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  1. #901
    Pit Lord Odina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    Considering my main is a shadow priest I call BS on your priest, unless you are arguing semantics because it's like 5 and those spells are as follows..........keep dots up (2), Mindflay (3), Mindblast (4) and when it procs Shadow Word Death.......the end, now tell me exactly HOW that is complex?
    Really you think that you can raid well with about 5 buttons... I don't care what class spec you are playing if you are doing it well 5 buttons won't get you close to what you need!

    How in the hell would I get off all these dmg spells with 5 buttons?
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/g.../#tab-dmgspell

    And then there is all the buffs I cast :
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/g...tab-auras-cast

    As you can see you need allot more than 5 buttons! On any given fight I press my 30+ hotkeys to ensure I'm using all teh tools I have and the same shoudl be said for any class / spec if they are playing properly!

    Before you jump off about that being a prot war and not the same as shadow priest's... the good ones seem to have found more than 5 buttons!
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/x...8#tab-dmgspell
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/x...e=78#tab-auras

    As for the legendary... how many people do you think will come back 2-3 expansions form now to get the legendary cloak? Now how many still run MC for a shot at thunderfury? How many still run ICC for shadowmourn ? BT for glaives? Those were true legendaries and you can tell how much they ment at the time becuase even now YEARS later peoepl still run those instances for a shot at an item you can't even transmog just to say they have it! THAT is a real legendary no matter the color of the item and these cloak's like it or not do not fall in the same category... Hell corrupted ashbringer is more legendary than these cloaks will ever be and its only an epic quality item!

  2. #902
    Warchief Seefer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odina View Post
    Really you think that you can raid well with about 5 buttons... I don't care what class spec you are playing if you are doing it well 5 buttons won't get you close to what you need!

    How in the hell would I get off all these dmg spells with 5 buttons?
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/g.../#tab-dmgspell

    And then there is all the buffs I cast :
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/g...tab-auras-cast

    As you can see you need allot more than 5 buttons! On any given fight I press my 30+ hotkeys to ensure I'm using all teh tools I have and the same shoudl be said for any class / spec if they are playing properly!

    Before you jump off about that being a prot war and not the same as shadow priest's... the good ones seem to have found more than 5 buttons!
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/x...8#tab-dmgspell
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/x...e=78#tab-auras

    As for the legendary... how many people do you think will come back 2-3 expansions form now to get the legendary cloak? Now how many still run MC for a shot at thunderfury? How many still run ICC for shadowmourn ? BT for glaives? Those were true legendaries and you can tell how much they ment at the time becuase even now YEARS later peoepl still run those instances for a shot at an item you can't even transmog just to say they have it! THAT is a real legendary no matter the color of the item and these cloak's like it or not do not fall in the same category... Hell corrupted ashbringer is more legendary than these cloaks will ever be and its only an epic quality item!
    Hmmmmmm, so far reading those logs I see 7, I speced for Halo not Divine star so I only use that for AoE fights kind of like Mind Sear which again are not part of rotation, so remove those and OH you got 6!
    "Of all the animals, man is the only one that is cruel. He is the only one who inflicts pain for the pleasure of doing it." - Mark Twain

  3. #903
    Quote Originally Posted by Odina View Post
    Really you think that you can raid well with about 5 buttons... I don't care what class spec you are playing if you are doing it well 5 buttons won't get you close to what you need!

    How in the hell would I get off all these dmg spells with 5 buttons?
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/g.../#tab-dmgspell

    And then there is all the buffs I cast :
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/g...tab-auras-cast

    As you can see you need allot more than 5 buttons! On any given fight I press my 30+ hotkeys to ensure I'm using all teh tools I have and the same shoudl be said for any class / spec if they are playing properly!

    Before you jump off about that being a prot war and not the same as shadow priest's... the good ones seem to have found more than 5 buttons!
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/x...8#tab-dmgspell
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/x...e=78#tab-auras

    As for the legendary... how many people do you think will come back 2-3 expansions form now to get the legendary cloak? Now how many still run MC for a shot at thunderfury? How many still run ICC for shadowmourn ? BT for glaives? Those were true legendaries and you can tell how much they ment at the time becuase even now YEARS later peoepl still run those instances for a shot at an item you can't even transmog just to say they have it! THAT is a real legendary no matter the color of the item and these cloak's like it or not do not fall in the same category... Hell corrupted ashbringer is more legendary than these cloaks will ever be and its only an epic quality item!
    Lol people run MC, BT and Sunwell because all you have to do is kill the boss and it's easy. Sure Mc legendaries require some extra steps, but those are simple now days. Don't fool yourself into thinking people do those over the other legendaries because they ment more. They're simply easier to obtain.
    Armory
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  4. #904
    Herald of the Titans Christan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    I don't think anyone is saying that legendaries (besides this one) are welfare when they are current. But yes, after a patch, and especially after the expansion, they definitely become welfare. This on the other hand is the first legendary to be considered welfare on the day of it's release.
    heh... it has taken all expansion to get, doing reg raids(some heroics even), tanking lfr grinding my teeth because of some types of people.

    for some, yes it's welfare(reg lfr people i disagree they work for it, the baddies that half afk through fights can die in a fire, it's only welfare for that specific type of person) but even if someone gets lucky and they can grind everything up in 2 months, it's still taken quiet a long time to get compared to luck with rng drops, dagger or even firelands staff.

    so yes for baddies who don't contribute in lfr who managed to get it, sure it's welfare, for people who can't commit to a raid who try their hardest(even if they are still baddies) but this goes back to the reason people consider it welfare and not a real legendary, it's common.

    but that's a definition players put on it.
    Last edited by Christan; 2013-09-20 at 07:35 PM.
    Still I cry, tears like pouring rain, Innocent is my lurid pain.

  5. #905
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    Except it's not quite the same thing because there is currently a 38-ilevel difference between LFR loot and heroic loot. This is even more than the difference between Ulduar loot and Heroic Dungeon loot in WotLK. That's why people pay for carries. It's only the "same thing" if you think that being carried through a Heroic Dungeon is the same as being carried to the current expansion's mid-tier raid. Players in WotLK were carried through heroic dungeons (and even through Naxx) all the time.

    Naxx wasn't a heroic dungeon in wotlk and it didn't have any hard modes. Beyond that, not sure if that place counts as a "carry" as people were clearing it in blues and greens lol. Ditto with wotlk heroics.
    My point though was in any given LFR you can go in and afk and win loot. To do it on heroic you have to find a 25 man raiding guild that is capable of a full clear, that is willing to do it, then on top of that have like 100,000 gold. A lot of people don't fit into that category compared to anyone fitting into the LFR category.

    I think some are getting confused here though, when people are saying the legendary is weak because you can obtain it thru LFR, LFR at the appropriate item level is still not meant to provide a challenge, it's pretty much intended for you to face roll and clear it. Heroic raiding on the other hand, when at the appropriate item level is still meant to be quite difficult and will typically take a lot of skill and planning to actually complete. Eventually you outgear the instance and it no longer provides a challenge, that's typically when a carry would happen. In LFR you can afk or get carried at it's release in minimum gear.

  6. #906
    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    The exclusivity thing IMO is what kept people coming back to wow, and now, the lack of it, is what is causing people to leave. You always had a reason to log in and progress your character and something to shoot for. Now you pretty much see everything the game has to offer within a week or 2 of hitting 90, and while long time players know there's quite a bit more, for someone like a new guy I can only imagine them saying "that's it?"
    Oh wow everyone! Someone who thinks that the things they don't like are the reasons why people leave the game! I think Rick should have to get in a thunderdome fight with the guy who thinks dailies are the reason people leave, and the winner can take on the guy who thinks that not enough open world PVP is why people leave, and then finally they can get into an FPS battle with the guy who thinks character models are making people quit the game.

  7. #907
    Warchief Seefer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    Oh wow everyone! Someone who thinks that the things they don't like are the reasons why people leave the game! I think Rick should have to get in a thunderdome fight with the guy who thinks dailies are the reason people leave, and the winner can take on the guy who thinks that not enough open world PVP is why people leave, and then finally they can get into an FPS battle with the guy who thinks character models are making people quit the game.
    You know what all those things (short of character models) have in common? PEOPLE ARE BORED AS HELL! So guess what that means? The game design is starting to suck ass!
    "Of all the animals, man is the only one that is cruel. He is the only one who inflicts pain for the pleasure of doing it." - Mark Twain

  8. #908
    Quote Originally Posted by Christan View Post
    heh... it has taken all expansion to get, doing reg raids, tanking lfr grinding my teeth because of some types of people.

    for some, yes it's welfare(reg lfr people i disagree they work for it, the baddies that half afk through fights can die in a fire, it's only welfare for that specific type of person) but even if someone gets lucky and they can grind everything up in 2 months, it's still taken quiet a long time to get compared to luck with rng drops, dagger or even firelands staff.

    so yes for baddies who don't contribute in lfr who managed to get it, sure it's welfare, for people who can't commit to a raid who try their hardest(even if they are still baddies) but this goes back to the reason people consider it welfare and not a real legendary, it's common.

    but that's a definition players put on it.


    I definitely agree that it was a VERY long grind lol.... I never want to see a titan runestone again in my life. The issue with the cloak is that you can obtain it by doing LFR, in a nutshell. Are there people who work hard and contribute in LFR, definitely. I'm not quite sure they should be awarded with a legendary tho, don't get me wrong, not saying they shouldn't get *any* gear - but a legendary seems pretty overboard when you consider how many past legendaries were obtained. It all boils down to opinion though, I get what you're saying and I think it's one of those "agree to disagree" things.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    You know what all those things (short of character models) have in common? PEOPLE ARE BORED AS HELL! So guess what that means? The game design is starting to suck ass!

    Deadman is angry with me I suspect because I booted him in a LFR run recently lol.


    That being said, I will challenge all those guys you listed Deadman and we will have an epic battle to the death!

  9. #909
    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    Really? I count 5, vampiric embrace is an oh crap heal, oh and rarely do I use dispersion but even if I did it's not part of rotation kinda like vampiric embrace, same with the fiend, oh and I was disc all expac until SoO and the disc rotation is so mind numbingly simple and few buttons as well.
    1) DP
    2) MB
    3) SWD
    4) SWP
    5) VT
    6) MF

    I didn't mention VE

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    Hmmmmmm, so far reading those logs I see 7, I speced for Halo not Divine star so I only use that for AoE fights kind of like Mind Sear which again are not part of rotation, so remove those and OH you got 6!

    And you know its not the just number of buttons...its the when and why you push some of them. The rotation wasn't push this button then this one then that one rinse and repeat. It was if this is happening do this, if that do that...and this was just the basic rotation. I imagine there are other intricacies with CD usage or trinket procs etc. Several times more complicated than say Vanilla or BC rotations.
    Last edited by gamingmuscle; 2013-09-20 at 08:01 PM.
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  10. #910
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    I guess it comes down to people thinking exclusivity is a bad thing. I guess you prized your trophy you got in little league that the rest of your team got as well?
    I don't think it is exclusivity. It is about 90% of the paying subscribers paying Blizzard developing contents that only 10% can really enjoy. Great if you are the 10%, not so great for 90%. Why should they pay for stuffs that they cannot enjoy? LFR and the new legendary quests is a step to open more part of the game to the majority. This can only be a good thing.

  11. #911
    Herald of the Titans Christan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    I definitely agree that it was a VERY long grind lol.... I never want to see a titan runestone again in my life. The issue with the cloak is that you can obtain it by doing LFR, in a nutshell. Are there people who work hard and contribute in LFR, definitely. I'm not quite sure they should be awarded with a legendary tho, don't get me wrong, not saying they shouldn't get *any* gear - but a legendary seems pretty overboard when you consider how many past legendaries were obtained. It all boils down to opinion though, I get what you're saying and I think it's one of those "agree to disagree" things.
    i can actually agree with that...next time if they ever(lets hope not though) do this again, how about a "lfr level of the legendary?" with it's own lfr accent as well.
    increase drop rates...(i hate sigils...power and wisdom myself lol) i can agree on that point.

    @kinneer, what about if they added a step or two that needed to be done in a legit raid

    they develop pvp mounts right? that only the top what % can enjoy (as far as pvp goes i really only defend myself lol, but as a BRM in world pvp that's easy.)
    so pvp'ers take a small % of the actual population in wow, added in with a tiny % on top of that, why even spend time developing titles mounts pretty gear etc for them?

    logic is kind of flawed really...there SHOULD be something only the top 10% can enjoy, since the pvp margin is way less than that 10% you came up with.
    Last edited by Christan; 2013-09-20 at 08:07 PM.
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  12. #912
    It's def welfare to me, I got it an hour into logging in on patch day...wasn't the same as DTR, or Warglaives. I still get more of an excited feeling when getting warglaives compared to the cloak. In reality the cloak did take a long time to get, even if it wasn't gated it would have took a good while. But that's just it..it took a long time to get, instead of being challenging to get, or long and challenging. It was put someone on follow, put more people on follow. Do one quest that took little effort, open chests, tag 4 mobs. You got a cloak, congrats, hooray....I stopped raiding in March, I just got it to get it. That's when I realized how lel it was
    Last edited by KoolKidKaos; 2013-09-20 at 08:17 PM.

  13. #913
    Titan Kangodo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KoolKidKaos View Post
    It's def welfare to me, I got it an hour into logging in on patch day...wasn't the same as DTR, or Warglaives. I still get more of an excited feeling when getting warglaives compared to the cloak. In reality the cloak did take a long time to get, even if it wasn't gated it would have took a good while. But that's just it..it took a long time to get, instead of being challenging to get, or long and challenging. It was put someone on follow, put more people on follow. Do one quest that took little effort, open chests, tag 4 mobs. You got a cloak, congrats, hooray....I stopped raiding in March, I just got it to get it. That's when I realized how lel it was
    So wait? You didn't raid since march but you have a legendary cloak now?
    Do you want to get back on that statement or do I have to show you how that is impossible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    Hmmmmmm, so far reading those logs I see 7, I speced for Halo not Divine star so I only use that for AoE fights kind of like Mind Sear which again are not part of rotation, so remove those and OH you got 6!
    That beats the 1 button my hunter had to push in TBC to top DPS :')
    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    Considering my main is a shadow priest I call BS on your priest, unless you are arguing semantics because it's like 5 and those spells are as follows..........keep dots up (2), Mindflay (3), Mindblast (4) and when it procs Shadow Word Death.......the end, now tell me exactly HOW that is complex?
    Yeah, TBC had: VT > SW:P > MF
    Tell me exactly how that is complex?
    Last edited by Kangodo; 2013-09-20 at 09:06 PM.

  14. #914
    Quote Originally Posted by kinneer View Post
    I don't think it is exclusivity. It is about 90% of the paying subscribers paying Blizzard developing contents that only 10% can really enjoy. Great if you are the 10%, not so great for 90%. Why should they pay for stuffs that they cannot enjoy? LFR and the new legendary quests is a step to open more part of the game to the majority. This can only be a good thing.
    Except that it's their own fault for not partaking in raiding. Raiding served its purpose for the entirety of WoW, to give an end goal for all players. Now, most players reach that goal within a couple weeks of hitting 90, and there is nothing left but doing the same thing on a harder difficulty. And if only5-10% of people raided, they must off all been on my server because there were raids and PuGs going on constantly.

  15. #915
    Titan Kangodo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    Except that it's their own fault for not partaking in raiding. Raiding served its purpose for the entirety of WoW, to give an end goal for all players. Now, most players reach that goal within a couple weeks of hitting 90, and there is nothing left but doing the same thing on a harder difficulty. And if only5-10% of people raided, they must off all been on my server because there were raids and PuGs going on constantly.
    It doesn't matter who's fault it is when people start leaving and you end up with end-raids with only 8 bosses.
    And there is a problem when that endgoal is near unachievable for most people.

    Do you want the Firelands back? Do you want Dragon Soul back?
    Doesn't seem so nice when your raid-development budget gets cut.

  16. #916
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    It doesn't matter who's fault it is when people start leaving and you end up with end-raids with only 8 bosses.
    And there is a problem when that endgoal is near unachievable for most people.

    Do you want the Firelands back? Do you want Dragon Soul back?
    Doesn't seem so nice when your raid-development budget gets cut.
    I'd like Wrath and BC raids back. LFR is unnecessary when Pugs are viable.

  17. #917
    Titan Kangodo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    I'd like Wrath and BC raids back. LFR is unnecessary when Pugs are viable.
    You can't have them back.
    Blizzard disagrees.
    Millions of players disagree.
    Now what?

  18. #918
    Banned True Anarch's Avatar
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    Welfare legendary... yeah, maybe. I think if anything it shows how many people are spending extreme amounts of time in the game though.

    Let me tell you, any 'normal' person isn't going to spend the time it requires to do all the quests to get the legendary cloak made. I'm at 'Test of Valor' at the moment and I've been playing WoW most of all among my casual friends. In a way it's simply giving the cloak to everyone who has been in a normal raidguild for the entire duration of the expansion. Let me tell you that that is still a minor 2-5% of players even if you feel like everyone is running around with it.

    Agreed though, back in the TBC days only 0,01% ended up with a legendary.

  19. #919
    Warchief Seefer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    You can't have them back.
    Blizzard disagrees.
    Millions of players disagree.
    Now what?
    How do you know millions more players don't agree? Millions left.
    "Of all the animals, man is the only one that is cruel. He is the only one who inflicts pain for the pleasure of doing it." - Mark Twain

  20. #920
    High Overlord McCronCronz's Avatar
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    Compared to the past, it is a welfare legendary.

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