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  1. #921
    Ye, it's pretty much welfare legendary. For the previous ones you actually had to pay attention along the process of getting it.
    And no, it's not harder or more time consuming then getting, let's say, Warglaives. Ppl easily forgot that you had to go through all of the previous raids and kill the final boss in Black Temple - and then you might had some luck to get it - twice.

  2. #922
    Titan Kangodo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    How do you know millions more players don't agree? Millions left.
    Because they released LFR-numbers: 2 million people who actively raid LFR.

  3. #923
    Pandaren Monk Seefer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Because they released LFR-numbers: 2 million people who actively raid LFR.
    Ok and what does people who do LFR have to do with normal raiding or BC/WOTLK raiding? That just tells me out of the 7 million that are in game 5 million hate LFR.
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  4. #924
    Quote Originally Posted by Kujako View Post
    Used to be SOMEONE had to put in more effort to put the raid together (I've done it, and it's not much fun frankly). That is no longer needed, thus more people raid in LFR then in older raids when they where current.
    People often forget that guy...
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  5. #925
    Titan Kangodo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    Ok and what does people who do LFR have to do with normal raiding or BC/WOTLK raiding? That just tells me out of the 7 million that are in game 5 million hate LFR.
    Not playing it is not a sign of hating it.

  6. #926
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Not playing it is not a sign of hating it.
    Likewise, people playing it isn't a sign of players loving it.
    Trolls, forum QQers, RNG whiners, raiders who feel obligated for it, etc.

  7. #927
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    Took me more time and effort to farm T1 mog from MC then this "legendary".
    PvE is a minigame // Rerolled from affly to spriest after 8 years, thx pandaland changes

  8. #928
    Pandaren Monk Otiswhitaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    I'd like Wrath and BC raids back. LFR is unnecessary when Pugs are viable.
    They're not viable, though.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    The exclusivity thing IMO is what kept people coming back to wow, and now, the lack of it, is what is causing people to leave. You always had a reason to log in and progress your character and something to shoot for. Now you pretty much see everything the game has to offer within a week or 2 of hitting 90, and while long time players know there's quite a bit more, for someone like a new guy I can only imagine them saying "that's it?"
    Considering there's something to the tune of over 20-30 million former WoW players who are no longer playing, I don't think exclusivity kept people coming back. I think it kept the hardcore playing, and kept the majority bored with what most, I imagine, felt they really couldn't "do" the endgame. (or never even reached it.)

    But there really is something to be said, though, of things being TOO easy to finish, no doubt, and that's a contributor, I imagine, to lots of casual players leaving. The problem being, I guess, is Blizzard doesn't really balance these type of things well. It's either TOO EASY or TOO HARD for people, with nothing in between. Plus, there's a lot to be said on the over-focus on raiding in general, and putting everyone on that same sort of path.

  9. #929
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    Maybe I'm too literal but to me, legendary means the stuff of legend, something so rare it's practically mythical, that's shrouded in rumours and mystery and possibly doesn't even exist at all. Ultra rare and powerful drops from tier end bosses are legendary, not something that just takes time to collect bits and points and grind out some rep.

    It's nice to have something that players can work towards like the cape, and the process for acquiring the cape is implemented far better than the firelands staff because it's far more inclusive and it's possible to catch up, but it's hard to think of it as legendary. It should have some different label, 'elite' or something. Having a series of decent rewards along the way is very nice too, and good incentive/reward for players that have stuck with the expansion as they get by far the most out of them. Legendaries shouldn't be something that every player can get, or a large number of people just by sitting in their guild's queue and waiting their turn like shadowmourne or dragonwrath were.

    Personally I do think of it as a welfare legendary, the hardest part is getting a group for Change of Command or getting enough gear to solo it. I don't understand the argument that afking in LFR for tokens, etc, is hard work and effort while killing eg Illidan while he was current content was trivial.

  10. #930
    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    They're not viable, though.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Considering there's something to the tune of over 20-30 million former WoW players who are no longer playing, I don't think exclusivity kept people coming back. I think it kept the hardcore playing, and kept the majority bored with what most, I imagine, felt they really couldn't "do" the endgame. (or never even reached it.)

    But there really is something to be said, though, of things being TOO easy to finish, no doubt, and that's a contributor, I imagine, to lots of casual players leaving. The problem being, I guess, is Blizzard doesn't really balance these type of things well. It's either TOO EASY or TOO HARD for people, with nothing in between. Plus, there's a lot to be said on the over-focus on raiding in general, and putting everyone on that same sort of path.
    First of all, PuGs are only not viable now because of the way blizzard has normals tuned. They were alive and well until Cataclysm.

    Second, I don't see how you can say exclusivity didn't keep people coming back since once they got rid of it is when people stopped coming back. Subs were steady until they went with the design philosophy from Cata-MoP. Not saying it was exclusive content that kept people, but the old system is very obviously superior than the current, everyone gets a trophy, system. The ONLY thing you have telling us otherwise is Blizzards word, which is swayed by the dollar sign.
    Last edited by Brandon138; 2013-09-20 at 10:46 PM.
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  11. #931
    Pandaren Monk Otiswhitaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    First of all, PuGs are only not viable now because of the way blizzard has normals tuned. They were alive and well until Cataclysm.

    Second, I don't see how you can say exclusivity didn't keep people coming back since once they got rid of it is when people stopped coming back. Subs were steady until they went with the design philosophy from Cata-MoP. Not saying it was exclusive content that kept people, but the old system is very obviously superior than the current, everyone gets a trophy, system. The ONLY thing you have telling us otherwise is Blizzards word, which is swayed by the dollar sign.
    The problem is, is in the past, there was massive churn, which is why it's kind of a minsomer to say that subs were steady. That's not really the whole truth, considering there was a steady supply of people leaving, with new people replacing them, rather than a steady supply of people staying.

    Also, pugs aren't viable mainly because, simply put, they're only really viable to a certain part of the community. A small part. I mean, even in WOTLK and Cata, when things were nerfed the most (ICC and DS), participation numbers for those things was still a real teeny part of the playerbase. There's a reason LFR was made. These things don't get made out of thin air :x

  12. #932
    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    The problem is, is in the past, there was massive churn, which is why it's kind of a minsomer to say that subs were steady. That's not really the whole truth, considering there was a steady supply of people leaving, with new people replacing them, rather than a steady supply of people staying.

    Also, pugs aren't viable mainly because, simply put, they're only really viable to a certain part of the community. A small part. I mean, even in WOTLK and Cata, when things were nerfed the most (ICC and DS), participation numbers for those things was still a real teeny part of the playerbase. There's a reason LFR was made. These things don't get made out of thin air :x
    Literally everything you just said was regurgitated from what blizzard has told you.
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  13. #933
    Quote Originally Posted by Hogmanlolz View Post
    Does that term bother you at all? I mean after all the work you put in. It took some people almost an entire year to achieve that final cloak. I took me 6 months and someone called it a welfare legendary. How could they. I'm a little fired up about that term. Never have I worked hard for something in a video game before. Does it bother you when its referred to as welfare?
    Depends on peoples views. Older as in played a long time-players generally consider anything guaranteed as welfare.

    Back in the days you had to do something over and over again and it was even then never guaranteed but it was
    about time invested, same today regarding time invested.
    The difference is that apart from that you had to compete with others in the guild (if the items even dropped) for that item and earn it and today
    it is only about investing time and you are guaranteed to have the item.

    BLZ changed the game so legendaries changed as well.
    Yes legendaries are 'welfare' today, they still demand time invested though but only that.
    If it is for good or bad, I dont care and it is up to each player to decide.

    My personal view: yes legendaries are handouts today just like a mount from Blizzard Store ie. guaranteed but I also dont care cos the game changed into something different than before.
    Last edited by Bakis; 2013-09-20 at 11:08 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by TooMuch View Post
    Like said before, I am in Boston this week and if you are the big man you claim to be, come visit me. I'll PM you the hotel and room number. Let's see if you are such a hero in real life too, like you claim to be.
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  14. #934
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    Literally everything you just said was regurgitated from what blizzard has told you.
    And therefore it's more credible.

    What? We're supposed to believe in the voices in your head instead?
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  15. #935
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    Ok and what does people who do LFR have to do with normal raiding or BC/WOTLK raiding? That just tells me out of the 7 million that are in game 5 million hate LFR.
    By that logic even more hate PVP. But it's bad logic. It's "you're either for me or against me" logic when most people don't care either way. I don't spend any time at all on getting achievements or pets. But I don't hate achievements or pets and if someone said I did I'd think they were being oblivious.
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  16. #936
    Pandaren Monk Otiswhitaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    By that logic even more hate PVP. But it's bad logic. It's "you're either for me or against me" logic when most people don't care either way. I don't spend any time at all on getting achievements or pets. But I don't hate achievements or pets and if someone said I did I'd think they were being oblivious.
    We could also use the former logic to assume about 6 million hate organized raiding, as well.

  17. #937
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    Literally everything you just said was regurgitated from what blizzard has told you.
    Yes and? I'm not advocating you take everything they sat at face value but when they present you with the facts you can take them at their word for it. The analysis and decision making process that comes out of that you can criticize but if they say they've had a massive subscriber churn you can rest assured they have.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  18. #938
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    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    We could also use the former logic to assume about 6 million hate organized raiding, as well.
    Well I wasn't going to go there but it's true enough that if that's the logic that people want to use then most everyone hates normal/heroic raiding since a lot of people don't do it. But the logic itself is so terrible that I'm actually surprised that anyone used it.
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  19. #939
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    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    We could also use the former logic to assume about 6 million hate organized raiding, as well.
    Which would probably have more credibility. I don't think it's true because it's ultimately an unsound premise that they hate it mind you but it's clear they weren't interested in it.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  20. #940
    When have you ever had to be good to get a legendary? In my experience, legendary weapons only went to either pompous douchebags that had the biggest ego in the guild, or they went to the "loyal" officer who once attaining it, doesn't bother sticking around more than one month into the new patch / xpac. I think its great that after all the years of bullshit I finally get to have one, for myself, that I bothered to do all the shit for and therefore earned.

    The cloak is by far the most time consuming legendary to date, not to mention that a few of the scenario encounters were challenging and on par to those in cataclysm. Heck, week to week, you weren't even guaranteed a drop for quest items needed to complete the cloak. (Thankfully, bliz implemented for Lei Shen.) To call it a "welfare" legendary is to say you just got a hand out for showing up to raid-- something which is 10 times more true for other legendaries to date. Just because you don't have exclusivity anymore does not therefore take away in any form the sense of achievement.

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