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  1. #941
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Yes and? I'm not advocating you take everything they sat at face value but when they present you with the facts you can take them at their word for it. The analysis and decision making process that comes out of that you can criticize but if they say they've had a massive subscriber churn you can rest assured they have.
    Look at almost every change they make, if there's one thing that's clear, it's that blizzard really doesn't know much better. Every patch is bandaid fix after bandaid fix. And the fact that he has to keep saying stuff he's heard makes me think that he personally doesn't know wtf he's talking about. After 7 to 8 years playing this game, I can confidently say that Blizzard is full of shit and incompetent when it comes to game design and balance. At least the B team of Devs is. Bliz is good at lore and art design, that's about it.

    This thread gone off topic though.
    Last edited by Brandon138; 2013-09-21 at 12:06 AM.
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  2. #942
    Quote Originally Posted by silver9172 View Post
    The cloak in MoP actually takes a lot more work from individuals than any other legendary in the past. Wanted glaives? Wait for them to drop! Want the healing mace from Ulduar or Shadowmourne? Leadership just picks you! Want the FL staff or DS daggers? Same thing!

    With the cloak you've got tons to collect 72 items from a raid, which can easily be compared to the others because they were simply clearing the instance every week, spend 3 weeks (6 for some of us) doing nothing but farming valor, and grind a rep to exalted. That doesn't count the solo scenarios. A lot more personal accountability where in the past you just had to be the guy/gal the guild decided to give it to.
    Not what this guy said....

    First off 90% of the people who did the cloak through LFR and don't think it was a cop out probably would not have been able to kill Illidan much less get to BT when it required attunement.

    So let's look at the glaives the day they were available and the work required for it:

    First off you needed to attune to Kara. Why? That will come later. Kara attunement required 3 quests in dungeons. Not hard but still more work that the first quests of the cloak quest line.

    Ok so you got to Kara now your guild needs to progress through Kara to gear up of course. Once that happens you need to gain rep with Violet Eye and do the quest line to be able to summon Nightbane for your guild. In order to do that you need to do Heroic Shattered Halls and Heroic Sethekk Halls which were both harder than any scenario you did for this cloak. Inb4 people claim they were easy when in truth they are thinking about normal mode not heroic when in heroic the rogues in the final corridor could 2 shot your clothies.

    So you've killed Nightbane for the Blazing Signet he drops. Why? Because you need Vashj's vial. Well hold on you can't get into SSC still.... that's right you need to kill Gruul for his signet and have ventured twice into heroic slave pens.

    So Gruul is dead and now your guild has to progress through SSC. You finally kill Vashj and get her vial yay! Wait a second.... there's 2 vials..... that's right you need to get into Tempest Keep and get Kael's vial. Hold on I think there's a problem with that..... another attunement.

    To get into TK you needed to do a 30 quest long chain that required a group in many parts which culminated in 3 quests in what are the 4 hardest BC heroics(short of BM maybe) which in doing these 3 quests you actually made the heroics harder with exception of the 2 items from SV and SL. Once you did all of that you had to kill Magtheridon.

    Yay you're in TK. Now you have to get to Kael and kill him for his vial. At least in progressing through TK you get 1 item you need in order to get into BT which drops off the first boss of TK.

    So your guild finally killed Kael yay. You have your two vials..... ummm hold on the vials are for MH not BT...... That's right you need the phylactery from the lich in MH. Luckily he's a relatively easy kill and the first boss.

    Well now you've killed Raz and you've killed A'lar. You can enter BT. Hmmmmm in order to pass Mother you need to have your guild in a high Shadow Res. Looks like while you farm for the hearts of darkness you need for the gear you can farm for gear from the bosses assuming your guild can down them. So you get SR up and you beat mother and you bit by bit after toiling get the bosses on farm. Oh yeah Illidan pre nerf was not a cake walk. You may be able to get a glaive or hell both can drop on your first kill, but who ever killed him in 1 attempt when it was relevant content? That's right Illidan outclassed most of today's bosses on heroic much less normal or LFR.

    Do not give me that garbage that you worked any harder to get this welfare cloak than anyone did for glaives.

    Oh and by the way there was no catch up gear until SWP was released.
    Last edited by purebalance; 2013-09-21 at 12:37 AM.

  3. #943
    The cloak in MoP actually takes a lot more work from individuals than any other legendary in the past.
    I will skip making fun of this poster simply by acknowledging that said player never ever played TBC or even Wrath

  4. #944
    Time put in? It's 10-20 hours of actual play-time depending on rng, probably not the latter if you join during SoO as the drop rates are increased. You didn't work hard for it, you just weren't able to do it quick because of how limited you are per week.

  5. #945
    Better question, who cares?

    I've been doing the legendary questline since 5.0 on my main so its nice to be rewarded for all the work/grinding throughout four patches. People wanna call it a "welfare" because non-hardcore raiders can get it? Well go for it? Whatever helps the elitist A holes sleep at night.

    I got mine the day after 5.4 hit and Im stoked to wear it and tear sh!t up with the procs <3

    Semi-Off Topic; What makes the other legenaries so special and awesome? Random drop rates must be hard I guess... xD
    "If the people who are trying to destroy this world aren't taking a day off, then why should I?"

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  6. #946
    While I'm at it let's look at a couple of others too.

    Do I need to even get into Atiesh? 40 drops from naxx 40. Not guaranteed off every boss. A raid that outclassed normal and LFR of the current day and age without blinking an eye. 1 drop from the final boss of AQ40 and 1 drop from the final boss in Naxx 40. Then a boss in a 5 man that puts to shame anything you had to do for this cloak in terms of difficulty by far.

    Valanyr. 30 drops which had a lower drop rate than any of the pieces you had to collect even if you were doing the bosses on hard modes. The only 100% drop was Yogg saron. Then the requirement of hard mode(not super hard just hard) yogg saron. Not a single other legendary to date required hard/heroic mode as a completion criteria for the raid it is found in.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MagicBanana View Post
    Better question, who cares?

    I've been doing the legendary questline since 5.0 on my main so its nice to be rewarded for all the work/grinding throughout four patches. People wanna call it a "welfare" because non-hardcore raiders can get it? Well go for it? Whatever helps the elitist A holes sleep at night.

    I got mine the day after 5.4 hit and Im stoked to wear it and tear sh!t up with the procs <3

    Semi-Off Topic; What makes the other legenaries so special and awesome? Random drop rates must be hard I guess... xD
    Semi on topic: Getting to said RNG drops was harder than this welfare legendary.

    Also it has nothing to do with hardcore. As I've said in many other threads this is bad vs decent players. Bads are handed these by the boatload. Just like people standing in the welfare line who can't do 1+1. They "worked hard" afk in LFR.

  7. #947
    Quote Originally Posted by purebalance View Post
    Not what this guy said....

    First off 90% of the people who did the cloak through LFR and don't think it was a cop out probably would not have been able to kill Illidan much less get to BT when it required attunement.

    So let's look at the glaives the day they were available and the work required for it:

    First off you needed to attune to Kara. Why? That will come later. Kara attunement required 3 quests in dungeons. Not hard but still more work that the first quests of the cloak quest line.

    Ok so you got to Kara now your guild needs to progress through Kara to gear up of course. Once that happens you need to gain rep with Violet Eye and do the quest line to be able to summon Nightbane for your guild. In order to do that you need to do Heroic Shattered Halls and Heroic Sethekk Halls which were both harder than any scenario you did for this cloak. Inb4 people claim they were easy when in truth they are thinking about normal mode not heroic when in heroic the rogues in the final corridor could 2 shot your clothies.

    So you've killed Nightbane for the Blazing Signet he drops. Why? Because you need Vashj's vial. Well hold on you can't get into SSC still.... that's right you need to kill Gruul for his signet and have ventured twice into heroic slave pens.

    So Gruul is dead and now your guild has to progress through SSC. You finally kill Vashj and get her vial yay! Wait a second.... there's 2 vials..... that's right you need to get into Tempest Keep and get Kael's vial. Hold on I think there's a problem with that..... another attunement.

    To get into TK you needed to do a 30 quest long chain that required a group in many parts which culminated in 3 quests in what are the 4 hardest BC heroics(short of BM maybe) which in doing these 3 quests you actually made the heroics harder with exception of the 2 items from SV and SL. Once you did all of that you had to kill Magtheridon.

    Yay you're in TK. Now you have to get to Kael and kill him for his vial. At least in progressing through TK you get 1 item you need in order to get into BT which drops off the first boss of TK.

    So your guild finally killed Kael yay. You have your two vials..... ummm hold on the vials are for MH not BT...... That's right you need the phylactery from the lich in MH. Luckily he's a relatively easy kill and the first boss.

    Well now you've killed Raz and you've killed A'lar. You can enter BT. Hmmmmm in order to pass Mother you need to have your guild in a high Shadow Res. Looks like while you farm for the hearts of darkness you need for the gear you can farm for gear from the bosses assuming your guild can down them. So you get SR up and you beat mother and you bit by bit after toiling get the bosses on farm. Oh yeah Illidan pre nerf was not a cake walk. You may be able to get a glaive or hell both can drop on your first kill, but who ever killed him in 1 attempt when it was relevant content? That's right Illidan outclassed most of today's bosses on heroic much less normal or LFR.

    Do not give me that garbage that you worked any harder to get this welfare cloak than anyone did for glaives.

    Oh and by the way there was no catch up gear until SWP was released.
    someone who actually knows what they are talking about!

    I remain mystified by the comparisons of time on the cloak vs. anything from classic/bc. getting atiesh or glaives damn near required part-time job dedication to the game for who knows how long.
    Authors I have enjoyed enough to mention here: JRR Tolkein, Poul Anderson,Jack Vance, Glen Cook, Brian Stableford, MAR Barker, Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle, John Steakley, Joe Abercrombie, Robert Silverberg, the norse sagas, CJ Cherryh, PG Wodehouse, Clark Ashton Smith, Alastair Reynolds, Cordwainer Smith, LE Modesitt, L. Sprague de Camp & Fletcher Pratt, Agatha Christie, Steven Erikson & Ian Esslemont, Stephen R Donaldon, and recently Jack L Chalker.

  8. #948
    Quote Originally Posted by purebalance View Post
    Also it has nothing to do with hardcore. As I've said in many other threads this is bad vs decent players. Bads are handed these by the boatload. Just like people standing in the welfare line who can't do 1+1. They "worked hard" afk in LFR.
    It shouldn't be about the statistical data of how many players have it but more about what type of player is capable of obtaining.

    If I played my ass off for something and I know there was no other way, then my reward would feel more gratifying.
    If I played my ass off for something which is highly UNnecessary then my reward feels just as gratifying as if I had done it on the lowest required level of performance.

    Either way I'm getting a Legendary and I'll be happy but it's a matter of how intense that feeling can hold me.

    A meal cooked by a chef and a meal cooked by you personally will both satiate your apetite but the personally cooked meal will have added fulfillment.

  9. #949
    All I hear is from people whining about cape being easy "QQ I don't get to be a special snowflake"

    So the DS daggers... Because I'm not a rogue, nor have a rogue above lvl 30, I don't get a legendary... or even get to do a legendary quest, FL staff? Again, not a caster, so again I don't get a legendary item. Because I'm not the right class, I don't get a legendary. Not because I didn't raid or put the time into getting the item, not because I'm bad, but because I'm not the right class. However, NOW anyone can get a legendary as long as they put the time into getting the cloak. I've been on those stupid legendary quests since I hit 90, and now that time I've spent raiding, pvpin, farmin rep, I get a cloak. Finally, I get a legendary.

    I like the legendary questline blizz did this xpac. Only thing I would consider changing would be the drops be in normal/heroics. Add to the "ooooooooh aaaaaaaaah," the mystique, the epicness of having the cloak. However, I'm fine with other people having the cloak. I didn't get my cloak to show off to other people, I got it cause it is the best damn piece of gear in the game for my toon.

  10. #950
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    I too, feel that a single lucky drop is far less of a welfare legendary than something that requires:

    -74 raid boss kills (considering impossibly perfect RNG. You'll easily kill 2x this amount of bosses to meet the requirements)
    -Exalted NPC status
    -3000 valor points
    -2 pvp wins
    -1 group kill (pre-nerf)
    -A seperate series of quests and tasks on an IoT
    -One world boss kill
    -Completion of one solo encounter

    In contrast, I'm quite sure no one was ever carried to Warglaives or Thori'dal. Or Shadowmourne, for that matter.

    *cough*
    Just quoting this to make sure people who go to the last page can see it.

    My words.

  11. #951
    At least this has a definite progression, whereby there is a return based on your results.
    Not relying on sheer dumb luck which can deny the legendary to someone far more worthy of having it, and instead give it to someone several tiers or an expansion later when it is no longer relevant.
    That term is like many thrown around as an insult by arrogant people, those who believe "epic should be epic" when in reality it was never that.
    There were world drops, there are multiple tiers of epics.
    Therefore the rarity ceased to be a meaningful measure as soon as there was more than 1 tier of epics, or anything else.
    The source for that to be meaningful should be in 1 place only, not multiple.

    A random drop determined by good or back luck only is way more "welfare" than this, since your first kill and kill of only that single boss is capable of awarding it.
    Can you skip every other part of this in the same way ? No.
    Last edited by ComputerNerd; 2013-09-21 at 03:15 AM.

  12. #952
    Quote Originally Posted by Milkwolfgang View Post
    Just quoting this to make sure people who go to the last page can see it.

    My words.
    So basically, do everything in the game once. Grats?
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  13. #953
    Quote Originally Posted by ComputerNerd View Post
    A random drop determined by good or back luck only is way more "welfare" than this, since your first kill and kill of only that single boss is capable of awarding it.
    Can you skip every other part of this in the same way ? No.
    What part of "you can get the cloak from LFR" don't you understand?

    Like, get over it guys, the Legendary is a piece of cake to get compared to any other.
    I know you had to farm a ton of bosses but remember you didn't have to set foot inside Normal modes.
    Also don't leave out that most of the "work" you did yielded other rewards.
    So when you divide the amount of "effort" you think you put in by the reward, don't exclude the Meta gems and epic cloak.

  14. #954
    The Patient
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hinansho View Post
    Just ignore it. These are the people who have nothing better to do than sit around in Shrine dual wielding the shard's they got last month.
    This. Don't listen to that. If something like that bothers you then i would how you would hold up against the idiot heroic raiders on my server that think everyone "underneath" them have "downs" and are better off Ending it because they are "worthless" in trade chat ( Its hard to believe people say stuff like this just because most people cant make it to heroic raiding, Disgusting )
    GC : Reclaimer, Everything you say is real and I respect you because you tell it.
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  15. #955
    Quote Originally Posted by purebalance View Post
    Bads are handed these by the boatload. Just like people standing in the welfare line who can't do 1+1. They "worked hard" afk in LFR.
    Anyone can afk thru an lfr, most dont now a days, at least from my experience, many afkers get voted out almost instantly. And if you actually did the entire questline, there is a lot more to it than just afking thru lfr for random drops.

    I honestly think blizzard did a great job with the quest line and is not getting enough credit for their hardwork. Im not saying its the best quest line ever, Im just saying if you really look at each quest from start to finish it is A HELL OF A LOT more interesting than farming Illidan in BT or KJ in Sunwell for months til you get "lucky". Thats just stupid in comparison.
    "If the people who are trying to destroy this world aren't taking a day off, then why should I?"

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  16. #956
    Mechagnome Zatetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    But it has to do with making that item mean something, when everyone has it, it's meaningless. The back slot might as well not even exist after 5.4 because it's the same for everyone.
    Every tier prior to this the back slot has been identical for every raider. Their respective BIS cloak.

    As with legendary weapons since shadowmourne. They have been BiS and every person who could wield them worked towards them.

  17. #957
    Epic! twistedsista's Avatar
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    how can people call it welfare?
    is it because it finally allows everyone the chance of getting a legendary & the special snowflakes that used - yes, used - other guildies or pugs to get their legendary weapons, are the one's that are really upset? you can call it teamwork all you like, but imo thats bs.
    the legendary weapons that ppl got in the past were as a direct result of others, lets not forget that fact.

  18. #958
    Pandaren Monk
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    Ehh I don't really care, an upgrade is an upgrade, Orange, purple they're just colors to me, all I care about are the numbers. I have my cloak hidden in hopes it would have turned off that irritating visual effect Honestly I can't wait for the next expansion so I can get rid of the damn thing, as it is I only put it on for raids.

  19. #959
    The Unstoppable Force N-aix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twistedsista View Post
    how can people call it welfare?
    is it because it finally allows everyone the chance of getting a legendary & the special snowflakes that used - yes, used - other guildies or pugs to get their legendary weapons, are the one's that are really upset? you can call it teamwork all you like, but imo thats bs.
    the legendary weapons that ppl got in the past were as a direct result of others, lets not forget that fact.
    Oh enough because IT'S NOT A LEGENDARY lets define legendary hell you define it right now do it.

  20. #960
    Quote Originally Posted by purebalance View Post
    Not what this guy said....
    So - a guild does crap loads of work, then one person gets a nice shiny = real legendary ?
    An individual does the same amount of work as that one person did and gets nice shiny = welfare legendary ?

    Clear now. Real legendary requires you to be carried by goods, welfare legendary requires you to be carried by bads.

    Makes sense now.

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