Thread: Tanks in PvP

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  1. #1

    Tanks in PvP

    Okay, to frame this, I'm just going to explain my point of view and try and understand (form the comments) why Tanks are okay in PvP.

    I'm in a RANDOM Battleground (serious, I know) and I came across a Blood DK in similar PvP gear. I'm a Ret paladin.

    Inquisition is up, he's sitting in my Light's Hammer, and I pop cooldowns. 5 Holy Power TVs do NOTHING. This guy is invincible. I don't get his HP down below 80% despite a constant damage-focused rotation aimed straight at his face. Now, as a Ret (regardless of talent choices) I know what I'm doing. Well enough.

    But to me, this is ruining PvP - maybe I should phrase it like this: this is ruining PvP for me. I'm not a pro arena guy and I've never been much over 1900, but I'm not a baddie.. and I'm not a noob.

    Tank damage is obviously 'a thing' in PvE so much so that guilds complained about Prot Warriors not dishing out enough DPS compared to Palas and Druids (or Monks) specifically. But why is it fair that tanks are subject to a baseline 72% damage reduction the same as healers and DPS? They have so much passive health (which isn't nerfed - by that I mean stamina/HP) and tend to use active mitigation to full effect (especially dodges and parries).

    This Blood DK was way better at DPSing that I was at Tanking, and he eventually got bored.. COIing me with infinite runes until I got ganked by an infinity-stun rogue.

    So why doesn't everyone run around as a Blood DK? They seem to put out decent enough damage, have the same utility as DPS DKs, and have access to the same ludicrous talents.

    It just seems.... shit. The idea that a Tank can go into a BG (and I have the same problem with Palas, Bears, and BrMs) and just not die unless there are 4-5 guys whaling on him. And no, it isn't acceptable 'because he's a tank' he might stand toe-to-toe with a raidboss, but he IS NOT A RAID BOSS HIMSELF. I don't expect this guy to have unlimited Death Strikes and other defensive cooldowns in player vs player scenarios.

    It isn't fair. I play a Ret Paladin and an Arms Warrior mainly and while I'm aware of their weakenesses, I accept them where they are acceptable. I rely on other players and try to play to my strengths as they do theirs.

    Blood DKs especially are just too independent when it comes to surviving. I appreciate active mitigation as an approach to tank gameplay, but in PvP they simply take too little damage. I do not think that seeing my 120k SLAMS turn into 12k Slams against a Blood DK is acceptable.

    Am I alone? Should I give up now, or has Blizzard mentioned anything about tanks in non-rated PvP?

    Thanks.

  2. #2
    tanks always were very tough for melee, this isn't new, just ignore him and move on.

    if you have to kill him just spam silence/disarm/ stun him when he gets low to prevent his cds
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  3. #3
    Scarab Lord Roose's Avatar
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    I have a SS saved somewhere of a blood DK in EoTS with 19 KBs, 15 mill damage, and 5 mill healing. No idea how they do it.

  4. #4
    Sure, tanks can be hard to down by yourself but with another DPS and some well-executed CC you can drop them like anyone else.

    The better question is, should you? In BGs pvp is objective-oriented, and there is no objective that suggests you should be spending 10-15 minutes trying to rambo a tank down all by yourself. Keep him CCed and keep your eye on the prize.

    They are a lot more annoying in 2s arena, but while they are hard to kill they also are not putting out so much DPS that they are a threat. A lot of their abilities rely on resources they gain from being attacked, so by ignoring them, they won't be able to do much either way.

  5. #5
    to kill a tank is easier than to kill a healer though

  6. #6
    Blood Dk's are the exception to the rule.

    None of the other tanks are viable in PvP. I mean perhaps as flag runners, but they won't be a serious threat to anyone, and they do die. They are hard to kill, but do die.

    Blood DK's on the other hand are just utterly broken in PvP. They hit hard enough without vengeance, they have access to all the PvP talents and they have Necrotic Strike. Add to this the fact that they can heal themselves almost as well as a healer, plus absorbs, plus cooldowns, and it is obvious why they are viable for PvP.

    So it is not a -Tanks in PvP issue, but rather a Blood Death Knights in PvP issue.
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  7. #7
    Any competetive ranged class take a dump on them though, it's only melee that struggle. If you wanna kill them you can't stand toe to toe without chain-CCing them with silences, stuns and disarms, you gotta play as a ranged class IE you gotta spec into ranged slow, and freedom judgement HoW Exorcism kite him. Stun him on CD and burst him as hard as you can during the stun and then continue to kite.

    I have dropped some DKs with my WW monk by kiting and using my CCs right, you just gotta handle them right. Pumping your "5 HP TVs" into them does nothing because he mitigates them. Parry parry parry dodge bloodshield. It's not that they hit weaker or that he heals like a healer just, but that they don't hit.

  8. #8
    Old God apepi's Avatar
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    Run around as a mistweaver dps, it is like dk but even funner.
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  9. #9
    Legendary! Blueobelisk's Avatar
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    Nah, you just got countered. Tanks aren't that big of a deal,you just need a teammate to help you or hope he runs into someone else.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Jez7 View Post
    Tank damage is obviously 'a thing' in PvE so much so that guilds complained about Prot Warriors not dishing out enough DPS compared to Palas and Druids (or Monks) specifically. But why is it fair that tanks are subject to a baseline 72% damage reduction the same as healers and DPS? They have so much passive health (which isn't nerfed - by that I mean stamina/HP) and tend to use active mitigation to full effect (especially dodges and parries).
    Let me clear things up a bit.
    1) You're a melee and thus you will never do any significant damage to a tank (higher armour, additional mitigation against physical damage by concept).
    2) This "tank damage thing in PvE" is only a thing in PvE. Vengeance does not apply in PvP since all tanks gain it only by hits from mobs not players. This means you were facing a low dps player and - unfortunately for you - did only a tiny portion of you usual damage to him/her.
    3) "Active mitigation" - as the name says needs to be applied actively. I know that your abilities for CC is only limited (I'm ret myself), but during every CC none of the real mitigation CDs is available. And: dodge/parry/miss are passive mitigation. It is your own fault if you choose to attack your target from it's front and not from it's back.
    4) As mentioned by others: blood DK are an exception in PvP. They have a lower limit for their mitigation and self healing.

    As wiep said: blood DKs should be kited. They have limited movement anyways and lack of gap closer compared to other melee. In addition almost none of their healing can be applied when at range neither their most powerful active mitigation tools.
    Last edited by Homsel; 2013-09-18 at 07:33 AM.

  11. #11
    Any ranged class will bring him to his knees, like others mentioned: Blood is an insane counter towards melee and has been for a while now. Just CC him and run away.

  12. #12
    If you're melee, stop standing next to a fucking blood DK. You're feeding him heals with every death strike. It's as easy as that. Back your cute ass up and let the casters take care of it. Non-retards can handle blood DKs with ease.

    Meanwhile...

    Noob Warrior: OMG dk so OP wtf... lmao just killed that mage/lock/ele in a stun
    Noob Rogue: dk need nerf, blizz sux... lmao just killed that mage/lock/ele in a stun

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldhearth View Post
    Noob Warrior: OMG dk so OP wtf... lmao just killed that Spriest/lock/ele in a stun
    Noob Rogue: dk need nerf, blizz sux... lmao just killed that Spriest/lock/ele in a stun
    Fix'd that for you, mages can't die in stuns(they can't be stunned).

  14. #14
    Old God apepi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiep View Post
    Fix'd that for you, mages can't die in stuns(they can't be stunned).
    I think they can be killed in stuns...they are not mistweavers:P.
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  15. #15
    Dreadlord Ninaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    Blood Dk's are the exception to the rule.

    None of the other tanks are viable in PvP. I mean perhaps as flag runners, but they won't be a serious threat to anyone, and they do die. They are hard to kill, but do die.

    Blood DK's on the other hand are just utterly broken in PvP. They hit hard enough without vengeance, they have access to all the PvP talents and they have Necrotic Strike. Add to this the fact that they can heal themselves almost as well as a healer, plus absorbs, plus cooldowns, and it is obvious why they are viable for PvP.

    So it is not a -Tanks in PvP issue, but rather a Blood Death Knights in PvP issue.
    I agree with this completely. Tanks in general aren't a problem. Blood DKs are.
    Mastery will fix it.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    Blood Dk's are the exception to the rule.

    None of the other tanks are viable in PvP. I mean perhaps as flag runners, but they won't be a serious threat to anyone, and they do die. They are hard to kill, but do die.

    Blood DK's on the other hand are just utterly broken in PvP. They hit hard enough without vengeance, they have access to all the PvP talents and they have Necrotic Strike. Add to this the fact that they can heal themselves almost as well as a healer, plus absorbs, plus cooldowns, and it is obvious why they are viable for PvP.

    So it is not a -Tanks in PvP issue, but rather a Blood Death Knights in PvP issue.
    This. You're fighting a tank (high physical mitigation) that tanks by healing himself through his rotation abilities. They are an extremely good counter against melee dps. That said, there should be very few times you should have to 1v1 a Blood DK.
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  17. #17
    i used to pvp as a arms warrior in cata (have not done much pvp in mop) Blood dks were generally not worth the effort. if i ran into one 1v1 usually i just kited till the death grip. Intimidating shout > heroic leap away (assuming they dont have there fear immunity up) . not worth the time or effort to do 0 damege to them.

  18. #18
    Brewmaster dacoolist's Avatar
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    Blood DK's during Cata at one time had Vengeance - and the more damage you did to them before the patch that made vengeance not activate vs players... Blood Dk's were GODS

  19. #19
    Yeah I was more playing around with them dying in a silence though 15 sec stun trinket, 2 iceblocks and the regular trinket so unless they are bad they aren't caught in longer stuns capable of killing them that often unless it's coupled with a silence.

  20. #20
    Moderator Nicola's Avatar
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    There are multiple things going on in this scenario and I'll briefly explain all of em.
    1) You're a Ret Paladin, he's a Blood Death Knight, meaning he counters you in a 1v1 scenario, which brings us to point 2.
    2) 1v1 isn't balanced, PvP is a team game after all.
    3) The buff to resilience means that players will be taking less damage. Because the lack of s14 gear to counter the increased resilience, classes with high sustain and durability are a lot harder to kill, for now.

    Once you start getting conquest gear, tanks are going to be less of a problem, but regardless of that, Blood Death Knights still counter you and a good one shouldn't die 1v1 to a Ret Paladin ever. Just ask for some help from your friendly mage/warlock/hunter/anything that can kite and he'll go down in a matter of time.

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