Break the cycle, break the hatred, make the game - humans emergent in the horde

[ravenmoon]

will end all the horde hate when undeath gets a cure, but one that doesn't always work.

Think about it..all the alliance fan "horde favourtism" QQs may disappear altogether when humans also play a part in the horde by undeath being healable.. but not at 100% success rate, allowing you to still role an undead character or a horde human.

Would be a perfect intro with the new race models too. The story goes that some druid or Alextraszaa or a Naaru maybe even Elune implements a cure for undeath, but it restores some undead fully, partially works in others, and not at all in some. So you have the Forsaken group now made up restored humans/Elves and undead. To prevent human immortality, raising to undeath cannot be something that works all the time either, so it's success rate is going to have to change dramatically too.. burning to ashes or cutting someone to pieces should prevent them ever returning as undead too.

What do you think? it would give the horde a legitimacy for holding land in Azeroth the alliance fans can never complain about again, we could also finally give them their beloved High Elves, and i'd probably shift horde leadership to the Blood Elves again. Human forsaken will never forgive alliance humans for trying to exterminate them when they demonstrated they were free from the mindless scourge control and needed help rather than extermination. Maybe in light of that it's better if Blood elf priests find a cure.

Horde humans would have an additional character creation customisation - undeath scars or healing undeath which will allow you to have a fully normal human, or one wtih a few bits of rot that are "in the process of being healed" but not quite yet.

[Larynx]

Why would un-undead humans matter? The Alliance doesn't recognize the Forsaken as being the rightful rulers of Lordaeron... because they're undead? That is arbitrary as fuck.

[Al Gorefiend]

Honestly, I can totally live with Human/Dwarf/Gnome being cross-faction and Tauren/Troll/Blood Elf being cross-faction as well. This Warcraft "All races have a hive-mind" crap gets old.

[ravenmoon]

Why would un-undead humans matter? The Alliance doesn't recognize the Forsaken as being the rightful rulers of Lordaeron... because they're undead? That is arbitrary as fuck.

why would the alliance need to recognise them? they would certainly not align with them, afterall when they were in a state of undeath, humans still tried to destroy them , deny their right to exist, even though they were no longer mindless scourge and had their wits about them.

I would see the human horde characters hate the human Alliance, even though they look the same. They would stilll consdier themselves Forsaken, and their return to humanity would not mean a return to the alliance, it would further legitimize their claim on lordearon. But I don't see Sylvannas' necromancy stopping either nor her plague attempts, especially if the cure doesn't work on her, maybe it can't work on evlves, and even if it does, .. you could write sylvannas returning to her kin and a more sinister undead character taking the realms and carrying on her work for dominance. Just because you become human again doens't make you morally good. A 3rd resurrection of Kel'thuzzad perhaps?

[Gamevizier]

Why would un-undead humans matter? The Alliance doesn't recognize the Forsaken as being the rightful rulers of Lordaeron... because they're undead? That is arbitrary as fuck.

the remaining human survivors at Lordaeron also don't recognize them as rightful rules of Lordaeron. and there's a good reason for this : the forsaken killed the alliance forces that helped them retake lordaeron. Garithos was an asshole but keep that in mind that the forsaken never wanted "peace" with humans in the first place, they used the alliance to retake the capital city and then slaughtered them all.

[Mace]

Honestly, I can totally live with Human/Dwarf/Gnome being cross-faction and Tauren/Troll/Blood Elf being cross-faction as well. This Warcraft "All races have a hive-mind" crap gets old.

it does, i think the races you chose are very good candidates for becoming cross faction. Humans cross faction from something like 50% of the undead becoming healable, Dwarves I can see the dark Irons and Irons totally going over to the horde. Gnomes would be an individual basis, the more poewr hungry indviduals - it deosn't have to be a group.

Tauren, I can see most of the druids being influenced to join the night elves, same with the trolls even though night elves can't stand them, druids seem to be generally above the race thing.. some notable exceptions ofc (cough - staghelm--but then he was mad). Blood Elf would obvoiusly be high elves playable in the alliance

[Grubjuice]

i uhm, ok,

how about just all races are neutral

[Mace]

Why would un-undead humans matter? The Alliance doesn't recognize the Forsaken as being the rightful rulers of Lordaeron... because they're undead? That is arbitrary as fuck.

Forsaken that become humans again would never want to align with any of the Human fations of the alliance.. afterall, your body is being healed, your mind, your spirit is still the same, you have witnessed you and your friends being mercilessly pursued and hacked to pieces despite demonstrating to your captors that you are not scourge, you are not mindless pawns of a Lich King and that you share a common goal of ending his tyranny, but have your right to exist denied right in front of you... nah, you won't forgive, that kind of forgiveness requires a Christian like spirituality that doesn't exist in warcraft, the solution is to wipe out every human that tried to kill you. and still tries to kill your friends who aren't able to be healed.

A more interesting storyline would be the cure was used as a weapon by the alliance to gain the allegiance of the forsaken faction by turning them all human again and depriving the horde/converting a major horde powerbase completely and gaining a massive upperhand in the eastern kingdoms. .. but it backfires when the cure ends up healing only about half of the undead population, and the healed forsaken and it doesn't change the healed forsaken's minds at all, they still hate the alliance for what they did

[Grimble]

why would the alliance need to recognise them? they would certainly not align with them, afterall when they were in a state of undeath, humans still tried to destroy them , deny their right to exist, even though they were no longer mindless scourge and had their wits about them.

By the way, can anyone actually show me a source for this bullshit "Alliance were so mean to the Forsaken!" meme you see people throw around? Because as far as I can tell, no such source has ever existed.

Sylvanas became undead, briefly cooperated with a Lorderainian military officer while laughingly planning to betray and kill him all along, did so, then immediately dubbed herself Forsaken, proclaimed herself Queen, said some badass line about destroying anyone who got in her way, set up her capital in the ruins of Lordaeron, appointed a Dreadlord her second-in-command, and started her followers working on their own version of the Scourge plague, all before even meeting anyone else who could possibly "forsake" her.

Gee, I wonder why no one wanted to be friends.

[Aquamonkey]

Just kill the Forsaken and resurrect them properly.

[Lbgr]

then instead of battelgrounds we can have bake offs.

[Jokubas]

By the way, can anyone actually show me a source for this bullshit "Alliance were so mean to the Forsaken!" meme you see people throw around? Because as far as I can tell, no such source has ever existed.

Sylvanas became undead, briefly cooperated with a Lorderainian military officer while laughingly planning to betray and kill him all along, did so, then immediately dubbed herself Forsaken, proclaimed herself Queen, said some badass line about destroying anyone who got in her way, set up her capital in the ruins of Lordaeron, appointed a Dreadlord her second-in-command, and started her followers working on their own version of the Scourge plague, all before even meeting anyone else who could possibly "forsake" her.

Gee, I wonder why no one wanted to be friends.

Seriously, this has always bothered me. Where has the Alliance ever showed that kind of attitude? They let the Death Knights into their faction, who were much more directly evil than some mindless fodder. Granted, the Death Knights were after Varian's return, but Varian was not a tolerant guy at that time. Before Varian, who did the Alliance have? Anduin? Bolvar? You think they were less likely to let their former comrades back? The only explanation is that Onyxia sabotaged those dealings, which no one should hold against the Alliance at this point.

All evidence simply points to the Forsaken not being quite as free-willed as they like to claim. How many Forsaken NPCs can you count that don't spend most of their time talking about how to plague and massacre the living, Horde and Alliance alike. And look where they live. If they hated the Scourge so much, why haven't they tried to return their homeland to its pre-Scourge state?

I like the idea of the Forsaken, and I liked them in Warcraft III. But in World of Warcraft, they're not victims, they're villains themselves. Blizzard has even specifically admitted that Sylvanas is essentially becoming a Lich Queen.

No, allowing Horde humans would not stop Alliance complaints, it would make them worse. You're suggesting that the Horde gets new race options, one of them being an Alliance race, and the Alliance gets nothing in return. I would support the Forsaken and Lordaeron returning somewhat to normal, it makes the most sense considering their history, but this specific way would only cause more drama.

[Aquamonkey]

By the way, can anyone actually show me a source for this bullshit "Alliance were so mean to the Forsaken!" meme you see people throw around? Because as far as I can tell, no such source has ever existed.

Sylvanas became undead, briefly cooperated with a Lorderainian military officer while laughingly planning to betray and kill him all along, did so, then immediately dubbed herself Forsaken, proclaimed herself Queen, said some badass line about destroying anyone who got in her way, set up her capital in the ruins of Lordaeron, appointed a Dreadlord her second-in-command, and started her followers working on their own version of the Scourge plague, all before even meeting anyone else who could possibly "forsake" her.

Gee, I wonder why no one wanted to be friends.

Garithos' forces weren't exactly treating the Forsaken with gratitude after having just saved their asses from the Legion.

But the direct "forsaken" thing comes from those that tried to go home when they were freed. Those humans were largely unaffiliated with the Alliance. And Sylvanas didn't instantly gain command of the freed Scourge, she had to rally them together from the disorganized and confused state while being surrounded by crazy/feral Scourge.

[Arrashi]

I have better idea !!! How about night elves find an artifact that will turn them back into trolls, and then make peace with vol'jin ? Think about it !! All QQ will dissappear when trolls also play role in alliance !!!

[Jokubas]

Garithos' forces weren't exactly treating the Forsaken with gratitude after having just saved their asses from the Legion.

But the direct "forsaken" thing comes from those that tried to go home when they were freed. Those humans were largely unaffiliated with the Alliance. And Sylvanas didn't instantly gain command of the freed Scourge, she had to rally them together from the disorganized and confused state while being surrounded by crazy/feral Scourge.

The details are fuzzy about the difference between Warcraft III's Lordaeron Alliance and World of Warcraft's Stormwind Alliance, but Garithos clearly did not represent Stormwind. As for the second part, where does that actually come from? That was never shown in game, and as I said, it doesn't line up with what we know about the Alliance. If it's canon, it's a very lazy piece of writing obviously put there to justify them being a Horde race instead of an Alliance race, not any proof of the Forsaken being tragic victims of terrible prejudice. Unless that's just the Forsaken's story, and the Alliance already found out about all their plagues and stuff, in which case it's totally justified.

Again, I just want to point out that I like the concept of the Forsaken, but they've been portrayed as mad scientists, following in the Scourge's footsteps, who want everyone dead. It's hard to sympathize with such blatant hypocrites, and I hope they make them less hypocritical in the future.

[Gamevizier]

Garithos' forces weren't exactly treating the Forsaken with gratitude after having just saved their asses from the Legion.

But the direct "forsaken" thing comes from those that tried to go home when they were freed. Those humans were largely unaffiliated with the Alliance. And Sylvanas didn't instantly gain command of the freed Scourge, she had to rally them together from the disorganized and confused state while being surrounded by crazy/feral Scourge.

not true, Garithos was the commander of the Alliance forces in Lordaeron. that's why the Blood Elves were assisting them in the first place, and that's why the Blood Elves left the Alliance after Garithos' stupid actions.

Stormwind is not "the alliance" it is a member of alliance, in-fact I don't think Stormwind was a major player until Lordaeron was destroyed by the undead. (Stormwind was rebuilt by the rest of the Alliance during the war with Orcs.)

Stormwind was catapulted into the leadership of the Alliance just recently and when Varian Wrynn returned to Stormwind.

[Sicarius87]

Just kill the Forsaken and resurrect them properly.

That would make me alliance on all of my toons. No thank you.

[judgementofantonidas]

will end all the horde hate when undeath gets a cure, but one that doesn't always work.

Think about it..all the alliance fan "horde favourtism" QQs may disappear altogether when humans also play a part in the horde by undeath being healable.. but not at 100% success rate, allowing you to still role an undead character or a horde human.

Would be a perfect intro with the new race models too. The story goes that some druid or Alextraszaa or a Naaru maybe even Elune implements a cure for undeath, but it restores some undead fully, partially works in others, and not at all in some. So you have the Forsaken group now made up restored humans/Elves and undead. To prevent human immortality, raising to undeath cannot be something that works all the time either, so it's success rate is going to have to change dramatically too.. burning to ashes or cutting someone to pieces should prevent them ever returning as undead too.

What do you think? it would give the horde a legitimacy for holding land in Azeroth the alliance fans can never complain about again, we could also finally give them their beloved High Elves, and i'd probably shift horde leadership to the Blood Elves again. Human forsaken will never forgive alliance humans for trying to exterminate them when they demonstrated they were free from the mindless scourge control and needed help rather than extermination. Maybe in light of that it's better if Blood elf priests find a cure.

Horde humans would have an additional character creation customisation - undeath scars or healing undeath which will allow you to have a fully normal human, or one wtih a few bits of rot that are "in the process of being healed" but not quite yet.

I have always strongly felt that certain races should be given the choice as to what faction they join. You want to be a shit bag human, by all means join horde. While other race/class combos should not have a choice. You want to work with the light you join alliance, aka holy cows.

[Grimble]

not true, Garithos was the commander of the Alliance forces in Lordaeron.

Garithos was a military officer of Lordaeron, which was at the time a member of the Alliance.

Forsaken fans, however, are always quick to tell everyone how the Forsaken are the true people of Lordaeron. To which I say fine, great, that's swell. But my question is, how did the sins of Lordaeron somehow get dumped on the other kingdoms of the Alliance just because Lordaeron went undead and faction-changed to Horde?

Same thing with the bellyaching over the old orc internment camps. That shit was Lordaeron, man, go tell it to the Forsaken.

[Lazuli]

I thought the waters in pandaria can cure death or undeath?