View Poll Results: Is Siege of Orgrimmar too easy?

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  • Very undertuned

    81 9.45%
  • Easy to begin with, but gets harder

    463 54.03%
  • A comfortable difficulty all the way through.

    280 32.67%
  • Overtuned, too difficult. Needs nerfing.

    33 3.85%
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  1. #41
    My guild had a shitty time on Norushen. It turned out to be a chink in our strategy. We were originally counting on each dps to signal the next to take a portal once their big add came up top, and we were always hitting enrage at sub 5%. Then we changed it last night to every 20 seconds another dps goes down. Got the kill with 14 secs left on enrage first try using that change. Man I wish we'd have thought of it sooner, we'd be on Juggernaut easily by now as we continued the raid on 10-man (We're a 25-man guild) over the weekend and got Galakras down and almost Juggernaut if we had more time.

    On topic: Definitely fairly easy in the beginning especially on 10, less on 25, but starts to climb difficulty sooner than you'd think.

  2. #42
    at least on 10man the fights are very undertuned, you can easily pug it up to paragons.

  3. #43
    Legendary! anaxie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfròst View Post
    My guild had a shitty time on Norushen. It turned out to be a chink in our strategy. We were originally counting on each dps to signal the next to take a portal once their big add came up top, and we were always hitting enrage at sub 5%. Then we changed it last night to every 20 seconds another dps goes down. Got the kill with 14 secs left on enrage first try using that change. Man I wish we'd have thought of it sooner, we'd be on Juggernaut easily by now as we continued the raid on 10-man (We're a 25-man guild) over the weekend and got Galakras down and almost Juggernaut if we had more time.

    On topic: Definitely fairly easy in the beginning especially on 10, less on 25, but starts to climb difficulty sooner than you'd think.
    i hope you know the fight is zergable on all modes and 25 heroics. Meaning noone goes down. Just afk up top to victory.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    Can you explain more? I mean, I thought T14 was brutal (my original MoP guild broke apart on Stone Guard). ToT nearly destroyed my current guild (stuck on Horridon for ages, although I personally never found it that hard as a tank). Norushen right now seems to be pretty challenging for the average guilds.

    What would you prefer? Bosses that have maybe 1 mechanic tops? I'm genuinely curious because I've long though that raids have been overtuned for average run-of-the-mill raiders for a while, but I can't pinpoint exactly what I would change.
    I would prefer what most people preferred in the past. Something like BT or Ulduar, with entry boss with VERY FEW mechanics and SLOWLY ramp up in both quantity and damage of them.

    Second boss in BT was Supremus (VERY FEW mechanis), second boss in Ulduar Razorscale (VERY FEW mechanis), second boss in ToT? Horridon (A LOT of mechanics).

    Blizzard lost the graps of their game when they tried to cater to the hardcore population even in the content that was NOT AIMED for them in the first place.
    Thrall always was, is, and will be my true Warchief. Garrosh and Vol'jin werent/arent.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    i hope you know the fight is zergable on all modes and 25 heroics. Meaning noone goes down. Just afk up top to victory.
    Yeah and make sure your 25 man brings only 3 healers.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    I would prefer what most people preferred in the past. Something like BT or Ulduar, with entry boss with VERY FEW mechanics and SLOWLY ramp up in both quantity and damage of them.

    Second boss in BT was Supremus (VERY FEW mechanis), second boss in Ulduar Razorscale (VERY FEW mechanis), second boss in ToT? Horridon (A LOT of mechanics).

    Blizzard lost the graps of their game when they tried to cater to the hardcore population even in the content that was NOT AIMED for them in the first place.
    You can't use BT as an example. Every boss in there had only 2 abilities. It was a different era of the game.

    And if you're going to use ToT as an example, Horridon didn't have that many abilities. You're just looking at the fight wrong.
    Each door has 1 add that must be prioritized, all the others are fodder. Each add has one ability that must be avoided. Horridon had a charge and an AOE effect.

    6 abilities. Woo. Don't use a fight's length to give it some arbitrary difficulty mark. Avoid Sand for a minute, interrupt adds for a minute, avoid ice orbs for a minute, kill shamans for a minute, kill a mini-boss, kill boss. So hard.

    And for what it's worth, third boss and fourth boss in ToT had "very few mechanics" .

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    i hope you know the fight is zergable on all modes and 25 heroics. Meaning noone goes down. Just afk up top to victory.
    Not sure if serious, or trolling..

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfròst View Post
    Not sure if serious, or trolling..
    If you aren't sure, you should probably look up the guilds that zerged it completely, or by only sending 2-3 DPS down below (hint, it's every guild that killed it).

    http://www.twitch.tv/koilie/b/462928950 1:43:00
    Last edited by Shaley; 2013-09-18 at 07:06 PM.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by gypsybob View Post
    I'm sure HC mode will satisfy people for difficulty
    This first boss on HC lasted about 5 tries for my guild :P
    I can see what you see not - vision milky then eyes rot. When you turn, they will be gone - whispering their hidden song...

  9. #49
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaley View Post
    If you aren't sure, you should probably look up the guilds that zerged it completely, or by only sending 2-3 DPS down below (hint, it's every guild that killed it).

    http://www.twitch.tv/koilie/b/462928950 1:43:00
    What is the idea then, that you focus on killing the adds to reflect DPS to the boss, since without getting purified you can't do full damage to the big guy? Honestly not sure how a zerg would work on Norushen and since my guild is currently struggling on him, it sounds like something to look into.
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  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaley View Post

    You can't use BT as an example. Every boss in there had only 2 abilities. It was a different era of the game.

    And if you're going to use ToT as an example, Horridon didn't have that many abilities. You're just looking at the fight wrong.
    Each door has 1 add that must be prioritized, all the others are fodder. Each add has one ability that must be avoided. Horridon had a charge and an AOE effect.

    6 abilities. Woo. Don't use a fight's length to give it some arbitrary difficulty mark. Avoid Sand for a minute, interrupt adds for a minute, avoid ice orbs for a minute, kill shamans for a minute, kill a mini-boss, kill boss. So hard.

    And for what it's worth, third boss and fourth boss in ToT had "very few mechanics" .
    So i cant use the two raids that people liked the most in the entire WoW history? Why?

    Wrong, not every boss in BT had two abilities, ENTRY, EARLY bosses had 2 abilities. Then they ramped up. Ulduar was the same.

    Horridon has a lot of abilities. You are missing a lot of abilities (orbs, jalak, what happend when you fail to interrupt the adds in a NORMAL guild, etc).

    And yes, Black Tample and Ulduar belong to a different era, a MUCH BETTER era. That's the point. This era of overcomplicating fights just to try to make crappy content last longer is a BAD ERA.
    Thrall always was, is, and will be my true Warchief. Garrosh and Vol'jin werent/arent.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    What is the idea then, that you focus on killing the adds to reflect DPS to the boss, since without getting purified you can't do full damage to the big guy? Honestly not sure how a zerg would work on Norushen and since my guild is currently struggling on him, it sounds like something to look into.
    It's to limit the amount of "big" adds that you get through the fight. It drops a puddle that leaves behind a pulsing AoE tick until it's interacted with. On heroic, this puddle raises corruption significantly, and each pulse raises the raid's corruption level as well.

    The copying damage component works as intended, but at this point in time on heroic it's simply better to just do less raid DPS and have fewer of the large adds spawning.

  12. #52
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaley View Post
    It's to limit the amount of "big" adds that you get through the fight. It drops a puddle that leaves behind a pulsing AoE tick until it's interacted with. On heroic, this puddle raises corruption significantly, and each pulse raises the raid's corruption level as well.

    The copying damage component works as intended, but at this point in time on heroic it's simply better to just do less raid DPS and have fewer of the large adds spawning.
    Interesting. That strategy work for normal too?
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  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaley View Post
    It's to limit the amount of "big" adds that you get through the fight. It drops a puddle that leaves behind a pulsing AoE tick until it's interacted with. On heroic, this puddle raises corruption significantly, and each pulse raises the raid's corruption level as well.

    The copying damage component works as intended, but at this point in time on heroic it's simply better to just do less raid DPS and have fewer of the large adds spawning.
    But I fail to see how it would be possible to beat the enrage timer this way.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    So i cant use the two raids that people liked the most in the entire WoW history? Why?

    Wrong, not every boss in BT had two abilities, ENTRY, EARLY bosses had 2 abilities. Then they ramped up. Ulduar was the same.

    Horridon has a lot of abilities. You are missing a lot of abilities (orbs, jalak, what happend when you fail to interrupt the adds in a NORMAL guild, etc).

    And yes, Black Tample and Ulduar belong to a different era, a MUCH BETTER era. That's the point. This era of overcomplicating fights just to try to make crappy content last longer is a BAD ERA.
    I never said you couldn't use ulduar. I said you can't use Black Temple. Najentus had a spike and a bubble. Supremus had the doomfire and the volcanoes. But, you said entry level. Ok. Mother Shahraz had 3-way-teleport ability, and she had a beam ability that hit 10 people every 9 seconds.

    You can't count "cleaves" as an ability.

    And no, I didn't miss a lot of abilities. I specifically mentioned Jalak, and orbs. I specifically mentioned interrupting the adds. You're saying all these things that I "failed" to mention when they're clearly in the section you quoted.

    There is nothing overly complicated in the game right now, I'm sorry. Requiring a group to actually think about how to handle a boss isn't bad design. If you want bosses with 1-2 abilities, there are plenty of single player RPG games out there. Even Final Fantasy XIV:ARR has bosses where all you have to do is interact with a lamp to stop adds from spawning.

    If horridon is your prime example of "over complicating" boss fights, then I'm sorry, you've already lost this argument. Horridon was filled with a bunch of fodder made to take your eyes off of what you should be doing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfròst View Post
    But I fail to see how it would be possible to beat the enrage timer this way.
    That's what I thought, too, when I first heard about other guilds doing it. I'd expect Blizzard to change this at the start of the next raid week. The whole reason they removed Draw from the boss was because 1) It was overpowered, 2) It was impossible to purify everyone, and 3) they added in the health-link between the boss and the adds, so you were actually supposed to do the fight as intended.

    But, with how light the healing requirements are (can be 3 healed on 25 man Heroic), there's no reason to cause the raid more damage, and more corruption. Guilds that are killing the Amalgam are doing so at Berserk, or 1-2 seconds before Berserk.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    Interesting. That strategy work for normal too?
    Yup! But the raid DPS would have to be pretty high. It's probably not a recommended strategy for guilds that aren't in Heroic Thunderforged gear, if I had to guess. It'd be worth a shot to try it, though. You'd know pretty quick if it'd work or not for your guild.

    Tanks always have to go down, as they don't spawn adds. Also, as far as I know, healers don't spawn adds in the main realm either, so them going down isn't a problem either. It's all about sending down the minimum amount of DPS.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaley View Post
    I never said you couldn't use ulduar. I said you can't use Black Temple. Najentus had a spike and a bubble. Supremus had the doomfire and the volcanoes. But, you said entry level. Ok. Mother Shahraz had 3-way-teleport ability, and she had a beam ability that hit 10 people every 9 seconds.

    You can't count "cleaves" as an ability.

    And no, I didn't miss a lot of abilities. I specifically mentioned Jalak, and orbs. I specifically mentioned interrupting the adds. You're saying all these things that I "failed" to mention when they're clearly in the section you quoted.

    There is nothing overly complicated in the game right now, I'm sorry. Requiring a group to actually think about how to handle a boss isn't bad design. If you want bosses with 1-2 abilities, there are plenty of single player RPG games out there. Even Final Fantasy XIV:ARR has bosses where all you have to do is interact with a lamp to stop adds from spawning.

    If horridon is your prime example of "over complicating" boss fights, then I'm sorry, you've already lost this argument. Horridon was filled with a bunch of fodder made to take your eyes off of what you should be doing.

    - - - Updated - - -



    That's what I thought, too, when I first heard about other guilds doing it. I'd expect Blizzard to change this at the start of the next raid week. The whole reason they removed Draw from the boss was because 1) It was overpowered, 2) It was impossible to purify everyone, and 3) they added in the health-link between the boss and the adds, so you were actually supposed to do the fight as intended.

    But, with how light the healing requirements are (can be 3 healed on 25 man Heroic), there's no reason to cause the raid more damage, and more corruption. Guilds that are killing the Amalgam are doing so at Berserk, or 1-2 seconds before Berserk.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Yup! But the raid DPS would have to be pretty high. It's probably not a recommended strategy for guilds that aren't in Heroic Thunderforged gear, if I had to guess. It'd be worth a shot to try it, though. You'd know pretty quick if it'd work or not for your guild.

    Tanks always have to go down, as they don't spawn adds. Also, as far as I know, healers don't spawn adds in the main realm either, so them going down isn't a problem either. It's all about sending down the minimum amount of DPS.
    But what's the average ilvl of these guilds? Mine is in the 520-530 range.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfròst View Post
    But what's the average ilvl of these guilds? Mine is in the 520-530 range.
    If I had to guess, 545+

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaley View Post
    If I had to guess, 545+
    Yeah I figured as much. This wouldn't work for us.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaley View Post
    I never said you couldn't use ulduar. I said you can't use Black Temple. Najentus had a spike and a bubble. Supremus had the doomfire and the volcanoes. But, you said entry level. Ok. Mother Shahraz had 3-way-teleport ability, and she had a beam ability that hit 10 people every 9 seconds.

    You can't count "cleaves" as an ability.

    And no, I didn't miss a lot of abilities. I specifically mentioned Jalak, and orbs. I specifically mentioned interrupting the adds. You're saying all these things that I "failed" to mention when they're clearly in the section you quoted.

    There is nothing overly complicated in the game right now, I'm sorry. Requiring a group to actually think about how to handle a boss isn't bad design. If you want bosses with 1-2 abilities, there are plenty of single player RPG games out there. Even Final Fantasy XIV:ARR has bosses where all you have to do is interact with a lamp to stop adds from spawning.

    If horridon is your prime example of "over complicating" boss fights, then I'm sorry, you've already lost this argument. Horridon was filled with a bunch of fodder made to take your eyes off of what you should be doing.
    You missed Jalak when you said 6 abilities, and you are still mising the orbs dropped by dinomancers. You mentioned interrupting adds, but NOT what happens when you fail to do so (and normal guilds fail to do stuff, which is why they are NORMAL raiding guilds). Also, the adds you are ignoring cant be ignored by Normal guilds, because normal guilds have normal tanks and normal healers. You talk about this fights as if every single normal raid group plays perfectly and never fails. You are talking about this fights from a Heroic PoV, and Blizzard is designing Normal fights from a Heroic PoV too, which is why they are failing to provide good content and its why they lost almost 50% of the normal raid population in one tier.

    I can use BT all i want, with those bosses having less abilities, the raid was MUCH BETTER than ToT. That's the whole point, making fights with tons of abilities in almost every fight doesnt make a better raid, is makes a WORSE raid.

    Funny you use mother as an example, a boss that was directed to forcing you to use resistance gear which is why its so deep in the raid with so little abilities.
    Thrall always was, is, and will be my true Warchief. Garrosh and Vol'jin werent/arent.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    You missed Jalak when you said 6 abilities, and you are still mising the orbs dropped by dinomancers. You mentioned interrupting adds, but NOT what happens when you fail to do so (and normal guilds fail to do stuff, which is why they are NORMAL raiding guilds). Also, the adds you are ignoring cant be ignored by Normal guilds, because normal guilds have normal tanks and normal healers. You talk about this fights as if every single normal raid group plays perfectly and never fails. You are talking about this fights from a Heroic PoV, and Blizzard is designing Normal fights from a Heroic PoV too, which is why they are failing to provide good content and its why they lost almost 50% of the normal raid population in one tier.

    I can use BT all i want, with those bosses having less abilities, the raid was MUCH BETTER than ToT. That's the whole point, making fights with tons of abilities in almost every fight doesnt make a better raid, is makes a WORSE raid.

    Funny you use mother as an example, a boss that was directed to forcing you to use resistance gear which is why its so deep in the raid with so little abilities.
    Making the raid use resistance gear isn't a mechanic. Conversely though, I overlooked a boss in Black Temple. You say "over complicating bosses" is part of this new "bad" era, but what about Reliquary of Souls? Three separate boss fights, each drastically different than the next, and a total of 12 abilities between them.

    RoS is a 3 door Horridon fight instead of the 4 door version we got in ToT.

    I'm sure your next argument is going to be "well, RoS was the 5th boss, not the 2nd".

    I'm not naive enough to think that Horridon's place in the raid was justified. Mechanically, he was worthy of a place at the end of the raid, not the beginning. Consorts, mechanic wise, would've been better suited for the 2nd boss, not the next-to-last boss. They didn't make this mistake in SoO with Paragons being next to last, and Protectors being the 2nd boss.

    The only part I don't agree with is that Horridon was "complicated". He was "busy", not complicated. There wasn't any extra coordination needed, there wasn't a need to split groups up into designated areas to handle prisons, there isn't a need for "X goes to Y when Z happens, then back to X before A1".

    There wasn't a "we need 9 people to be exactly 20 yards away from the boss so we can Gorefiends all the adds in". He had 4 doors, each door has 1 main mechanic that needed to be handled. 1) Sand. 2) Interrupt. 3) Avoid ground effects again. 4) Interrupt again. The mini boss had a raid AOE that you had no control over, other than killing him before the AoE killed you. Horridon had two raid mechanics, Charge and Scream.
    Last edited by Shaley; 2013-09-18 at 07:53 PM.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaley View Post
    Making the raid use resistance gear isn't a mechanic. Conversely though, I overlooked a boss in Black Temple. You say "over complicating bosses" is part of this new "bad" era, but what about Reliquary of Souls? Three separate boss fights, each drastically different than the next, and a total of 12 abilities between them.

    RoS is a 3 door Horridon fight instead of the 4 door version we got in ToT.

    I'm sure your next argument is going to be "well, RoS was the 5th boss, not the 2nd"
    Yes, after 5 boss ONE has several abilities. Illidan also has a lot, Council too, Yogg Saron too, again, the bad design is making a raid with a lot of those bosses in the early stage.

    Making the raid use resistance gear is not a mechanic and its bad design too, but that's the reaso why mother has so few abilities.
    Thrall always was, is, and will be my true Warchief. Garrosh and Vol'jin werent/arent.

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