View Poll Results: Is Siege of Orgrimmar too easy?

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  • Very undertuned

    81 9.45%
  • Easy to begin with, but gets harder

    463 54.03%
  • A comfortable difficulty all the way through.

    280 32.67%
  • Overtuned, too difficult. Needs nerfing.

    33 3.85%
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  1. #61
    The Lightbringer Raugnaut's Avatar
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    According to wowprogress, only ~7% of those who have defeated the first boss has managed to down garrosh- out of those, only half have managed to down H Immersous.

    Consider that 2/13 H was the norm for most guilds after downing Lei Shen (Jin'rokh and Ji-kun) within the first week, AND that most of the world first guilds ONLY ran into thier first block at H Dark Animus (Whereas for those who progressed heroics over time, Council was the first block, which was generally 6/13, close to half the raid downed)

    The main thing with Throne was that there were several early blocks- Horridon N, Tortos N, and then Durumu N. Once you had those 3 downed, most guilds acquired 11/12 N very quickly, with Lei Shen being the next block. After Lei Shen was downed, guilds would have Jin down as early as the next reset, if not within a month. Ji-kun comes along quickly after, and then difficulty begins to slowly ramp up.

    The main thing with Throne was that difficulty with boss progression was all over the place- You had really hard early bosses, and faceroll later bosses. Blizz has actually stated that they felt the blocks in places where progression should be smooth was something they didnt like and would attempt to have much more smooth progression the next tier, which is why you have the first half being easy, and then ever increasing difficulty.

    Finally, you have to realize YOUR progression level. If you finished up T15 at, say, 6/13 H, you are a moderate heroic raider, and SoO N will be seeing the fight once and adapting to it quickly. You should be out of normals within the first month, and will be working on heroics shortly thereafter. IF you managed to get 7/14 H done in the same time as it took you to complete normals, then yes, SoO H is greatly undertuned in comparision to ToT H. However, if, within a month after completing N T16, you are at 3/14 H, then SoO is designed at the same difficulty as ToT was.

    TL;DR, World first guilds steamrolling through heroics at same pace as they steamrolled T15 is nothing new. Heroic progression guilds steamrolling through Normal T16 like they did normal T15 is nothing new. If Heroic Progression guilds steamroll through H T16 at a similar pace that they steamrolled though Normal T16, thats a failure of raid.

    If, within 2 months, the %age of raiding guilds at 5/14 H is greater then 10%, then yes, SoO is significantly easier then ToT. Atm though, <10% of guilds have even downed Garrosh, <5% of guilds have downed the first boss on heroic, and only a mere .29% have downed more then 4/14 H.
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  2. #62
    Bloodsail Admiral
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    I have to admit there are tons more mechanics in MOP than previous expansions.

  3. #63
    Pit Lord
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    It's the same level of difficulty Throne of Thunder was to be honest. Except it's probably more balanced in terms of progression. We might be a little more geared than usual at the beginning of a tier due to the cheap price of gear upgrades and thunderforged items.

    Plus I'm pretty sure the bosses are not balanced for full raids of people with legendary cloaks, which are kind of very strong.

  4. #64
    Hmm lets see, during last tiers world first race there were 5 bosses that took Method more than 2 hours to kill: Council of the Elders, Magaera, Durumu, Dark Animus and Lei Shen (not counting ra-den). This tier there are 6: Malkorok, Spoils of Pandaria, Thok and most likely Siegecrafter, Paragons of Klaxxi and Garrosh. So I think the latter half of the tier is tuned correctly. The only boss that I have a problem with in the first half of the raid is Norushen; you really shouldn't be able to zerg him without doing any of the challenges.

  5. #65
    SoO is tuned around 530-540(entry level to level required to kill last boss)

    I think the difficulty curve is better than ToT but there are still problems (12345678910 <<<<Brick wall<<<<<<11 12 13 14)

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Weightlifter View Post
    Very undertuned, but still too difficult for our guild because we have shit players in our ranks. But because those players are our raid leader's friends, they can fail as much as they want and never get shouted at. For example, he thinks if melee DPS dies because of not enough heals, it is never the healers fault, and it means that melee DPS (or their players) bad and need to be benched
    Yeah seriously, stop your passive aggressive whine posts and do something about it. You did exactly the same thing in the Galakras thread. If you aren't happy then address it with the people who can do something about it or move guilds. Posting that stuff here will get you derision rather than sympathy.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by NightZero88 View Post
    The game is 8 years old. There are dozens of other MMOs out there. Please come with unique abilities for 14 new bosses then get back to me. There simply isn't a lot of things you can do that haven't been done before.
    Sorry, but that simply isn't a good enough excuse. Just because the game is a few years old (9 years, actually) doesn't mean developers can be lazy and recylce old mechanics. Malkorok is a perfect example. The fight consists of absorb shield debuffs, already used in Tortos heroic. A soakable pool that otherwise blows up the raid, seen in Iron Juggernaut and other bosses. A powerful frontal cleave that splits damage; seen in the Majordomo fight in scorpian form. There is nothing new about the fight.

    Immerseus: Kill boss, move a little, kill adds
    Protectors: Kill boss, move a little, kill adds
    Norushen: Gara'jal the Spiritbinder 2.0
    Sha of Pride: I'll give the developers this one. I liked this fight.
    Galakras: A combination of Razorscale and Horridon.
    Iron Juggernaut: Kill boss, move a little
    Kor'Kron Shaman: Kill boss, move a LOT
    Malkorok: See above paragraph
    Spoils: An original idea ill admit. Boring, though.

    I can't comment on further bosses as im yet to see them for myself. But do you see my point? Siege is not only easy, but it's BORING. The learning curve my raid teams experiences at each new boss is significantly lower than that of other tiers. Why? Because we've seen it all before.

    NightZero; Boss mechanics interest me a lot, hence the thread. If you honestly want me to come back to you with some original ideas I gladly will, I've got a whole notebook filled with unique and inventive boss mechanics I've made up myself. It's really not hard to come up with a new idea. If I can easily fill a notepad with original mechanics then a trained team of developers shouldn't be lazy.
    Last edited by Obsolus; 2013-09-22 at 11:08 PM.

  8. #68
    difficulty is fine, the end normals are suppose to be hard the early normals are suppose to be easy.
    I find this raid really fun, so far best of the expact.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Obsolus View Post

    NightZero; Boss mechanics interest me a lot, hence the thread. If you honestly want me to come back to you with some original ideas I gladly will, I've got a whole notebook filled with unique and inventive boss mechanics I've made up myself. It's really not hard to come up with a new idea. If I can easily fill a notepad with original mechanics then a trained team of developers shouldn't be lazy.
    If your ideas made unique, innovative and fun gameplay chances are you'd be a dev by now. It's not hard to come up with ideas, it is hard to come up with good ones though. We have no proof that yours are.

  10. #70
    My guild is a normal raiding guild. We're working on the 5th boss and even then, we only raid 5-6 hours a week. For us, anyways, it's getting tougher as we progress.

  11. #71
    My guild raids 8 hours a week, and most of our raid was 545+ (want to say 4 of us were 550+), going into SoO. Based on that, I think normal is very well done. The fights were "easy" as we vastly out geared every encounter on heroic, but we did wipe if we tried to ignore mechanics (like normal bosses should do). The first bosses were noticeably easier than the later bosses, as they should be.

    Compare it to ToT, where there were some block bosses much earlier in the instance (Horridon was apparently hell for lower level guilds) and you see why some people are clearing farther into SoO than they did ToT by this time. They just have a different difficulty curve this time.

    I personally think they hit a near perfect difficulty curve for SoO (at least on normal, we didn't clear garrosh until this week do to losing two hours of raid time the first week so I haven't seen heroics yet sadly).

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by PrairieChicken View Post
    SoO is tuned around 530-540(entry level to level required to kill last boss)

    I think the difficulty curve is better than ToT but there are still problems (12345678910 <<<<Brick wall<<<<<<11 12 13 14)
    I don't really agree with you there. Thok was definitely the hardest boss yet in the instance when we downed him, but I didn't consider him requiring that much more gear than Malkorok. Some classes are a LOT better for this fight though and 25man is arguably much, much easier than 10man for this fight.

    For comparison though, our group had 15 wipes on Malkorok, 12 on Spoils and 14 on Thok. We did have a very good setup though, so we could endure the first phase for quite a while, even in our 10man group. (At ~540 average ilvl if that matters)
    Last edited by Megamisama; 2013-09-23 at 12:18 AM.
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  13. #73
    Pandaren Monk Radio's Avatar
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    I like the difficulty curve in Siege:

    (rough personal approximation based on tuning/mechanics interaction, feel free to suggest different values):



    Compare that to the tuning of normal ToT (until Horridon was nerfed into oblivion):

    (once again, rough personal approximation)



    There's a huge difference in the number of walls that a normal guild will face, Siege's progression feels more gradual while ToT's feels completely all over the place.

  14. #74
    Field Marshal Otul's Avatar
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    my guild killed 12/12 normals and 5/13 heroics last tier, and I'm sure it would have been more if we had not stuck in heroic Primordius (for people who haven't got the chance to try it, is a hardcore tank-check that requires perfect team playing). if we had focused on easier fights like Qon or Twins, now we could have higher item level to outgear SoO normals, but this isn't the case.

    we finished the first four bosses in two days, then some people left our guild and server (traitors everywhere), but we killed galakras anyway. i'm finding the first half very affordable for casual guilds, but obviously you have to do the mechanics if you want to progress.

    the fact that all bosses on Normal have certain difficulty for some people is the price we are paying to have LFR and now Flex. I remember before the "easy" raids were the 10-man. now 10 man's difficulty it's more or less similar to 25-man, and now its place has been replaced by LFR/flex. I think we shouldn't complain that the normal mode is too difficult, unless you want to convert the 10-man raids to the world boss style: bloodlust, cooldowns up, burst, gold, coin, f*ck more gold.

    the reason why I'm playing this game is to kill bosses moving my ass from one side to another, giving the 200% with my shitty items and doing it better than people with higher item lvl than me. when a boss it's at 5% I hit the keyboard harder to kill it faster, and when he dies we shout a little bit in TeamSpeak. I think this is more funny than zerging boring bosses that doesn't do anything.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Obsolus View Post
    Sorry, but that simply isn't a good enough excuse. Just because the game is a few years old (9 years, actually) doesn't mean developers can be lazy and recylce old mechanics. Malkorok is a perfect example. The fight consists of absorb shield debuffs, already used in Tortos heroic. A soakable pool that otherwise blows up the raid, seen in Iron Juggernaut and other bosses. A powerful frontal cleave that splits damage; seen in the Majordomo fight in scorpian form. There is nothing new about the fight.

    Immerseus: Kill boss, move a little, kill adds
    Protectors: Kill boss, move a little, kill adds
    Norushen: Gara'jal the Spiritbinder 2.0
    Sha of Pride: I'll give the developers this one. I liked this fight.
    Galakras: A combination of Razorscale and Horridon.
    Iron Juggernaut: Kill boss, move a little
    Kor'Kron Shaman: Kill boss, move a LOT
    Malkorok: See above paragraph
    Spoils: An original idea ill admit. Boring, though.

    I can't comment on further bosses as im yet to see them for myself. But do you see my point? Siege is not only easy, but it's BORING. The learning curve my raid teams experiences at each new boss is significantly lower than that of other tiers. Why? Because we've seen it all before.

    NightZero; Boss mechanics interest me a lot, hence the thread. If you honestly want me to come back to you with some original ideas I gladly will, I've got a whole notebook filled with unique and inventive boss mechanics I've made up myself. It's really not hard to come up with a new idea. If I can easily fill a notepad with original mechanics then a trained team of developers shouldn't be lazy.

    I'm eagerly awaiting your miraculous ideas.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    Also, ToT was SEVERELY overtuned.

    And as always, 10 man is SEVERELY overtuned.
    Horridon 10 and Magaera 10 were hard, but on the other hand Ji Kun 10, Iron Qon 10, and the two last bosses on 10 HC were a joke.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Radio View Post
    I like the difficulty curve in Siege:

    (rough personal approximation based on tuning/mechanics interaction, feel free to suggest different values):



    Compare that to the tuning of normal ToT (until Horridon was nerfed into oblivion):

    (once again, rough personal approximation)



    There's a huge difference in the number of walls that a normal guild will face, Siege's progression feels more gradual while ToT's feels completely all over the place.
    You fail to mention how hardcore or casual you play the game and on which difficulty.
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  17. #77
    Dreadlord Pisholina's Avatar
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    The guild I raid with are 7/14 (with a 6% wipe on Nazgrim). We had a wall at the Dark Shaman. It took us about 25-30 attempts to do it. I like it, it's challenging, but not too hard where you have a feeling you will never kill anything.
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  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Radio View Post
    I like the difficulty curve in Siege:

    (rough personal approximation based on tuning/mechanics interaction, feel free to suggest different values):



    Compare that to the tuning of normal ToT (until Horridon was nerfed into oblivion):

    (once again, rough personal approximation)



    There's a huge difference in the number of walls that a normal guild will face, Siege's progression feels more gradual while ToT's feels completely all over the place.
    What exactly do both axis' stand for??

  19. #79
    I'd say the start is a hell of a lot easier than ToT, but I'm also quite happy with that. Currently having some teething issues with DShaman tonight cos three melee - need to bench one I... guess /sigh @ melee hate.

    It's certainly a great moral improvement over being stuck at Horridon for weeks in ToT, as we started raiding very late in T14 and couldn't brute force him, certainly not with 3 melee.

    Got a bit of a rude shock with Noru zerk timer but was easily fixed in a few attempts with a bit of orb tweaking. Had some irritating wipes on Gala for an entire night as we mistakenly tried to 2 heal without heroic gear - switched to three heal it and one shot on the first pull... and now hit a wall at shaman with the adds + melee issues; every other boss has been extremely easy though. I much prefer the slow ramp up in difficulty for normal, over the brick wall of Horridon in ToT.

    I do still wish it was more melee friendly but eh, that's never going to happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Radio View Post
    I like the difficulty curve in Siege:

    (rough personal approximation based on tuning/mechanics interaction, feel free to suggest different values):
    I feel Noru was slightly harder than Sha purely due to the tightish zerk timer; I'd say Sha = Protectors on difficulty. I was tanking though, and the tanking on Sha is a total snoozefest.
    Last edited by Kaiarra; 2013-09-23 at 01:21 AM.

  20. #80
    Brewmaster Murderdoll's Avatar
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    It is extremely easy to begin with. Around Nazgrim/Malkorok is starts to pick up a little bit in terms of coordination/difficulty.

    But if youre a guild that cleared ToT without to much drama on normal SoO overall isnt going to offer you are huge brick wall.

    I think the gradual difficulty curve this tier is MUCH better done.

    I was a little scared at first, I remember clearing Dragon Soul first week with absolutely no drama at all and when we steam rolled the first half of SoO in the same fashion but it does pick up.

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