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  1. #901
    Deleted
    Took me more time and effort to farm T1 mog from MC then this "legendary".

  2. #902
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    I'd like Wrath and BC raids back. LFR is unnecessary when Pugs are viable.
    They're not viable, though.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    The exclusivity thing IMO is what kept people coming back to wow, and now, the lack of it, is what is causing people to leave. You always had a reason to log in and progress your character and something to shoot for. Now you pretty much see everything the game has to offer within a week or 2 of hitting 90, and while long time players know there's quite a bit more, for someone like a new guy I can only imagine them saying "that's it?"
    Considering there's something to the tune of over 20-30 million former WoW players who are no longer playing, I don't think exclusivity kept people coming back. I think it kept the hardcore playing, and kept the majority bored with what most, I imagine, felt they really couldn't "do" the endgame. (or never even reached it.)

    But there really is something to be said, though, of things being TOO easy to finish, no doubt, and that's a contributor, I imagine, to lots of casual players leaving. The problem being, I guess, is Blizzard doesn't really balance these type of things well. It's either TOO EASY or TOO HARD for people, with nothing in between. Plus, there's a lot to be said on the over-focus on raiding in general, and putting everyone on that same sort of path.

  3. #903
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    Maybe I'm too literal but to me, legendary means the stuff of legend, something so rare it's practically mythical, that's shrouded in rumours and mystery and possibly doesn't even exist at all. Ultra rare and powerful drops from tier end bosses are legendary, not something that just takes time to collect bits and points and grind out some rep.

    It's nice to have something that players can work towards like the cape, and the process for acquiring the cape is implemented far better than the firelands staff because it's far more inclusive and it's possible to catch up, but it's hard to think of it as legendary. It should have some different label, 'elite' or something. Having a series of decent rewards along the way is very nice too, and good incentive/reward for players that have stuck with the expansion as they get by far the most out of them. Legendaries shouldn't be something that every player can get, or a large number of people just by sitting in their guild's queue and waiting their turn like shadowmourne or dragonwrath were.

    Personally I do think of it as a welfare legendary, the hardest part is getting a group for Change of Command or getting enough gear to solo it. I don't understand the argument that afking in LFR for tokens, etc, is hard work and effort while killing eg Illidan while he was current content was trivial.

  4. #904
    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    They're not viable, though.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Considering there's something to the tune of over 20-30 million former WoW players who are no longer playing, I don't think exclusivity kept people coming back. I think it kept the hardcore playing, and kept the majority bored with what most, I imagine, felt they really couldn't "do" the endgame. (or never even reached it.)

    But there really is something to be said, though, of things being TOO easy to finish, no doubt, and that's a contributor, I imagine, to lots of casual players leaving. The problem being, I guess, is Blizzard doesn't really balance these type of things well. It's either TOO EASY or TOO HARD for people, with nothing in between. Plus, there's a lot to be said on the over-focus on raiding in general, and putting everyone on that same sort of path.
    First of all, PuGs are only not viable now because of the way blizzard has normals tuned. They were alive and well until Cataclysm.

    Second, I don't see how you can say exclusivity didn't keep people coming back since once they got rid of it is when people stopped coming back. Subs were steady until they went with the design philosophy from Cata-MoP. Not saying it was exclusive content that kept people, but the old system is very obviously superior than the current, everyone gets a trophy, system. The ONLY thing you have telling us otherwise is Blizzards word, which is swayed by the dollar sign.
    Last edited by Dormie; 2013-09-20 at 10:46 PM.

  5. #905
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    First of all, PuGs are only not viable now because of the way blizzard has normals tuned. They were alive and well until Cataclysm.

    Second, I don't see how you can say exclusivity didn't keep people coming back since once they got rid of it is when people stopped coming back. Subs were steady until they went with the design philosophy from Cata-MoP. Not saying it was exclusive content that kept people, but the old system is very obviously superior than the current, everyone gets a trophy, system. The ONLY thing you have telling us otherwise is Blizzards word, which is swayed by the dollar sign.
    The problem is, is in the past, there was massive churn, which is why it's kind of a minsomer to say that subs were steady. That's not really the whole truth, considering there was a steady supply of people leaving, with new people replacing them, rather than a steady supply of people staying.

    Also, pugs aren't viable mainly because, simply put, they're only really viable to a certain part of the community. A small part. I mean, even in WOTLK and Cata, when things were nerfed the most (ICC and DS), participation numbers for those things was still a real teeny part of the playerbase. There's a reason LFR was made. These things don't get made out of thin air :x

  6. #906
    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    The problem is, is in the past, there was massive churn, which is why it's kind of a minsomer to say that subs were steady. That's not really the whole truth, considering there was a steady supply of people leaving, with new people replacing them, rather than a steady supply of people staying.

    Also, pugs aren't viable mainly because, simply put, they're only really viable to a certain part of the community. A small part. I mean, even in WOTLK and Cata, when things were nerfed the most (ICC and DS), participation numbers for those things was still a real teeny part of the playerbase. There's a reason LFR was made. These things don't get made out of thin air :x
    Literally everything you just said was regurgitated from what blizzard has told you.

  7. #907
    The Unstoppable Force Bakis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hogmanlolz View Post
    Does that term bother you at all? I mean after all the work you put in. It took some people almost an entire year to achieve that final cloak. I took me 6 months and someone called it a welfare legendary. How could they. I'm a little fired up about that term. Never have I worked hard for something in a video game before. Does it bother you when its referred to as welfare?
    Depends on peoples views. Older as in played a long time-players generally consider anything guaranteed as welfare.

    Back in the days you had to do something over and over again and it was even then never guaranteed but it was
    about time invested, same today regarding time invested.
    The difference is that apart from that you had to compete with others in the guild (if the items even dropped) for that item and earn it and today
    it is only about investing time and you are guaranteed to have the item.

    BLZ changed the game so legendaries changed as well.
    Yes legendaries are 'welfare' today, they still demand time invested though but only that.
    If it is for good or bad, I dont care and it is up to each player to decide.

    My personal view: yes legendaries are handouts today just like a mount from Blizzard Store ie. guaranteed but I also dont care cos the game changed into something different than before.
    Last edited by Bakis; 2013-09-20 at 11:08 PM.
    But soon after Mr Xi secured a third term, Apple released a new version of the feature in China, limiting its scope. Now Chinese users of iPhones and other Apple devices are restricted to a 10-minute window when receiving files from people who are not listed as a contact. After 10 minutes, users can only receive files from contacts.
    Apple did not explain why the update was first introduced in China, but over the years, the tech giant has been criticised for appeasing Beijing.

  8. #908
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    Literally everything you just said was regurgitated from what blizzard has told you.
    And therefore it's more credible.

    What? We're supposed to believe in the voices in your head instead?
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  9. #909
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    Ok and what does people who do LFR have to do with normal raiding or BC/WOTLK raiding? That just tells me out of the 7 million that are in game 5 million hate LFR.
    By that logic even more hate PVP. But it's bad logic. It's "you're either for me or against me" logic when most people don't care either way. I don't spend any time at all on getting achievements or pets. But I don't hate achievements or pets and if someone said I did I'd think they were being oblivious.
    "...money's most powerful ability is to allow bad people to continue doing bad things at the expense of those who don't have it."

  10. #910
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    By that logic even more hate PVP. But it's bad logic. It's "you're either for me or against me" logic when most people don't care either way. I don't spend any time at all on getting achievements or pets. But I don't hate achievements or pets and if someone said I did I'd think they were being oblivious.
    We could also use the former logic to assume about 6 million hate organized raiding, as well.

  11. #911
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    Literally everything you just said was regurgitated from what blizzard has told you.
    Yes and? I'm not advocating you take everything they sat at face value but when they present you with the facts you can take them at their word for it. The analysis and decision making process that comes out of that you can criticize but if they say they've had a massive subscriber churn you can rest assured they have.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  12. #912
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    We could also use the former logic to assume about 6 million hate organized raiding, as well.
    Well I wasn't going to go there but it's true enough that if that's the logic that people want to use then most everyone hates normal/heroic raiding since a lot of people don't do it. But the logic itself is so terrible that I'm actually surprised that anyone used it.
    "...money's most powerful ability is to allow bad people to continue doing bad things at the expense of those who don't have it."

  13. #913
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    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    We could also use the former logic to assume about 6 million hate organized raiding, as well.
    Which would probably have more credibility. I don't think it's true because it's ultimately an unsound premise that they hate it mind you but it's clear they weren't interested in it.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  14. #914
    When have you ever had to be good to get a legendary? In my experience, legendary weapons only went to either pompous douchebags that had the biggest ego in the guild, or they went to the "loyal" officer who once attaining it, doesn't bother sticking around more than one month into the new patch / xpac. I think its great that after all the years of bullshit I finally get to have one, for myself, that I bothered to do all the shit for and therefore earned.

    The cloak is by far the most time consuming legendary to date, not to mention that a few of the scenario encounters were challenging and on par to those in cataclysm. Heck, week to week, you weren't even guaranteed a drop for quest items needed to complete the cloak. (Thankfully, bliz implemented for Lei Shen.) To call it a "welfare" legendary is to say you just got a hand out for showing up to raid-- something which is 10 times more true for other legendaries to date. Just because you don't have exclusivity anymore does not therefore take away in any form the sense of achievement.

  15. #915
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Yes and? I'm not advocating you take everything they sat at face value but when they present you with the facts you can take them at their word for it. The analysis and decision making process that comes out of that you can criticize but if they say they've had a massive subscriber churn you can rest assured they have.
    Look at almost every change they make, if there's one thing that's clear, it's that blizzard really doesn't know much better. Every patch is bandaid fix after bandaid fix. And the fact that he has to keep saying stuff he's heard makes me think that he personally doesn't know wtf he's talking about. After 7 to 8 years playing this game, I can confidently say that Blizzard is full of shit and incompetent when it comes to game design and balance. At least the B team of Devs is. Bliz is good at lore and art design, that's about it.

    This thread gone off topic though.
    Last edited by Dormie; 2013-09-21 at 12:06 AM.

  16. #916
    Quote Originally Posted by silver9172 View Post
    The cloak in MoP actually takes a lot more work from individuals than any other legendary in the past. Wanted glaives? Wait for them to drop! Want the healing mace from Ulduar or Shadowmourne? Leadership just picks you! Want the FL staff or DS daggers? Same thing!

    With the cloak you've got tons to collect 72 items from a raid, which can easily be compared to the others because they were simply clearing the instance every week, spend 3 weeks (6 for some of us) doing nothing but farming valor, and grind a rep to exalted. That doesn't count the solo scenarios. A lot more personal accountability where in the past you just had to be the guy/gal the guild decided to give it to.
    Not what this guy said....

    First off 90% of the people who did the cloak through LFR and don't think it was a cop out probably would not have been able to kill Illidan much less get to BT when it required attunement.

    So let's look at the glaives the day they were available and the work required for it:

    First off you needed to attune to Kara. Why? That will come later. Kara attunement required 3 quests in dungeons. Not hard but still more work that the first quests of the cloak quest line.

    Ok so you got to Kara now your guild needs to progress through Kara to gear up of course. Once that happens you need to gain rep with Violet Eye and do the quest line to be able to summon Nightbane for your guild. In order to do that you need to do Heroic Shattered Halls and Heroic Sethekk Halls which were both harder than any scenario you did for this cloak. Inb4 people claim they were easy when in truth they are thinking about normal mode not heroic when in heroic the rogues in the final corridor could 2 shot your clothies.

    So you've killed Nightbane for the Blazing Signet he drops. Why? Because you need Vashj's vial. Well hold on you can't get into SSC still.... that's right you need to kill Gruul for his signet and have ventured twice into heroic slave pens.

    So Gruul is dead and now your guild has to progress through SSC. You finally kill Vashj and get her vial yay! Wait a second.... there's 2 vials..... that's right you need to get into Tempest Keep and get Kael's vial. Hold on I think there's a problem with that..... another attunement.

    To get into TK you needed to do a 30 quest long chain that required a group in many parts which culminated in 3 quests in what are the 4 hardest BC heroics(short of BM maybe) which in doing these 3 quests you actually made the heroics harder with exception of the 2 items from SV and SL. Once you did all of that you had to kill Magtheridon.

    Yay you're in TK. Now you have to get to Kael and kill him for his vial. At least in progressing through TK you get 1 item you need in order to get into BT which drops off the first boss of TK.

    So your guild finally killed Kael yay. You have your two vials..... ummm hold on the vials are for MH not BT...... That's right you need the phylactery from the lich in MH. Luckily he's a relatively easy kill and the first boss.

    Well now you've killed Raz and you've killed A'lar. You can enter BT. Hmmmmm in order to pass Mother you need to have your guild in a high Shadow Res. Looks like while you farm for the hearts of darkness you need for the gear you can farm for gear from the bosses assuming your guild can down them. So you get SR up and you beat mother and you bit by bit after toiling get the bosses on farm. Oh yeah Illidan pre nerf was not a cake walk. You may be able to get a glaive or hell both can drop on your first kill, but who ever killed him in 1 attempt when it was relevant content? That's right Illidan outclassed most of today's bosses on heroic much less normal or LFR.

    Do not give me that garbage that you worked any harder to get this welfare cloak than anyone did for glaives.

    Oh and by the way there was no catch up gear until SWP was released.
    Last edited by purebalance; 2013-09-21 at 12:37 AM.

  17. #917
    The Unstoppable Force Bakis's Avatar
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    The cloak in MoP actually takes a lot more work from individuals than any other legendary in the past.
    I will skip making fun of this poster simply by acknowledging that said player never ever played TBC or even Wrath
    But soon after Mr Xi secured a third term, Apple released a new version of the feature in China, limiting its scope. Now Chinese users of iPhones and other Apple devices are restricted to a 10-minute window when receiving files from people who are not listed as a contact. After 10 minutes, users can only receive files from contacts.
    Apple did not explain why the update was first introduced in China, but over the years, the tech giant has been criticised for appeasing Beijing.

  18. #918
    Time put in? It's 10-20 hours of actual play-time depending on rng, probably not the latter if you join during SoO as the drop rates are increased. You didn't work hard for it, you just weren't able to do it quick because of how limited you are per week.

  19. #919
    Better question, who cares?

    I've been doing the legendary questline since 5.0 on my main so its nice to be rewarded for all the work/grinding throughout four patches. People wanna call it a "welfare" because non-hardcore raiders can get it? Well go for it? Whatever helps the elitist A holes sleep at night.

    I got mine the day after 5.4 hit and Im stoked to wear it and tear sh!t up with the procs <3

    Semi-Off Topic; What makes the other legenaries so special and awesome? Random drop rates must be hard I guess... xD
    "If the people who are trying to destroy this world aren't taking a day off, then why should I?"

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  20. #920
    While I'm at it let's look at a couple of others too.

    Do I need to even get into Atiesh? 40 drops from naxx 40. Not guaranteed off every boss. A raid that outclassed normal and LFR of the current day and age without blinking an eye. 1 drop from the final boss of AQ40 and 1 drop from the final boss in Naxx 40. Then a boss in a 5 man that puts to shame anything you had to do for this cloak in terms of difficulty by far.

    Valanyr. 30 drops which had a lower drop rate than any of the pieces you had to collect even if you were doing the bosses on hard modes. The only 100% drop was Yogg saron. Then the requirement of hard mode(not super hard just hard) yogg saron. Not a single other legendary to date required hard/heroic mode as a completion criteria for the raid it is found in.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MagicBanana View Post
    Better question, who cares?

    I've been doing the legendary questline since 5.0 on my main so its nice to be rewarded for all the work/grinding throughout four patches. People wanna call it a "welfare" because non-hardcore raiders can get it? Well go for it? Whatever helps the elitist A holes sleep at night.

    I got mine the day after 5.4 hit and Im stoked to wear it and tear sh!t up with the procs <3

    Semi-Off Topic; What makes the other legenaries so special and awesome? Random drop rates must be hard I guess... xD
    Semi on topic: Getting to said RNG drops was harder than this welfare legendary.

    Also it has nothing to do with hardcore. As I've said in many other threads this is bad vs decent players. Bads are handed these by the boatload. Just like people standing in the welfare line who can't do 1+1. They "worked hard" afk in LFR.

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