View Poll Results: Is Siege of Orgrimmar too easy?

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  • Very undertuned

    81 9.45%
  • Easy to begin with, but gets harder

    463 54.03%
  • A comfortable difficulty all the way through.

    280 32.67%
  • Overtuned, too difficult. Needs nerfing.

    33 3.85%
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  1. #21
    Vastly overtuned. Every boss feels like a brick wall.

  2. #22
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nekovivie View Post
    Vastly overtuned. Every boss feels like a brick wall.
    Do you have some concrete examples of this? Norushen I can see being the first "wall" for many guilds, because of the strict coordination it requires. I found Immerseus to be easy but you can easily wipe (as we did) if you underestimate the mechanics and don't heal enough of the little slimes in later waves. Protectors ironically seemed even easier than Immerseus and we have never had real issues with that, but I could see how tunneling DPS can cause a wipe if they don't switch targets properly.

    What makes you think every boss is a brick wall?
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    You are asking if one of the Normal tiers that took top guilds longer to kill is too easy?
    I take it you talked to the top guilds and asked them why it took longer? Could not have been the fact most of the top are running 3-4 groups filled mostly with alts and funneling all the gear to the mains and that they are testing out how the final release of the machanics were over a couple of days and number crunching / comparing logs from all the raid groups... Noooo clearly it was just that it was too hard and the normals made them wipe non stop!

    corelation without cause... always the worst way to look at data!

  4. #24
    Thank you all for your feedback it's really interesting to read!

    A lot of you are complaining that guilds are overgearing the raid and there for making it easy for us. I agree that this is the case, but I think it is wrong. I don't think it should be so easy to overgear something in the first week (my team was only 4/13 heroic last tier, so most of us had a few heroic bits and bobs but far from full hc).

    Also, I think the majority of you are missing the bigger picture here. When I talk about "Easy" I am also talking about the originality, complexity and uniqueness of the mechanics themselves. For example, Immerseus has an interesting mechanic where reaching 0 health does not kill him. We haven't seen this before and it made the fighe enjoyable as it was a new experience. Protectors was pretty simple, nothing new here. However it is the second boss so ill let it off. Norushen feels a lot like Gara'jal the Spiritbinder, but the corruption bar adds a nice spice to it.

    Furthermore, Sha of Pride was also a lot of fun. I like how the pride worked. But it wasn't anything new. Deathbringer Saurfang worked in a similar fashion in where getting hit by abilities increased the boss' blood power and can be compared with the player's pride bar in the Sha fight.

    It get's more straight forward. Galakras felt like a combination of Razorscale and Horridon. Iron Juggernaut had no specific mechanics, just simple "move out of stuff" and so did the Kor'Kron Dark Shaman. Nothing new here. Just move, move and move. General Nazgrim continues this legacy however the changes in his battle stance makes things more interesting. Bosses like Durumu the forgotten however was a breath of fresh air and was really original.

    I am yet to see past this point in the raid, but so far I think the bosses are lacking originality in design and it kinda bores me. They're easy to learn, easy to get the hang off -- because we've seen it all before. That's my opinion anyway.

    EDIT: I spent a couple hours trying Garrosh last night. The fight seemed very difficult and im looking forward to the challenge!
    Last edited by Obsolus; 2013-09-18 at 03:43 PM.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Obsolus View Post
    Also, I think the majority of you are missing the bigger picture here. When I talk about "Easy" I am also talking about the originality, complexity and uniqueness of the mechanics themselves. For example, Immerseus has an interesting mechanic where reaching 0 health does not kill him. We haven't seen this before and it made the fighe enjoyable as it was a new experience. Protectors was pretty simple, nothing new here. However it is the second boss so ill let it off. Norushen feels a lot like Gara'jal the Spiritbinder, but the corruption bar adds a nice spice to it.

    Furthermore, Sha of Pride was also a lot of fun. I like how the pride worked. But it wasn't anything new. Deathbringer Saurfang worked in a similar fashion in where getting hit by abilities increased the boss' blood power and can be compared with the player's pride bar in the Sha fight.

    It get's more straight forward. Galakras felt like a combination of Razorscale and Horridon. Iron Juggernaut had no specific mechanics, just simple "move out of stuff" and so did the Kor'Kron Dark Shaman. Nothing new here. Just move, move and move. General Nazgrim continues this legacy however the changes in his battle stance makes things more interesting. Bosses like Durumu the forgotten however was a breath of fresh air and was really original.

    I am yet to see past this point in the raid, but so far I think the bosses are lacking originality in design and it kinda bores me. They're easy to learn, easy to get the hang off -- because we've seen it all before. That's my opinion anyway.
    The game is 8 years old. There are dozens of other MMOs out there. Please come with unique abilities for 14 new bosses then get back to me. There simply isn't a lot of things you can do that haven't been done before.

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  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Obsolus View Post
    Thank you all for your feedback it's really interesting to read!

    A lot of you are complaining that guilds are overgearing the raid and there for making it easy for us. I agree that this is the case, but I think it is wrong. I don't think it should be so easy to overgear something in the first week (my team was only 4/13 heroic last tier, so most of us had a few heroic bits and bobs but far from full hc).

    Also, I think the majority of you are missing the bigger picture here. When I talk about "Easy" I am also talking about the originality, complexity and uniqueness of the mechanics themselves. For example, Immerseus has an interesting mechanic where reaching 0 health does not kill him. We haven't seen this before and it made the fighe enjoyable as it was a new experience. Protectors was pretty simple, nothing new here. However it is the second boss so ill let it off. Norushen feels a lot like Gara'jal the Spiritbinder, but the corruption bar adds a nice spice to it.

    Furthermore, Sha of Pride was also a lot of fun. I like how the pride worked. But it wasn't anything new. Deathbringer Saurfang worked in a similar fashion in where getting hit by abilities increased the boss' blood power and can be compared with the player's pride bar in the Sha fight.

    It get's more straight forward. Galakras felt like a combination of Razorscale and Horridon. Iron Juggernaut had no specific mechanics, just simple "move out of stuff" and so did the Kor'Kron Dark Shaman. Nothing new here. Just move, move and move. General Nazgrim continues this legacy however the changes in his battle stance makes things more interesting. Bosses like Durumu the forgotten however was a breath of fresh air and was really original.

    I am yet to see past this point in the raid, but so far I think the bosses are lacking originality in design and it kinda bores me. They're easy to learn, easy to get the hang off -- because we've seen it all before. That's my opinion anyway.

    EDIT: I spent a couple hours trying Garrosh last night. The fight seemed very difficult and im looking forward to the challenge!
    And we come back to MoP stupidly high difficulty and complexity of raids. Normal raids USED to not have so many mechanics untill the very last bosses. But they decided to cater to hardcore elitists in MoP and they introduced an stupid amount of mechanics in very early bosses, many of them very threatening ones.

    Doing that killed almost 50% of the Normal raiding scene in the very first tier (T14, HoF specifically). ToT killed some more guilds.

    SoO is stil overtuned for what a NORMAL raid should be. And of course T14 and T15 were even MORE overtuned.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Odina View Post
    I take it you talked to the top guilds and asked them why it took longer? Could not have been the fact most of the top are running 3-4 groups filled mostly with alts and funneling all the gear to the mains and that they are testing out how the final release of the machanics were over a couple of days and number crunching / comparing logs from all the raid groups... Noooo clearly it was just that it was too hard and the normals made them wipe non stop!

    corelation without cause... always the worst way to look at data!
    They always run several groups, and if you saw the streams, theyw ere not testing the fights, they were wiping because it wasnt easy.
    Thrall always was, is, and will be my true Warchief. Garrosh and Vol'jin werent/arent.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    If they made HM so hard that even the current worl first guilds only kill 1-3 bosses per week, then us mortals will never advance anywhere.
    There's a balance though between 1-3 bosses per week and 10 bosses in a day.
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  8. #28
    Stood in the Fire Bombino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    If they made HM so hard that even the current worl first guilds only kill 1-3 bosses per week, then us mortals will never advance anywhere.
    This^^ With the speed of new content, if it took top guilds a month+ to clear heroics, much much less guilds overall would be clearing heroic. I think they set it at a pretty nice pace, time will tell.

  9. #29
    Normal IMO is pretty easy, this week even if you don't have a bunch of heroics from last tier. The fights have been out and documented, just youtube and learn what you need. Heroics this week are out and I gotta say they are pretty awesome, lots of challenges ahead. If you're looking for challenges, time to get into heroics, even the first one, Immerseus, I honestly can say took my group about 2 hours of wipes to get down.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Fluorescent0 View Post
    There's a balance though between 1-3 bosses per week and 10 bosses in a day.
    And that balance has never applied to hardcore guilds like Blood Legion, Midwinter, Paragon, etc. who will spend the entire first day of heroics working on the content.

    Blood Legion, for instance, was 11/13h ToT within the first week of heroic progression. So, clearly, hardcore end-game guilds are not the metric by which difficulty is measured.

    Don't get me wrong, it's not like this thread surprises me. These exact threads pop up during the first week of heroic progression for every tier. "Oh man, Paragon is 11/12h ICC already, is it too easy?" "Oh man, Blood Legion is 11/13h ToT already, is it too easy?"

    No, it's not too easy. Hardcore end-game guilds will never have a problem clearing content. Stop using them as a metric.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Belloc View Post
    And that balance has never applied to hardcore guilds like Blood Legion, Midwinter, Paragon, etc. who will spend the entire first day of heroics working on the content.

    Blood Legion, for instance, was 11/13h ToT within the first week of heroic progression. So, clearly, hardcore end-game guilds are not the metric by which difficulty is measured.
    Wrong. The only raid we've seen 10 kills in a day (9 actually, but you get the point) was ICC, which had a 10-week gate period for guilds to experiment about everything and to gear up.
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  12. #32
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    Our team had a hard time figuring out if it's just that the raid is easy or that we are good (and outgear it). I've determined that it's our gear/skill. We were 7/13 Heroic in ToT and farmed those bosses to get everyone geared for SoO. Everyone in our group is 540+ and we got to 10/14 in the first week. Tonight, we stormed through and caught up to our current prog in just a couple hours. At first, we thought it was easymode, but I feel like it's just that we outgear it. Still, it's a nice change to us. My bf & I have never been in a spot where we cleared most of normal in the first week of a tier. We've had horrible luck in the past with losing half of our raid group at the end of tiers due to people quitting WoW/raiding. (We seriously only have 3 people from the original group from the tier before ToT >_>) This time we have a more stable group with competent players. I'm so excited! ^__^ !
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  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    ...
    They always run several groups, and if you saw the streams, theyw ere not testing the fights, they were wiping because it wasnt easy.
    Don't know which stream you watched but the one I watched (Midwinter) did wipe on purpose on e.g. Paragons of the Klaxxi to see when each Paragon will use which ability, how much damage each ability does, when adds will spawn and so on. It was funny to see how fast they can kill the first one Paragons just to look and see what the others will do and if they activate in the same order every time. You could see and feel that they don't kill them because they don't want to.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Fluorescent0 View Post
    Wrong. The only raid we've seen 10 kills in a day (9 actually, but you get the point) was ICC, which had a 10-week gate period for guilds to experiment about everything and to gear up.
    How does that make me wrong?

    Furthermore, that 10-week gate period didn't include any experimenting with heroic mechanics, so I'm not sure how that helped them prepare for anything. Also, I'm sure all that 264 ICC normal gear helped them so much more than their full 258s from ToGC.

    I could also point out that, aside from end-bosses, heroic MSV, HoF, and ToES were cleared the day they were released. I could point out that ToGC was cleared on the first week.

    Sure, this tier might be going faster for end-game guilds, but let's be honest... nothing about it is surprising. These guilds have been working harder and harder with every raid. They've been testing every boss. None of this is a surprise and none of it tells us that fights are easy or hard.

  15. #35
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    And we come back to MoP stupidly high difficulty and complexity of raids. Normal raids USED to not have so many mechanics untill the very last bosses. But they decided to cater to hardcore elitists in MoP and they introduced an stupid amount of mechanics in very early bosses, many of them very threatening ones.

    Doing that killed almost 50% of the Normal raiding scene in the very first tier (T14, HoF specifically). ToT killed some more guilds.

    SoO is stil overtuned for what a NORMAL raid should be. And of course T14 and T15 were even MORE overtuned.
    Can you explain more? I mean, I thought T14 was brutal (my original MoP guild broke apart on Stone Guard). ToT nearly destroyed my current guild (stuck on Horridon for ages, although I personally never found it that hard as a tank). Norushen right now seems to be pretty challenging for the average guilds.

    What would you prefer? Bosses that have maybe 1 mechanic tops? I'm genuinely curious because I've long though that raids have been overtuned for average run-of-the-mill raiders for a while, but I can't pinpoint exactly what I would change.
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  16. #36
    Normal is fine. If you are a normal raid guild you shouldn't be killing so many bosses straight away. Normal mode has to last for you.
    If you are a heroic guild you cleared normal last week.
    If you cannot kill first boss, you are more suited to Flex.
    Normal is not overtuned at all in either size mode.

  17. #37
    Last raid didn't have a very smooth progression curve... Horridon and troll council were far harder than bosses like JiKun and twin consorts yet were at the start of the instance blocking peoples progress. SoO gradually gets harder as you go along (not in every case but in general it does).

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    What would you prefer? Bosses that have maybe 1 mechanic tops?
    Bosses can be hard without being ridiculously complicated, as most of the MoP encounters seem to be. Festergut was considered to be a raid check in his day, and he had what, a tank swap, a stack and spread, and a CC that had to be soaked by ranged, and that was it? Oh, and Heroic added bouncing balls that had to be juked. So at most you had to deal with three mechanics, in the hardest mode. Not to say that ICC didn't have some obnoxiously complicated encounters (Dreamwalker, Arthas) but that's where raid bosses tend to start now. Actually Immerseus is basically just a reverse Dreamwalker.
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  19. #39
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ishau View Post
    Normal is fine. If you are a normal raid guild you shouldn't be killing so many bosses straight away. Normal mode has to last for you.
    If you are a heroic guild you cleared normal last week.
    If you cannot kill first boss, you are more suited to Flex.
    Normal is not overtuned at all in either size mode.
    Mostly agreed, although in principle I dislike this kind of caste/segregation because of what it means for those looking for new guilds. Get stuck in a bad guild that struggles in normal, and there's no way you're getting into any serious heroic guild that already cleared normal the first week, so you are forced to jump from bad guild to slightly better but still bad guild, which hurts everyone - the bad guilds are little more than stepping stones for better guilds, and the higher guilds can only pick from other higher guilds because they're too focused to take someone untested/undergeared.

    Quite a bad double-edged sword IMO.
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  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Lumineus View Post
    Bosses can be hard without being ridiculously complicated, as most of the MoP encounters seem to be. Festergut was considered to be a raid check in his day, and he had what, a tank swap, a stack and spread, and a CC that had to be soaked by ranged, and that was it? Oh, and Heroic added bouncing balls that had to be juked. So at most you had to deal with three mechanics, in the hardest mode. Not to say that ICC didn't have some obnoxiously complicated encounters (Dreamwalker, Arthas) but that's where raid bosses tend to start now. Actually Immerseus is basically just a reverse Dreamwalker.

    To me, number check fights with minimal mechanics such as Festergut are but excuses of a boss. These kind of encounters are only welcome if each tier brings only one, or perhaps two variations of itself into being (and not 12/14 as in SoO; the closest examples of satisfying encounters in SoO are Klaxxi and Blackfuse)

    The thing is, NUMBER-requirement should merely complement the mechanical and organisational obstacles presented in an encounter, and not outright DEFINE the fight. The thrill of an encounter is finding new ways of gameplay, new solutions to old problems in the process of trying to master your output.

    What I am saying is that SoO fights have got the number aspect closer to defining the bosses instead of complementing them and providing a harmonious whole.


    + I also can't help repeating that usually it is manifest in the encounters if the developers had fun designing the place/encounters or not. In SoO's case it seems that they were in a hurry and merged something together in order to move as quickly as possible to the next expansion.
    Last edited by Potentio; 2013-09-18 at 06:26 PM.

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