do the pvp part of the quest
    partly true...but consider that I got legendary daggers on my BANK ALT, Dierwolf@Darkspear (US) doing pugs and weekend single night clears of one of the easiest raids to date --ToGC at least had champions and anub could suck if healers were.. "challenged" and healed to much

    and i'm a pretty softcore kind of guy, now...have i bothered getting past sigils on ANY of my alts this time around? Nope.
    it took my monk Hakujaden an entire expansion(ehh almost) to get my cape, in legitimate raids

    so welfare for some? maybe, sure the people who have a lot of alts, or lack skill enough to even do normal modes.

    but welfare for people who have been working at it? it's taken longer than FL staff, longer than shadowmourne, and it can be debated with the other RNG drop legendaries, that those have the potential to take MUCH less time (and the legendary bow wasn't even BIS for hunters...i mean seriously...)
    those same RNG drops had the potential to take years and years.

    personally i DON'T care if you get a legendary past when it was current content / BiS(lets say a patch after for staff)

    it's THOSE legendaries that are welfare, going in solo'ing, or doing content that's supposed to be hard with bad pugs because you have 200k more hp than you had back then.

    but the cape? more points against it being "welfare" compared to every-single-legendary- that was obtained past it's current tier.

    so no, personally i don't consider it welfare.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thelxi View Post
    This legendary doesn't require work, all it requires is an active subscription for a very long period of time. A big part of what used to be legendaries was your team giving it to you. Now that everyone can get it, regardless of difficulties, the legendary aspect of it is diminished anyway.
    there are people who've been trying to get legendary pieces for years on end, so i'll agree with that point, all any of them take is being subscribed for a long time. (but if it applies to all of them, lol you can't separate the cloak from the others)

    let me restate that "anyone who has obtained a legendary, past when it was current tier, got it as a welfare drop, because you could get it playing 1 handed and half blind."
    Last edited by Christan; 2013-09-20 at 06:36 PM.
    Still I cry, tears like pouring rain, Innocent is my lurid pain.

  12. #872
    Warchief Tzalix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spectrefax View Post
    You heard it here first, guys. AFK'ing in LFR is just as difficult as farming heroic bosses. Welcome to the new generation of WoW players.
    You can put effort into LFR, or you can AFK through it.
    You can put effort into Heroic raiding, or you can be carried.

    I don't see a difference, really.
    The world is full of evil and lies and pain and death, and you can't hide from it... You can only face it. The question is, when you do, how do you respond? Who do you become?

  13. #873
    Quote Originally Posted by Tzalix View Post
    You can put effort into LFR, or you can AFK through it.
    You can put effort into Heroic raiding, or you can be carried.

    I don't see a difference, really.

    Have you done heroic raiding before?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Deficineiron View Post
    most players who beat earlier difficulties will FEEL that they beat the game in a certain sense. it is a completely different motivational dynamic than having totally new encounters on each dificulty/progresssion.

    Not quite sure that's the case with new people that WoW brings in. You and I know there's a lot of different challenges and stuff ahead, but for a new guy that beats LFR after his 2nd week at 90, what really compels them to keep to stick around? And considering the environment in LFR sometimes, I would say not much.

  14. #874
    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    Have you done heroic raiding before?

    - - - Updated - - -




    Not quite sure that's the case with new people that WoW brings in. You and I know there's a lot of different challenges and stuff ahead, but for a new guy that beats LFR after his 2nd week at 90, what really compels them to keep to stick around? And considering the environment in LFR sometimes, I would say not much.
    1) you have missed a new meme on this thread - people who raided BT in bc (and probably heroic raiders today) were just being carried. i know its absurd but it is what I seem to be reading in many of these posts.
    2) actually you and I are saying the same thing. the entire normal/nightmare/hell system really leaves a lack of motivation for a decent chunk of players past normal.
    Authors I have enjoyed enough to mention here: JRR Tolkein, Poul Anderson,Jack Vance, Glen Cook, Brian Stableford, MAR Barker, Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle, John Steakley, Joe Abercrombie, Robert Silverberg, the norse sagas, CJ Cherryh, PG Wodehouse, Clark Ashton Smith, Alastair Reynolds, Cordwainer Smith, LE Modesitt, L. Sprague de Camp & Fletcher Pratt, Agatha Christie, Steven Erikson & Ian Esslemont, Stephen R Donaldon, and recently Jack L Chalker.

  15. #875
    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    My big stink about this game is the dumbing down and homogenization of the classes, which has been brought on by the people who can't be bothered to improve and demand it to be easy, it has been and always will be the gripe you will hear from me.
    Dumber? Rotations are far more complex now. Fights have more complex mechanics. There certainly is a lot more convenience now. But that is different than "dumbing down"

    But yes more than one class has heroism, or battle res..how terrible... So glad my druid plays exactly like every other caster/healer/tank i have played...oh wait it doesn't. There has been some homogenization, but it was actually needed.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Deficineiron View Post
    1) you have missed a new meme on this thread - people who raided BT in bc (and probably heroic raiders today) were just being carried. i know its absurd but it is what I seem to be reading in many of these posts.
    2) actually you and I are saying the same thing. the entire normal/nightmare/hell system really leaves a lack of motivation for a decent chunk of players past normal.
    You would be twisting my words sir. Stop it. I said someone could be carried which is correct.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elrandir View Post
    My starfall brings all the mobs to the yard.
    Laurellen - Druid Laurellin - Deathknight

  16. #876
    Quote Originally Posted by gamingmuscle View Post

    You would be twisting my words sir. Stop it. I said someone could be carried which is correct.
    Are you the only person who suggested people were getting carried and getting legendaries in classic and BC? I am pretty sure you aren't, why take credit when I don't even know what you originally said?
    Authors I have enjoyed enough to mention here: JRR Tolkein, Poul Anderson,Jack Vance, Glen Cook, Brian Stableford, MAR Barker, Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle, John Steakley, Joe Abercrombie, Robert Silverberg, the norse sagas, CJ Cherryh, PG Wodehouse, Clark Ashton Smith, Alastair Reynolds, Cordwainer Smith, LE Modesitt, L. Sprague de Camp & Fletcher Pratt, Agatha Christie, Steven Erikson & Ian Esslemont, Stephen R Donaldon, and recently Jack L Chalker.

  17. #877
    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    My big stink about this game is the dumbing down and homogenization of the classes, which has been brought on by the people who can't be bothered to improve and demand it to be easy, it has been and always will be the gripe you will hear from me.
    Homogenization of the classes has been brought on by the desire to cater to the hardcore. The reason is that unless the classes are sufficiently similar, it becomes impossible to design encounters in which there isn't a great disparity of performance, leading to class stacking for hard content.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  18. #878
    Warchief Seefer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gamingmuscle View Post
    Dumber? Rotations are far more complex now. Fights have more complex mechanics. There certainly is a lot more convenience now. But that is different than "dumbing down"

    But yes more than one class has heroism, or battle res..how terrible... So glad my druid plays exactly like every other caster/healer/tank i have played...oh wait it doesn't. There has been some homogenization, but it was actually needed.

    - - - Updated - - -



    You would be twisting my words sir. Stop it. I said someone could be carried which is correct.
    Hunters have their own version of Army of the Dead for gods sake! Oh and the rotations are more complex? Most are 3 buttons and they GLOW when you are supposed to push them! Oh and those complex mechanics? You mean the same old move out of bad stuff and avoid cleaves? Oh those got dumbed down too because now there is a huge red circle on the ground showing where the bad stuff is going to hit.
    No child these days ever gets to hear those all-important, character building words: "You lost, Bobby! You lost, you're a loser, Bobby!" They miss out on that. You know what they tell a kid who lost these days? "You were the last winner." A lot of these kids never get to hear the truth about themselves until they're in their twenties. When their boss calls them in and says "Bobby, clean the shit out of your desk and get the fuck out of here, you're a loser."

  19. #879
    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    Have you done heroic raiding before?

    Not quite sure that's the case with new people that WoW brings in. You and I know there's a lot of different challenges and stuff ahead, but for a new guy that beats LFR after his 2nd week at 90, what really compels them to keep to stick around? And considering the environment in LFR sometimes, I would say not much.
    to point one...have you? there are a few bosses that one person messing up can kill the raid, but there are a plethora of groups good enough to have that person just die
    and then going in and 24 manning it, person still gets loot (since after CoT hyjal, when people wouldn't get the rng drops' the infernal tanks sitting off in the distance / his healer, just tanking em all, or the rng drops during trash, being to far away to get loot, blizz changed it so if you're in the raid / in the instance you get a chance to roll on loot.

    now, the lovely people i run with, and myself included are not nearly that good, but look at wol, take a dps or two out of the top 5 guilds from last tier, and they'd seriously be able to 23-24 man stuff with no problem at enrage.
    some people are 'carried' by less amazing groups because they manage to stay alive at least half the fight.

    heroics aren't that hard, it's all about learning the dance, and trusting other spec'd people to learn there's, fights a lot easier when tanks know when to pop a cd, healers know when raids going to get burst, dps know where to stand (ofc not in fire but think frosty dog)

    i'd say at least the top 500 guilds could of carried someone last tier. with maybe top 100 or so carried someone completely.(just pulling numbers out of my...i'm really not going to go look at the top 500 / 100 to doublecheck...)

    another point is, a legendary is what blizzard says it is. saying it's supposed to be amazing+rare, is like someone saying female undead mages are the best looking toons.

    it's a matter of opinion, and flawed at that...(some people might seriously think...but it's what you "want to believe" the definition of legendary is)

    the ONLY true legendary by people who say "rare" is a ring that dropped in MC, and atiesh. every other one can be considered welfare with how long people have had to get them.
    Still I cry, tears like pouring rain, Innocent is my lurid pain.

  20. #880
    Quote Originally Posted by Deficineiron View Post
    Are you the only person who suggested people were getting carried and getting legendaries in classic and BC? I am pretty sure you aren't, why take credit when I don't even know what you originally said?
    Cause I was the one that said it...at least in the past 5 pages =P
    Quote Originally Posted by Elrandir View Post
    My starfall brings all the mobs to the yard.
    Laurellen - Druid Laurellin - Deathknight

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