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  1. #41
    Elemental Lord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    How is that a cure? They can go in and "cure" them all right now.
    They won't be undead anymore.

    EJL

  2. #42
    I could live with races being able to choose a side. It would be more fluid for lore creation. Besides it makes more sense in a way that what would drive ppl to choose are the ideals and personal ambitions. always found quite silly that you never see a faction member commit an act of treason it's more realistic than this hive minded stuff. but what i would realy enjoy are other factions. tbh if i could i'd stay with the scourge as a dk. I find the argent crusade realy apealing too since both overlook all this race crap and kids rant (this place is mine not yours.) they stick together and fight for a greater purpose.

  3. #43
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    It's not easy to resurrect people to life. All the shit we do in game is just a gameplay mechanic. Lore resurrections almost never happen. It took Aegwynn 20 years to gather enough power to resurrect Medivh.


    i guess one possible conceit is that players are not dead, they are temporarily critically incapacitated.
    .


    When someone asks you if you're a god, YOU SAY 'YES'!

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Larynx View Post
    Why would un-undead humans matter? The Alliance doesn't recognize the Forsaken as being the rightful rulers of Lordaeron... because they're undead? That is arbitrary as fuck.
    Wait... what? Zombies are ok now? If there were zombies, you'd be ok letting them run a town? Really? Even though they're planning on murdering literally everybody?

    and as far as alliance qq about horde favoritism goes.... how's Thrall doing? You want to know how alliance's Thrall is doing? Take a portal to Dalaran. That burnt husk on the loading screen? That's the alliance's Thrall, Bolvar Fordragon. So STFU about alliance QQing about horde favoritism. It's a fact.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Cure Undeath and the victim simply dies.

    That's not an issue for the Alliance who see the Forsaken as imprisoned souls trapped in their own rotting flesh and corrupted by foul necromantic energies but it'd be kinda naff for gameplay to simply have one faction keel over.

    A cure for Undeath might be possible. It appears as if it wears off anyway. Mass resurrection of thousands of people? Not likely. As a storypoint for one, maybe two individual? Galen Trollbane or Liam Greymane? It could work. Not for the faction as a whole.

    EJL
    I think the aim of the exercise is to put the most popular race available to pboth factions - adding a pretty race to the horde, and legitimizing horde right's to exist on Azeroth by taking the orcs to the back burner and exalting the Blood elves and trolls as leaders. Being able to roll human on the horde will also be exciting, especially if horde humans were part of the Forsaken group , specifically being undead forsaken that got their bodies somehow alive again and healed.

    It would be very interesting now how that would go down, it would be some sort of powerful life cure like the pool in Panderia, but one that doesn't work for all forsaken which is why you would be able to still roll your forsaken toon as undead. The human forsaken would have the same model as the alliance human, but may have an extra feature that can show varying degrees of undeath flesh rot at differing stages of healing --as an optional appearance deviation.

    It would be natural to expect these humans will be totally loyal to Sylvannas or whoever leads the forsaken at that time - an interesting storyline would be what would Sylvanna be like if she got returned to living flesh huh!! - anyway, since not all of them would be living human, and since the process heals the body and possibly the soul/spirit - however the mind is still the same, you can guarantee they'd have no love for alliance humans or the lordearon humans who were trying to wipe them out when they were undead and still trying to wipe out thei undead counterparts who were not able to be healed.

    Even more interesting was if this healing was discovered by the alliance, who intended it to be used as a way of eliminating the forsaken by making them human and incorporating them back into the allinace and thus costing the horde a huge amount of territory, only to have it backfire spectacular when the restored undead hate their guts even more and it only worked on about 50%.

    Anyway, I would certainly expect the majority of the horde favouritsm QQs to die, as alliance lore fan boys may start viewing the horde very differently, certainly not as alien invaers who have no right to Azeroth and are usurping everyone -- or they may not. Furthermore to even things out for the "horde get our race but we get nothing" whingers, blizzard throws in the high elves as playable under either the night elf or human race... it would make the forsaken story even more interesting.

    Does the change slowly effect the morality and spirituality of the forsaken? Sure I expec thtem to still have teh same mind and memories, but did undeath have a darkening on the soul that has been lightened? do we see some more goodness come out or do they end up being cruel manipulative humans - do they drift towards civil conflict? Off course somehow the ability to raise as undead should now have some serious limits and humans restored from undeath, are not able to be raised undead again should they die.

    it would be fascinating.

  6. #46
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    the foresaken are not zombies

    zombies have no free will; the foresaken do
    .


    When someone asks you if you're a god, YOU SAY 'YES'!

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    The Forsaken are not mind-control or enslaved. They have free will and are free to leave the Forsaken at any time.
    Their human slaves don't. I haven't been in Undercity in a while but at least until Cat there was a group of 3 Forsaken wandering around, one with a bound human that had their eyes bandaged that was a "pet" to one of the Forsaken. This Forsaken was happy to talk about how well he had mind controlled and worked with this slave.

    Southshore is Lordaeron territory and a major Alliance port near Forsaken territory. The Alliance have made incursions into Alterac and WPL, right on the Forsaken's borders.

    The Forsaken have made no aggressive moves towards the Alliance or Stromgarde in Arathi except under orders of the Horde or in reclamation of Trol'kalar for Galen (BTW, it's his sword. He has every right to it). They are not invading jack shit with 3 people. 1 of whom just wants his sword back. The other just wants to settle a personal vendetta at a farm. And the 3rd just wants you to kill some Syndicate.

    If they were going to invade Stromgarde they would have Bighted the shit out of it. The major base there a Horde base controlled by orcs.
    An "if" just means they haven't yet. A forward scouting base is fine to determine whether or not to extend their rule into Stromgarde.

    And if the Forsaken wanted humans in the former environs of Lordaeron then why do we go from Tarren Mill and resurrect Kel'Thuzad's first master (or was it apprentice) warlock to go through and terrorize Southshore? Why are we planting plague mushrooms there? Where is a diplomatic solution? The fact is that now Forsaken consider themselves a completely separate race from the living and have no desire to reestablish contact and any Forsaken who DID find themselves "realived" would be either killed or enslaved.

    Completely wrong. Blight was designed to kill undead and living. It's just as deadly to the Forsaken as it is everyone else. Forsaken have determined Southshore to remain at lethal levels for a hundred years.
    Weren't you the one that said the Forsaken would start out an invasion by first blighting the area? Something doesn't add up in your math.

    Those people were dead already. So what if they eat the corpses?
    It only goes to cement how there is a MASSIVE species difference in culture and morals between the Forsaken and just about everyone else with the possible exclusion of Trolls. The Forsaken have no desire to return to the living, view their corpses as either a source of food or a source of soldiers to bolster their conflicts and ensure the survival of their species. Not only is there no reason for the Forsaken to want to be alive again, but any Forsaken that was changed would at that point no longer be Forsaken. Life versus Undeath drastically change your outlook of the world and morality.

    So now Sylvanas is going to use political maneuvering to claim Gilneas and Stromgarde through resurrection? Why would anyone think that would work? The humans already invalidate any claims the Forsaken have. And Sylvanas only attacked Gilneas because Garrosh twisted her arm.
    You ever consider that she's not using these claims to satisfy the Alliance but rather to ensure the strength of her expansionist position with the Horde? And I didn't see much arm twisting, I only saw Garrosh telling her to stop raising the undead and then leave a nanny to make sure she didn't. I THEN saw Forsaken agents allow the death of that nanny so they could continue raising the undead and using the plague without further Horde oversight.

    Galen doesn't have any problems with being Forsaken. He's free to leave just like all the other Forsaken. Just look at Godfrey, he didn't like being Forsaken so he shot Sylvanas in the face.
    Galen had it done in such a way that he adjusted. Since it's not mentioned in game I'd assume they either dug up his corpse or just found it, at which point they may have just let him roam into his former camp and be shunned, thus making him far more pliable and likely to join a faction that would then offer him shelter. Also many undead just accept it with pragmatic grace, others in mopey self-pity (Hi Death Knights!), but the fact remains that Galen the man is dead and not coming back. What's left is Galen the Forsaken who firmly enforces the Forsaken line of expansionism by an unwillingness to embrace the fact that he is no longer alive. Instead he clings to what his life was and any symbolism that affirms his former existence, this is a recurring them for the Forsaken and their primary justification of the conquest of their "homeland."

    Other recurring themes being the previously mentioned cannibalism, chemical/biological warfare, contempt for the living and so on.

    Except that since Silvanas' encounter at ICC, her sole motivation has been survival. And putting a kingdom of undead between herself and the afterlife. All the crying about Sylvanas' "expansionist" policies can be explained in that context. Southshore? Major Alliance naval port from which to attack the Forsaken. Andorhal? The Alliance invasion of UC is shown to have come through Andorhal. Putting a tiny camp at the Arathi wall? Forward scout to alert if Alliance attempt a land invasion now that their seaport is destroyed.
    No it hasn't. If it was survival she'd have made a deal with Tyrion and would have encouraged the creation of Andorhal as a mixed town. Her goal isn't survival of herself, it's the decimation of threats. Now you're going to cry "well she wouldn't feel the need to kill everyone if she and the Forsaken weren't misused!" To which I reply, bullcrap! She's just looking for a new target for vengeance, she doesn't understand life, she only understands war and death and follows the cult of shadows rather than the Light - which is something ALL undead do as the light actually harms them. She knows subterfuge and dirty tricks and the strength to be found in an alliance of convenience (The Horde), that she can later use to support her in plans to control the entire north of that continent.

    The only crimes the Forsaken are guilty of is medical torture in development of Blight and exploiting the confused state of newly resurrected on the battlefield.
    And slavery.

    And murder.

    And cannibalism (not sure if a crime in Warcraft but definitely one in the real world.)

    And murder again of diplomatic attaches, though in fairness so are the Blood Elves.

    Torture of their own citizens - pretty sure Koltira isn't too happy.

    Use of biomagical/chemical weapons in warfare in express rebellion to their Warchief.

    Hypocritical resurrection of fallen foes for gains political and military.

    Either way the answer remains a Forsaken is and can never be "living" again. To be so goes against EVERYTHING that makes a Forsaken Forsaken.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    And slavery.

    And murder.

    And cannibalism (not sure if a crime in Warcraft but definitely one in the real world.)

    And murder again of diplomatic attaches, though in fairness so are the Blood Elves.

    Torture of their own citizens - pretty sure Koltira isn't too happy.

    Use of biomagical/chemical weapons in warfare in express rebellion to their Warchief.

    Hypocritical resurrection of fallen foes for gains political and military.

    Either way the answer remains a Forsaken is and can never be "living" again. To be so goes against EVERYTHING that makes a Forsaken Forsaken.
    Because, you know, EVERY single Forsaken has done literally ALL of these things.

    Right.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    Weren't you the one that said the Forsaken would start out an invasion by first blighting the area? Something doesn't add up in your math.
    ...The stuff used in Southshore was incredibly potent. They've never used anything that strong before. Raw, undiluted Blight is strong enough to vaporize people. Usually when they use Blight, it dissipates after a while not 100 years like Southshore. Sometimes they use Blight so diluted it becomes useless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    You ever consider that she's not using these claims to satisfy the Alliance but rather to ensure the strength of her expansionist position with the Horde?
    WTF would it matter to the Horde? Sylvanas was only invading Gilneas by order of Garrosh. And she's made no moves to conquer Stromgarde or even attempt to show off Galen as a "trophy". She has him off in the middle of nowhere reclaiming his sword and nothing else.

    The Horde were already invading Arathi. They have Hammerfall run by orcs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    And I didn't see much arm twisting, I only saw Garrosh telling her to stop raising the undead and then leave a nanny to make sure she didn't. I THEN saw Forsaken agents allow the death of that nanny so they could continue raising the undead and using the plague without further Horde oversight.
    How about Garrosh sitting ahead of his own army and threatening to burn UC to the ground if the Forsaken didn't comply with his orders to invade Gilneas?

    Metzen said Sylvanas was in the "dog house" after Wrathgate, she doesn't have much choice but to follow orders. She obviously can't hide not invading, but the methods she uses for the invasion behind Garrosh's back is a different matter. She's using the tools available to her. Not using the Val'kyr for reinforcements or Blight to reduce casualties would handicap her and increase Forsaken deaths.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    Galen had it done in such a way that he adjusted. Since it's not mentioned in game I'd assume they either dug up his corpse or just found it, at which point they may have just let him roam into his former camp and be shunned, thus making him far more pliable and likely to join a faction that would then offer him shelter. Also many undead just accept it with pragmatic grace, others in mopey self-pity (Hi Death Knights!), but the fact remains that Galen the man is dead and not coming back. What's left is Galen the Forsaken who firmly enforces the Forsaken line of expansionism by an unwillingness to embrace the fact that he is no longer alive. Instead he clings to what his life was and any symbolism that affirms his former existence, this is a recurring them for the Forsaken and their primary justification of the conquest of their "homeland."
    WTF "expansionism" are you talking about? They have 3 fucking people in a tiny camp by the wall in Arathi attacking Syndicate and retrieving an artifact. The Explorer's Guild and Reliquary deploy more forces than that, but nobody cries "expansionism" over their activities. The exact same mission to retrieve the sword was previously given by a troll, Galen just took over.

    If you want to talk about expansionism, it's all the Horde with their base at Hammerfall.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    No it hasn't. If it was survival she'd have made a deal with Tyrion and would have encouraged the creation of Andorhal as a mixed town. Her goal isn't survival of herself, it's the decimation of threats. Now you're going to cry "well she wouldn't feel the need to kill everyone if she and the Forsaken weren't misused!" To which I reply, bullcrap! She's just looking for a new target for vengeance, she doesn't understand life, she only understands war and death and follows the cult of shadows rather than the Light - which is something ALL undead do as the light actually harms them. She knows subterfuge and dirty tricks and the strength to be found in an alliance of convenience (The Horde), that she can later use to support her in plans to control the entire north of that continent.
    You know so little about Sylvanas. Edge of Night clearly explains her motivations. She's not seeking any kind of vengeance, that was completely satisfied when Arthas died. She even committed suicide because she had nothing to live for after that. She only came back when she saw what awaited her in the afterlife. Sylvanas is using the Forsaken as "a bulwark against the infinite."

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    And slavery.
    Nothing other races haven't done.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    And murder.
    Who doesn't commit murder in Warcraft?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    And murder again of diplomatic attaches, though in fairness so are the Blood Elves.
    You mean the ambassadors the Alliance sent to spy and sabotage the BElves?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    Torture of their own citizens - pretty sure Koltira isn't too happy.
    He committed treason in wartime...

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    Use of biomagical/chemical weapons in warfare in express rebellion to their Warchief.
    A weapon is a weapon, in the end people are dead. Launching flaming/exploding bombs from siege weapons to conflagrate people is so much better?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    Hypocritical resurrection of fallen foes for gains political and military.
    Pure fanon, the Forsaken have never used resurrection as a political tool.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  10. #50
    This is the stupidest thread I've ever seen go past one page. Forsaken coming back to life and being Horde Humans? God who cares, worthless idea, will never happen.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Grubjuice View Post
    i guess one possible conceit is that players are not dead, they are temporarily critically incapacitated.
    I always just thought of it as magical CPR

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    ...The stuff used in Southshore was incredibly potent. They've never used anything that strong before. Raw, undiluted Blight is strong enough to vaporize people. Usually when they use Blight, it dissipates after a while not 100 years like Southshore. Sometimes they use Blight so diluted it becomes useless.
    That doesn't change the fact that they are using a bio-weapon which makes the area uninhabitable except by the undead.

    WTF would it matter to the Horde? Sylvanas was only invading Gilneas by order of Garrosh. And she's made no moves to conquer Stromgarde or even attempt to show off Galen as a "trophy". She has him off in the middle of nowhere reclaiming his sword and nothing else.

    The Horde were already invading Arathi. They have Hammerfall run by orcs.
    Yes the Horde are invading Arathi but Trolls and Orcs don't exactly live strong and breathe free under giant poisonous mushrooms, the Forsaken do. And I don't recall any of the attacks on Gilneas mentioned in game. I don't read, nor do I much care about, non-game sources of lore. I'm not a teenager anymore and frankly I had my fill of bad fantasy with Weiss and Hickman and the last time I picked up something written by Salvatore it made me wish I was out of toilet paper so the book would be at least useful as it wasn't entertaining.

    How about Garrosh sitting ahead of his own army and threatening to burn UC to the ground if the Forsaken didn't comply with his orders to invade Gilneas?

    Metzen said Sylvanas was in the "dog house" after Wrathgate, she doesn't have much choice but to follow orders. She obviously can't hide not invading, but the methods she uses for the invasion behind Garrosh's back is a different matter. She's using the tools available to her. Not using the Val'kyr for reinforcements or Blight to reduce casualties would handicap her and increase Forsaken deaths.
    That's all actually even MORE reason for her to resurrect Galen. She's got a chip in the "oh no, Wreck-it-Gary is all upset, well maybe if I give him a better political foothold into Arathi he'll take out his heirloom axe suppository!"

    Also that's still making her as bad or worse than Arthas. She's actively killing people and resurrecting them to her cause, that's the exact same way the Scourge worked, hell, it's her damn origin story! These aren't folks lining up to be killed and then possible resurrected into a state of living death for the glory of new-Lordaeron, these are casualties of war being actively desecrated.

    WTF "expansionism" are you talking about? They have 3 fucking people in a tiny camp by the wall in Arathi attacking Syndicate and retrieving an artifact. The Explorer's Guild and Reliquary deploy more forces than that, but nobody cries "expansionism" over their activities. The exact same mission to retrieve the sword was previously given by a troll, Galen just took over.

    If you want to talk about expansionism, it's all the Horde with their base at Hammerfall.
    Absolutely it is, but it's also about Sylvanas and the Forsaken wanting to push out their boundaries further and further for a greater buffer zone, especially under the fractured Horde that's come into being under the leadership of Garrosh. Forsaken are, and always will be, the true outsiders of the Horde or any faction they are a part of. It's pretty much straight out part of their bio and flavor, they are no longer a recognizable species, they don't worship the light, they don't follow the call of the spirits, they don't even breathe anymore. They are dead and there's a weird mix of superiority and self-loathing running through the entire motif of the race.

    As is people are CONSTANTLY expecting Sylvanas to be the next big-bad or at least raid boss in one expansion or another and feel that if a third faction was created there's a very good chance it would be lead by her, with probably the high elves as a client race - once again playing second fiddle to the "humans" as they did back in Warcraft: OvH days.

    You know so little about Sylvanas. Edge of Night clearly explains her motivations. She's not seeking any kind of vengeance, that was completely satisfied when Arthas died. She even committed suicide because she had nothing to live for after that. She only came back when she saw what awaited her in the afterlife. Sylvanas is using the Forsaken as "a bulwark against the infinite."
    Yeah, I see no need to read more boring fiction. I only go by the in-game actions of characters and yes, she was lost when Arthas died and no her goal is the continued proliferation and success of The Forsaken. That's her charge and duty and the Forsaken are a total cult of personality built around HER. Not the Horde, not even "The Dark," or anything but their "Dark Lady." She's Lich King-lite and always has been.

    As for the rest of the list I gave, you're right. This is Warcraft and ain't no one with clean hands - with the possible exception of Anduin who needs to just grow a pair already. Everyone has done horrible things, not a single race in the game hasn't tried to commit genocide - most of our beginning quests are pretty much straight genocide to begin with, but the game isn't called "Diplomatic-Solutioncraft."

    My whole point is that in all things The Forsaken do there is a separate greedy edge to their activities. All of their actions are tinged by their Undeath and by their worship of The Dark. As for the slavery, yes all races have been involved in it and it's definitely implied in the Horde caste-system, but The Forsaken are the only NPC's I know of walking around their home city with mind-controlled former citizens of Lordaeron on leashes.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    That doesn't change the fact that they are using a bio-weapon which makes the area uninhabitable except by the undead.
    Except that bio-weapon is just as deadly to Forsaken...

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    Yes the Horde are invading Arathi but Trolls and Orcs don't exactly live strong and breathe free under giant poisonous mushrooms, the Forsaken do. And I don't recall any of the attacks on Gilneas mentioned in game. I don't read, nor do I much care about, non-game sources of lore. I'm not a teenager anymore and frankly I had my fill of bad fantasy with Weiss and Hickman and the last time I picked up something written by Salvatore it made me wish I was out of toilet paper so the book would be at least useful as it wasn't entertaining.

    Yeah, I see no need to read more boring fiction. I only go by the in-game actions of characters and yes, she was lost when Arthas died and no her goal is the continued proliferation and success of The Forsaken. That's her charge and duty and the Forsaken are a total cult of personality built around HER. Not the Horde, not even "The Dark," or anything but their "Dark Lady." She's Lich King-lite and always has been.
    The books and short stories are canon. You can't dismiss major sources of lore just because you don't like them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    That's all actually even MORE reason for her to resurrect Galen. She's got a chip in the "oh no, Wreck-it-Gary is all upset, well maybe if I give him a better political foothold into Arathi he'll take out his heirloom axe suppository!"

    Also that's still making her as bad or worse than Arthas. She's actively killing people and resurrecting them to her cause, that's the exact same way the Scourge worked, hell, it's her damn origin story! These aren't folks lining up to be killed and then possible resurrected into a state of living death for the glory of new-Lordaeron, these are casualties of war being actively desecrated.
    If Sylvanas was using Galen as a political tool to claim Stromguarde, she would have just walked him right in expecting the guards to fall in line.

    Galen was already dead... It was the Troll Zengu who ordered his death while trying to get Trol'kalar.

    Resurrecting people to her cause vs. resurrecting people as mindslaves and feeding off their souls. Forsaken actually get convinced to join, it's not automatic.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Except that bio-weapon is just as deadly to Forsaken...


    The books and short stories are canon. You can't dismiss major sources of lore just because you don't like them.


    If Sylvanas was using Galen as a political tool to claim Stromguarde, she would have just walked him right in expecting the guards to fall in line.

    Galen was already dead... It was the Troll Zengu who ordered his death while trying to get Trol'kalar.

    Resurrecting people to her cause vs. resurrecting people as mindslaves and feeding off their souls. Forsaken actually get convinced to join, it's not automatic.
    it does beg the question how would Sylvannas react if undeath was reversible/restorable to a living body by some miracle cure/divine hand.

    and what would her reaction be if half her forsaken were restored

    also what would her reaction be if she was also restored along with roughly half of the forsaken.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    it does beg the question how would Sylvannas react if undeath was reversible/restorable to a living body by some miracle cure/divine hand.

    and what would her reaction be if half her forsaken were restored

    also what would her reaction be if she was also restored along with roughly half of the forsaken.
    I imagine it would be just as much a shock as becoming undead in the first place, but they'd get over it and embrace their new living bodies. But with all the animosity they've garnered because of their reprehensible actions, it's not going to wipe the slate clean just because they aren't undead anymore. So while being fully alive again will allow them to feel more positive emotions, they still wouldn't really have anywhere else to go. They may split off into their own faction, just leave to go on their own, or stay with the undead Forsaken and try to make it less gruesome (especially if Sylvanas were restored).

    If this were possible, Sylvanas might become the most popular person on Azeroth. People go to her so Valkyr can resurrect whomever, then throw the cure at them to make them full living. Now there's lore resurrection for the masses.

    Also, this cure could be used on all the undead in the Scourge. That's a ton of restored people. More than in the Forsaken. The Alliance probably wouldn't have much qualms with accepting those people back.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-09-20 at 05:50 PM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Except that bio-weapon is just as deadly to Forsaken...
    Only in the right concentration. Kinda like water, too much will kill you, not enough will kill you, but you always need it.

    The books and short stories are canon. You can't dismiss major sources of lore just because you don't like them.
    If Blizzard can I can too.

    Events can be hinted at, thrown out or whatever, but if it doesn't happen in game it doesn't matter and can be easily ret-conned.

    If Sylvanas was using Galen as a political tool to claim Stromguarde, she would have just walked him right in expecting the guards to fall in line.
    No she wouldn't.

    She'd slowly start killing other citizens in the highlands and blight-rezzing them, then starting up a faction claiming the rights on the highlands. There's no way she'd just walk him in and expect anything other than the "traditional" reaction to the Forsaken/Scourge. (Hint, the traditional reaction typically involves swords and probably fire.)

    Galen was already dead... It was the Troll Zengu who ordered his death while trying to get Trol'kalar.
    So she's an opportunist.

    Stromgarde is/was free of the blight. Which means free of the plague, which means in order for him to be resurrected she had to dig him up and get her Val'kyr on. Pretty sure he wasn't leaving around a last will and testament saying "Oh and hey, if I'm ever assassinated, please send my body off to The Forsaken. I kinda admire them and would enjoy having exposed joints that make all my armor look like crap."

    Resurrecting people to her cause vs. resurrecting people as mindslaves and feeding off their souls. Forsaken actually get convinced to join, it's not automatic.
    Let's see:
    1) Forsaken brought to life by the Val'kyr often "awake" confused and easily manipulated. This happens in game in Silverpine.
    2) These souls never asked to be brought back to life and in some cases may not actually even really understand their death.

    So congrats, you're essentially sexually assaulting the mentally disabled. Boy that Sylvanas is one stand-up faction leader!

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    Only in the right concentration. Kinda like water, too much will kill you, not enough will kill you, but you always need it.
    ...that's nothing special about the Forsaken, the same applies to the living. They designed Blight to kill undead so they could use it to fight the Scourge. Forsaken are anatomically identical to Scourge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    If Blizzard can I can too.

    Events can be hinted at, thrown out or whatever, but if it doesn't happen in game it doesn't matter and can be easily ret-conned.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    When something goes out the door at Blizzard—in a game, a novel, a manga, or anything other than mods or the table-top RPG—it's canon. (Source)
    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    No she wouldn't.

    She'd slowly start killing other citizens in the highlands and blight-rezzing them, then starting up a faction claiming the rights on the highlands. There's no way she'd just walk him in and expect anything other than the "traditional" reaction to the Forsaken/Scourge. (Hint, the traditional reaction typically involves swords and probably fire.)
    Blight doesn't function anything like Scourge Plague, there is no Blight-rezzing. That's the whole point of the Val'kyr. The only people Sylvanas has ordered killed are Ogres. Val'kyr can only resurrect humans. Nowhere does she order you to kill Stromgarde or Alliance people.

    You're the one who keeps insisting that Sylvanas is using Galen as a political tool, which has never been shown. Galen as a political tool would be to get Stromgarde to follow his authority. Dismissing the gameplay reason for Galen (replacement questgiver for Zengu), she likely resurrected him because he's the only one other than Zengu who knew how to get the sword and she can't resurrect Zengu.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    So she's an opportunist.

    Stromgarde is/was free of the blight. Which means free of the plague, which means in order for him to be resurrected she had to dig him up and get her Val'kyr on. Pretty sure he wasn't leaving around a last will and testament saying "Oh and hey, if I'm ever assassinated, please send my body off to The Forsaken. I kinda admire them and would enjoy having exposed joints that make all my armor look like crap."
    You are the one claiming that Sylvanas invades areas just to resurrect the population. Going to graveyards and resurrecting people who are already dead is nowhere near that. What she uses on the battlefield isn't for recruitment purposes, she's using their mindless state for tactical purposes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    1) Forsaken brought to life by the Val'kyr often "awake" confused and easily manipulated. This happens in game in Silverpine.
    This mindless enraged state is from raising someone who died in battle. Which Sylvanas takes advantage of as a weapon against he enemies.

    Normal raising for population growth happens in graveyards on people who were already dead. Some of these are mindless, enraged, or crazed; they get put down for safety purposes. Some are depressed or confused; they get TALKED TO and are free to choose their own path.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    2) These souls never asked to be brought back to life and in some cases may not actually even really understand their death.
    And if they don't like it they can go back to the afterlife. It's like waking someone up in the middle of the night: they can choose to stay awake and do their own thing/help you or they can go back to sleep.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    So congrats, you're essentially sexually assaulting the mentally disabled. Boy that Sylvanas is one stand-up faction leader!
    Well, she is a good faction leader. Though her motivation is selfish, she works to safeguard her faction and has their loyalty. However, I never said she was a good person. IDK why people like to lump on a bunch of extra shit to make her look worse than she is; she's pretty horrendous just on the things she's done.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-09-22 at 05:38 PM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    I imagine it would be just as much a shock as becoming undead in the first place, but they'd get over it and embrace their new living bodies. But with all the animosity they've garnered because of their reprehensible actions, it's not going to wipe the slate clean just because they aren't undead anymore. So while being fully alive again will allow them to feel more positive emotions, they still wouldn't really have anywhere else to go. They may split off into their own faction, just leave to go on their own, or stay with the undead Forsaken and try to make it less gruesome (especially if Sylvanas were restored).

    If this were possible, Sylvanas might become the most popular person on Azeroth. People go to her so Valkyr can resurrect whomever, then throw the cure at them to make them full living. Now there's lore resurrection for the masses.

    Also, this cure could be used on all the undead in the Scourge. That's a ton of restored people. More than in the Forsaken. The Alliance probably wouldn't have much qualms with accepting those people back.
    interesting, I suspect blizzard will put the following limitations in place.

    1. The process doesn't work on every undead person - x% success rate.
    2. Once you've been restored from undeath to living, you can never be raised as undead before
    3. Scourge cannot be restored, because the divine process draws on the person's soul/spirit and mind which is why it only works on some Forsaken.
    4. The Forsaken will be a group that will have undead as part of it - at least for the duration of wow
    5. - Death Knights - hmmm.... not sure whether they'd make it possible for Death knights to regain - I would say no, or the percentage is very small or it can happen if the Death Knights forsakes the darkness and fully embraces the light - Paladin style.

    With those restrictions - it's interesting how you'd paint Sylvannas - hmm.. I never thought of having a body in undeath meant not feeling many positive human emotions - but I shouldn't be surprised - a lot of people take pleasure in the carnal things of life far too much - eating, sleeping, sexual intercourse, even the sense of touch - they're all linked to us and do profoundly affect us, although not quite as much as the spiritual aspects such as belief, love, resolve - and it gets more confusing because the soul/mental aspects are a fusion of the two, so the absence of pleasurable physical things may make it almost impossible to shift emotions from rage and hate since there is no physical realisation of pleasurable thing.

    Furthermore, even if you had a strong sense of love and duty, honour, patience, kindness, imagine going on in an existence with all the pain and hatred directed at you plus the knowledge of all the atrocities you did as a mindless scourge before being free (since most forsaken went through that) - these endear negative emotions far more strongly which mighthelp diagnose their state.

    Getting living flesh again, I susppose will certainly feed more positive emotions, but alas, as we have witenssed in human beings, they can stilll live very cruel, wicked, selfish and evil lives - feeding on the pleasurable things in life like food, touch, sex etc without it influencing or generating positive deeds.

    It will boil down to the forsaken, there could be a profound releif at being able to feel, sleep, eat, touch etc that really causes them to feel oo second chacnce do something good, but I don't think their alignement will

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