Alright, basic but complicated question O-o

[-aiko-]

Long story short, the skill cap is higher. So one obscenely good player can sometimes carry a couple of bad ones.

Especially with the Limit Break system. I actually managed a HM Titan pug today with a really, really close finish. Pretty much on the first set of bombs in P2 only the tank and I survived. However, we managed to stay alive (hard as FUCK to heal through stomp with one healer) to fill up LB 3. Everyone gets resurrected and we proceed to finish it. Pulse of Life is so OP!

[Katchii]

See, that just doesn't scream "high skill cap" to me. It sounds more like a set of mechanics that are way more forgiving than people want to admit, combined with what basically sounds like a do-over button

I can see how someone who hasn't experienced it could say this, but the trick is being good enough to survive long enough to fill up the Limit Break bar, activate the healing limit break (which has a cast time, and can only be done by Bards and Healers) while avoiding attacks, paying attention to mechanics, using skills necessary to keep threat and stay alive (if you're the tank) and if you're the healer keeping the party alive, managing your mana, etc...And then once the rez goes off, everyone needs to get healed back up and rebuff, since they don't start at full health.

"high skill cap" in an MMO doesn't necessarily mean difficult, it means understanding and utilizing your tools effectively. Heroic Raiding in WoW is "difficult" because it requires coordination along with knowing your toolkit, which isn't really difficult, but requires practice and repetition (like riding a bike for the first time). The difference between WoW and this scenario is that in WoW, if someone screws up bad enough, you'll never recover whereas in FFXIV, if you have someone good enough to react and adjust to the situation, they can allow the group to recover.

[CandyCotton Marshmallows]

I think he meant that it's the first mmo he's played in 5 years that got him hooked. :>

I was tired and my comprehension was abysmal, my apologies to the poster for being a bit smartass.

In my mind, I compare that to something like Heroic Al'akir where if just one of our DPS died in Phase 1 (In 25-man) chances are we weren't going to make it out of Phase 2 with any consistency just because of how tightly the fight was tuned.

I'd have to agree with the sentiment that it is nice that one or two deaths doesn't mean the whole group fails. I've never thought that was a great way to design something consistently (once in a while, fine). It has always been fun being one that survives and finishing the fight; and it comes with some prestige and honor from the ones that died as well (this has happened in a few fights in WoW; hearing vent while you are 2 manning the last 30% of a raid boss that is purely mechanic based as a dps with a tank that is able to take the beating and survive is an ego boost ;D).

Kite tanking for a bad tank can be fun. It is also easier to heal a smart dps than a bad tank Say an archer/bard that can kite with a conjurer/white mage that has CC is an amazing combo to tackle pretty big obstacles

The challenge is in the mechanics. Just because some people die doesn't mean you should instantly fail. More people alive, means things die faster. I don't like enrage timers, those are 'gimmicky' to me. If you lose half your group to a mechanic, they failed, but if you can live, and hold up to mechanics while not getting insta-gibbed, then you deserve to finish the fight. Failing the fight because x people died seems a bit of an artificial barrier to content, that should only hold true on rare occasions. The challenge should be the mechanics. If people die, it just increases the challenge for who is left, because add spawns can become serious dps checks, or without a tank, not everyone will be able to survive not avoidable boss damage ... etc.

It is a different way of looking at fights in general though. It is an adjustment. WoW has trained a lot of people that you need to have X dps to beat a boss. But it doesn't have to be that way for every fight. In fact, that becomes part of the problem in the attitudes of the players in the genre. Because dps tuning is so tight, people start doing things like finishing casts and taking damage that shouldn't have. They worry more about topping meters, because ultimately that prevents wipes, instead of avoiding mechanics and proper execution, as a way to defeat fights. It should be about a team as a whole defeating the odds, not an individual making mistakes ruining the whole group. I find that more realistic in some ways.

I've soloed some old wrath heroic dungeon bosses at 80 on an xp locked pali in cata (i considered doing herald of titans on), from about 80% boss health. Not only was it fun, not only did the group get to watch proper execution of the fight, it was also nice to see the encouragement in chat, and the cheering once I killed it. It may not be a great example; but it is one that I relate to in this situation. It takes a long time to do it that way. You have to minimalize mistakes.

Mionelol has proven that even current content in WoW could be soloed with no gimmicks, just dedication and time. So with regards to that, it sort of proves that it isn't really something wrong with this game, it is something that can happen in any game; especially when you remember that 4/8 player content isn't the big raid content, that comes soon with the 24 player stuff ... and from what I've read about some fights, there are ones that a death wipes the group, just on harder content than is being referred to.

Then it by definition can't really be a challenge for eight people. They're completely contradictory concepts. Barring the existence of some scaling mechanism, both concepts just can't be true.

Challenge is personal though. Skill levels are different. You can't be sure that Kalynn and her friends are not at the skill level of the top 1% and -that- is the reason she can carry. Because some can do it, doesn't mean all can. A fight can be difficult, but some people are really good at gaming and can beat the odds ... ex: again, mionelol taking on two heoric cata 5m bosses at the same time. Soloing yogg no matter how outgeared she is, is a mechanic fight and a serious challenge that a full group of people that were 85 (and I'm sure 90s as well) still wiped on consistently.

I've killed quite a few bosses in WoW, btw, with people dead. Mechanics have started to become more punishing lately, but deaths shouldn't always = wipes ... and please remember this isn't the hardest content yet. I recall someone saying the current HM are really middle difficulty level; not to mention the equivalent of these (even 8m) being dungeons, not raids.


It may well end up being easy to you; but if you look at what is being said, to the average players, this content is tough. You are seeing people who are selling runs; which are always the most progressive players in any game that can carry. This exists in WoW as well. People usually sell last boss mounts, or full runs and all gear drops, achievement runs, etc of CURRENT WoW content. That means that person they sell the run to can usually die and not affect the group because of their skill and/or gear.


finally, Katchii says it pretty well in this post above.

[philefluxx]

Best way to describe it is that it takes all the great things about older MMO's and couples them with some of the better systems of newer MMO's. But it plays and feels very traditional which I appreciate.

[Katchii]

But what I was getting at was the idea that a full 25% of your group could just be dead and you still consistently beat the encounter. (As the guy said that I initially replied to) That's clearly a LOT of wiggle room in the tuning, and therefore it really can't be nearly as tightly tuned as people (including the guy that made the initial comment!) make it out to be. It just can't, it's mathematically mutually exclusive.

Mechanic heavy fights without enrage timers. Usually, larger groups are a liability in mechanic heavy fights due to them draining healer mana and causing the tank to move or change rotation/ priority which can cause him to lose threat and then the whole fight goes haywire.

In those types of situations, it's entirely possible for a fight to be equally challenging for a full group as it is for a group with 25% of the group dead, the group with 25% dead will just take longer to clear.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

Mechanic heavy fights without enrage timers. Usually, larger groups are a liability in mechanic heavy fights due to them draining healer mana and causing the tank to move or change rotation/ priority which can cause him to lose threat and then the whole fight goes haywire.

In those types of situations, it's entirely possible for a fight to be equally challenging for a full group as it is for a group with 25% of the group dead, the group with 25% dead will just take longer to clear.

So you get two replacements that CAN do the right thing, while standing in the right place at the right time. And suddenly "titan mode" becomes a lot easier because you aren't carrying two numpties that can't work out whether their y-fronts are supposed to cover their head or their crotch. Maybe there SHOULD be an enrage timer to make it harder (if not impossible) to carry people? Because then it would be challenging for the full group and impossible to carry people. I.e. a hard fight.

[PizzaSHARK]

really, REALLY deep Role-playing, D&D style video games, you will like FFXIV.

Except there's none of this in FF14. In order to role-play, you need a world to develop a character within. FF14's world only exists where it touches the single-player plot; everywhere else, there's almost nothing.

[Deleted]

All that being said, I've made somewhere around 800k gil in about 1weeks time crafting. The time is worth the reward.

On a related note if your concerned about investing a day into leveling a crafting skill. Just resub to WoW and play LFR and get your instant gratification no skill required rewards. Some of the level 50content is actually quite difficult and gated. I.E. you can't even set foot into the first "raid" until you complete Titan Hard. Titan Hard carries sell on my server for 200-250k gil. The reason? you actually need to be smart, react quickly, and oh yea... actually pull the #'s expect of your class. This game is not for the LFR shitters that WoW has become.

But if you do decide to play, Look me up, i'd be happy to sell a full Relic Quest line Carry, or individual pieces. We can work out a deal on paypal... LFR heros from wow, are a even better source of income then my max level crafting...

[/I]

200-250k?? We sell a Run on Titan for 700k lol. And the whole Relic Questline for 1.4M...

[Katchii]

200-250k?? We sell a Run on Titan for 700k lol. And the whole Relic Questline for 1.4M...

I've always wanted to be in a mercenary guild/linkshell/freecompany. It's so lucrative, but I've never been able to get passed the feeling of taking advantage of people with more money than sense (or skill) and I've always felt that hard content is for people who have the skill and drive to be there and that the rewards were a badge of honor and prestige.

That being said...if I had 1.4 Mil to spare I'd pay those greedy mercenaries so I didn't have to spend so much damn time getting there. I know I have the skill to get there eventually, but getting a guaranteed group that can clear the content on the day and time I'm able to do just sounds awesome.

[Kalyyn]

So you get two replacements that CAN do the right thing, while standing in the right place at the right time. And suddenly "titan mode" becomes a lot easier because you aren't carrying two numpties that can't work out whether their y-fronts are supposed to cover their head or their crotch. Maybe there SHOULD be an enrage timer to make it harder (if not impossible) to carry people? Because then it would be challenging for the full group and impossible to carry people. I.e. a hard fight.

That would be extremely anti-Final Fantasy though. Have you ever played a single player Final Fantasy game? It's not just common, but expected, that you will defeat a boss with only one person alive, with only 10 hp left, and you just blow everything and hope that jeebus loves you. FFXIV follows that tradition. These fights are not about beating a set timer, but about answering a question: When both you and the boss have 1 hp left, how bad do you want it?

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200-250k?? We sell a Run on Titan for 700k lol. And the whole Relic Questline for 1.4M...

You'd probably actually make more money doing more runs for cheaper. Like, a lot more. With the way that the economy is hemorrhaging money (unless you're one of the few people with a lvl50 crafting job), basically nobody has 1.4m, let alone enough to spend that on a piece of gear.

[Katchii]

The moving goalposts here are great. Now it's just about the flavor of the franchise?

The statement still refers back to skill since you have to be good enough to be the one who survived against all odds. I see no issues with the statement. Seems like you're just trying to pick a fight. Why?

[Kalyyn]

The moving goalposts here are great. Now it's just about the flavor of the franchise?

Look, I've told you everything I can about it at this point. If you're genuinely curious about the game, just play it and see for yourself. If not, why the actual fuck are you in the Final Fantasy forums?

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I guess I just have something against nonsense.

Refer back to what Butler said. If, "Hey, be the two out of eight that survives and you can still win!" is actually a thing, then what happens when you just....bring eight decent players? Yeah, then it's just a silly pushover, like I'm sure it is. You can't have it both ways, no matter how much you want to tell yourself that it's super-amazing one-in-a-million skill level that let you beat it.

Being decent, or even amazing, in this game does not guarantee your survival. You will randomly die to things you can't control. A lot, actually.

[Kalyyn]

Um, I do play it? Yaaaay?

Then why don't you just run some hard modes and see for yourself? Why are we having this argument in the first place?

You really just cannot make up your mind on the nature of the content, can you?

Well, that's due primarily to two things:
1. You're not actually hearing what I'm saying, you're hearing what you want me to be saying (probably because, like most people, you want to be right)
2. The content itself is actually rather sporadic in nature.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

Being decent, or even amazing, in this game does not guarantee your survival. You will randomly die to things you can't control. A lot, actually.

So the fights are only really "hard" because you have no control over your survivability?

[-aiko-]

200-250k?? We sell a Run on Titan for 700k lol. And the whole Relic Questline for 1.4M...

So....what, you only successfully sell to legacy players? That is a very unrealistic amount of gil for most people to have. I'm sorry, but this is just a stupid idea. You would make more selling at reasonable prices so you bring in more sales. No one is going to pay 1.4m for the whole quest, let alone have the 1.4m to spend.

[Kalyyn]

So the fights are only really "hard" because you have no control over your survivability?

Only? No. Fights tend to have more than one mechanic, if you weren't aware.

But partially? Yes.

[Aggathon]

Only? No. Fights tend to have more than one mechanic, if you weren't aware.

But partially? Yes.

So more than one mechanic makes a fight hard? There is a big difference between randomly dying and not being aware what you died to. If the game just randomly kills you and you have no control over that, can't adjust strategies, etc., then that is just a poorly designed game, not a difficulty to the game that would make it hard, challenging, and fun; just annoying.

[-aiko-]

So more than one mechanic makes a fight hard?

It depends on the mechanics, but basically yes. I mean, how do you define what makes a fight hard? It is just...hard. I can break down Titan into requiring coordination, timing and complete situational awareness but is that what makes it hard? I think that is something that each individual has to answer on their own.

[Kalyyn]

I guess all I can really say for sure about this game is that after doing progression raiding in WoW for 4 years (being in a raid group which actively competed for server firsts for 2 of those years), I can honestly say that this game has much more meaningful difficulty for me. In WoW, all I could do as a healer was keep people topped off. If they chose to die anyway, there was nothing I could do but accept the wipe. No battle res (paladin), no ability to kite the boss, nothing. So there was no "real" challenge. I did my job, and the rest was 100% on the shoulders of other people who I couldn't control. If they were stupid, I was punished for it.

Now, I can actually make a difference. Tank eats shit? I'll kite the boss while the other healer Raises him. Adds out of control? Time to AoE stun spam. I can even keep something CC'd for a couple minutes if I have to. It feels so damn good to not be tied to the performance of the people I'm healing. I actually have some control over how the fight progresses now, rather than the traditional healer role of "you're all at full health? Well then, nothing more i can do."

[-aiko-]

If the game just randomly kills you and you have no control over that

Nothing like that, there are situations beyond your own control but that could have been prevented by the rest of your group. Example: in phase 2 of the Titan encounter, he encases people in rock and they need to be broken out. However, right after he encases someone he always follows up with a knockback attack. If he aims it at the encased person, and the team breaks him out at a bad time, he can hit by it and get knocked off of the platform without having any chance to move. That would be out of his control, but could have been prevented with better coordination from the whole party.