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  1. #1

    If you could redo the theme of one talent row, what would it be?

    I'm not talking about redoing an individual talent like RoP. And this is purely hypothetical, there is virtually 0 chance of this happening especially for WoD. But if you could redo the theme of one of our talent rows, which one would you replace and what would the new theme be? Feel free to give example talents as well if you like.

    This is just a 'for fun' thread, so while it's fair game to comment on others ideas, keep in mind this is just what people would want in their idea world not neccisarily something they're pushing for blizzard to implement. There are only two rules. 1. You have to replace an existing row, not just tweak existing talents, and 2. the theme of the new row must be different than the row you're replacing. So no replacing our movement tier with three new movement talents. I'm also making this with our WoD talents in mind, not the MoP talents.

    Personally, I would redo the 90 tier. We're going to have 3 damage tiers in WoD as it is. The 75 row buffs our single target, but also has an emphasis on cleave/aoe effects. The lvl 90 row has two talents that buff our overall damage, one as a bonus for standing in a circle the other cycling around and rewarding you for timing procs in tune with it along with a MI redone as a damage cd. And the level 100 seems to mostly focus on single target damage increasing, with various meteor effects used to make most of them less effective against multiple targets.

    To me, the level 90 row is the least interesting of the three damage tiers so I'd personally like to do the opposite of what they're doing in WoD: Strip away the damage portion and make it a mana management tier, with all three specs caring about mana instead of just arcane. And with better balancing so that arcane hopefully isn't pigeon holed into one of them for more damage.

    I'm going to leave numbers vague, as balancing those numbers even if this WAS picked up by blizz (which it never would be) would take iterating upon anyway. And I know that many people probably don't want a return of mana management to fire/frost, but remember this is just a fun 'what would you wish for' kind of thread, not serious discussion about what blizzard necessarily SHOULD do.

    Possible talents:

    1. Rune of Mana. Replaces evocation. Same cd and duration as evocation. The tradeoff is you can continue to cast while getting your mana back, the downside being if you time it or position it poorly you've wasted it, but then that's also a risk with evocation itself if you start channeling it then suddenly have to move. Instant cast and not on the gcd.

    2. Empowered Mana Gem. In addition to the initial burst of mana, the gems continue to regen mana over 12 seconds. The downside is you can't conjure the gems in combat anymore, so you get three doses per fight. May or may not replace evocation. The empowered gems would have their cooldown lowered to 30s, since you'd be limited to three per fight. For convenience, instead of having to constantly reconjure every fight it could work on a charge system but the charges don't regenerate until you leave combat, limiting to three per fight without making you facepalm if you forget to reconjure between pulls.

    3. Invocation. Removes the cooldown of evocation. This would be the easiest talent to use, not having to worry about saving charges or timing so much, but the downside would be that unlike the other two options you can't keep dpsing while regening your mana.
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  2. #2
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    While I don't want a damage tier, I don't understand why we would need a mana tier when they explicitly stated they don't want mana to mean much to DPS specs (BESIDES Arcane). All of these could be glyphs for Arcane specifically since it's the only one that cares about mana.

    I'd change the L90 tier just to replace Rune of Power with a modified version of the left talent of L100 (something to enhance our current cooldowns) that wasn't as shitty as it is currently (Overpowered and Thermal Void, specifically).

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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    While I don't want a damage tier, I don't understand why we would need a mana tier when they explicitly stated they don't want mana to mean much to DPS specs (BESIDES Arcane). All of these could be glyphs for Arcane specifically since it's the only one that cares about mana.

    I'd change the L90 tier just to replace Rune of Power with a modified version of the left talent of L100 (something to enhance our current cooldowns) that wasn't as shitty as it is currently (Overpowered and Thermal Void, specifically).
    In the current system I agree a mana tier would be meaningless, but I said in my post that I'd also want all three specs to care about mana again. Also I don't think you read the whole thread you're breaking the rules of the game. =P
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    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malzra View Post
    but I said in my post that I'd also want all three specs to care about mana again.
    Why? Mana wasn't ever fun gameplay. Running oom as a DPS means you're literally doing nothing. Running oom today as a DPS (or Healer) means you're doing something you're not supposed to (like spamming spellsteal or spamming heals as a DPS). It's not good gameplay to sit at no mana and do nothing. Non-mana users get to use plenty of skills that are free, and also have melee autoattacks which do PLENTY of their DPS. We get... Wands. Mana simply doesn't work. (I'd argue Mana Adept doesn't really work either. It just LOOKS like it works because 99% of masteries are just bland +% Damage so it looks better by comparison)

    Quote Originally Posted by Malzra View Post
    Also I don't think you read the whole thread you're breaking the rules of the game. =P
    No I didn't, and of no offense to you. I can't read a wall of text when it's a topic I don't have a huge attachment to

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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    Why? Mana wasn't ever fun gameplay. Running oom as a DPS means you're literally doing nothing. Running oom today as a DPS (or Healer) means you're doing something you're not supposed to (like spamming spellsteal or spamming heals as a DPS). It's not good gameplay to sit at no mana and do nothing. Non-mana users get to use plenty of skills that are free, and also have melee autoattacks which do PLENTY of their DPS. We get... Wands. Mana simply doesn't work. (I'd argue Mana Adept doesn't really work either. It just LOOKS like it works because 99% of masteries are just bland +% Damage so it looks better by comparison)



    No I didn't, and of no offense to you. I can't read a wall of text when it's a topic I don't have a huge attachment to
    For me mana just kind of loses the point of existing if there's no danger of running out of it. I don't think that we should inevitably run out, but should use tools like mana gems/evocation etc to keep our mana up, possibly changing rotation slightly if needed, and only run out of it if it's not managed and just ignored, or if we do something like arcane not resetting stacks. It's just my personal opinion though that it adds another layer of interest to the gameplay.

    Anyway the point of the thread is 'if you could change the ROLE of one talent tier' what you change it to? For example swapping out one of our damage tiers for a self healing tier, or our movement tier for a defensive tier, etc, and was never meant to be taken too seriously. I figured it probably wouldn't get too much interest, but hey not counting stickies we have two or three threads that haven't been posted in over a week and 4 or 5 locked threads on the front page so I figured why not.
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  6. #6
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malzra View Post
    For me mana just kind of loses the point of existing if there's no danger of running out of it. I don't think that we should inevitably run out, but should use tools like mana gems/evocation etc to keep our mana up, possibly changing rotation slightly if needed, and only run out of it if it's not managed and just ignored, or if we do something like arcane not resetting stacks. It's just my personal opinion though that it adds another layer of interest to the gameplay.
    That's sorta the point, it shouldn't exist. In a way, Destruction Warlocks are currently using pseudo-Energy with how quickly it replenishes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malzra View Post
    Anyway the point of the thread is 'if you could change the ROLE of one talent tier' what you change it to? For example swapping out one of our damage tiers for a self healing tier, or our movement tier for a defensive tier, etc, and was never meant to be taken too seriously. I figured it probably wouldn't get too much interest, but hey not counting stickies we have two or three threads that haven't been posted in over a week and 4 or 5 locked threads on the front page so I figured why not.
    Gotcha. Scrap L90 and make it an active tier like Priest L90; give us 3 unique spells that are fun to use and not irritating.

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  7. #7
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Probably the level 90 tier.
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  8. #8
    15 and 30 are fairly poor tiers, but I think it's more an issue with the talents rather than the theme.

    75 in WoD will be okay as long as the choices are balanced.

    I have to agree, the theme of the 90 tier should be changed. Mana regen is a weak theme for a tier though, seeing as only Arcane is designed to care about mana, so they can't simply remove the DPS implications and make it purely mana regen.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    Why? Mana wasn't ever fun gameplay.
    Aside from Arcane, I agree.

    Another option would be to make mana matter only for utility or AoE spells, like with some other classes - but again that won't really work because of Arcane.

    I suppose they could give Arcane its own resource...
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  9. #9
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Aside from Arcane, I agree.

    Another option would be to make mana matter only for utility or AoE spells, like with some other classes - but again that won't really work because of Arcane.

    I suppose they could give Arcane its own resource...
    They can make mana work, they just need to make managing it more active by giving us a reason to ever drop below 90%.
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    Why? Mana wasn't ever fun gameplay.
    I disagree, in wrath when a good timed or mis-timed evocation meant the difference between topping or bottoming the meters, I felt like that was both fun and skillful, also the whole thing of ending the fight with zero mana (trading mana for damage) was always appealing.

    One of the reasons I've really not liked wow since wrath was the decision to make mana not matter for dps. DPS needs some sort of resource management to stay engaged/immersed.

    I'd agree that things like replenishment were kind of meh, because it made it such that if you didn't have replenishment, you were screwed, and you needed a class that could bring it. But I miss mana management. I feel less like a mage, and more like an infinite gun in a FPS that doesn't use ammo as a resource.

  11. #11
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyromelter View Post
    I disagree, in wrath when a good timed or mis-timed evocation meant the difference between topping or bottoming the meters, I felt like that was both fun and skillful
    Yes, because having bad luck with your Evocation and being forced to move and continue on for awhile with no mana is very "fun" and "skillful".

    You're entitled to your opinions, but I don't see how missing a 2m cooldown which leads to you not casting for about 90% of it is fun.

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  12. #12
    Moderator LocNess's Avatar
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    Get rid of our CC tier. Ring of Frost and all that junk. I know PvP people might enjoy it but idc

    Make it a tier that boosts our secondaries (boring but I love stats and basic numbers):

    Quick Minded - Increases Haste by 5% overall. Channeled spells duration reduced by 1/3.

    Aimed Magic - Increases Crit by 5% overall. Crit Damage increased by 33%.

    Empowered Armours (suggested this one several times before) - Each armour gains an extra stat boost.
    Molten - Gain 5% crit and 7% Crit Damage
    Mage - Gain 15% Mastery (instead of 10%)
    Frost - Gain 15% Multistrike and 5% Haste

    Balancing could probably be tweaked but w/e. Obv no reason Fire would chose Empowered Armours over Aimed Magic.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by LocNess View Post
    Get rid of our CC tier. Ring of Frost and all that junk. I know PvP people might enjoy it but idc

    Make it a tier that boosts our secondaries (boring but I love stats and basic numbers):

    Quick Minded - Increases Haste by 5% overall. Channeled spells duration reduced by 1/3.

    Aimed Magic - Increases Crit by 5% overall. Crit Damage increased by 33%.

    Empowered Armours (suggested this one several times before) - Each armour gains an extra stat boost.
    Molten - Gain 5% crit and 7% Crit Damage
    Mage - Gain 15% Mastery (instead of 10%)
    Frost - Gain 15% Multistrike and 5% Haste

    Balancing could probably be tweaked but w/e. Obv no reason Fire would chose Empowered Armours over Aimed Magic.
    Granted the cc tier sees little use in raids, but this suggestion seems too close to the old, boring passive boost talents that they tried to move away from. IMO if a talent is passive they should at least try to give it an interesting mechanic like incanter's flow or unstable magic. While all damage talents eventually tend to boil down to 'which one gives me the most dps' this would do that and not add anything interesting to gameplay.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by LocNess View Post
    Get rid of our CC tier. Ring of Frost and all that junk. I know PvP people might enjoy it but idc

    Make it a tier that boosts our secondaries (boring but I love stats and basic numbers):

    Quick Minded - Increases Haste by 5% overall. Channeled spells duration reduced by 1/3.

    Aimed Magic - Increases Crit by 5% overall. Crit Damage increased by 33%.

    Empowered Armours (suggested this one several times before) - Each armour gains an extra stat boost.
    Molten - Gain 5% crit and 7% Crit Damage
    Mage - Gain 15% Mastery (instead of 10%)
    Frost - Gain 15% Multistrike and 5% Haste

    Balancing could probably be tweaked but w/e. Obv no reason Fire would chose Empowered Armours over Aimed Magic.
    I don't mind a CC tier, but I would prefer that the talents offered spells that vary by spec to cater to that spec's strengths/weaknesses/theme.
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  15. #15
    The 90 tier, it does nothing but increase our damage to a level equal to other DPS classes.

  16. #16
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LocNess View Post
    <snip>
    Fix a few things:

    Quick Minded is okay, but we don't really have enough channeled spells to really justify the channeled part.
    - (All Specs): Increases Haste by 10%.
    - Arcane: Arcane Blast reduces the cooldown of Arcane Power by 1s, 2s if glyphed.
    - Fire: Casting Fireball reduces the cooldown of Inferno Blast by 2s. Casting Scorch reduces the cooldown of Inferno Blast by 1s. [OR: Non-Critical Fireballs and Scorches have a (small) chance to proc Heating Up. Critical Fireballs and Scorches have a (small) chance to proc Hot Streak/Pyroblast! instead of Heating Up]
    - Frost: Frostbolt and Ice Lance reduces the cooldown of Icy Veins by 1s.

    Haste increases how fast you can cast your filler (and the GCD in Ice Lance's case), so all 3 value Haste a lot more because you get the effect more and more with more Haste.

    Aimed Magic could be fixed a bit to give Arcane and Frost an Ignite-like property on criticals. For Fire, it would just be an extra DoT.
    - (All Specs): Increases Crit chance by 5%.
    - Arcane: Critting Arcane Blast gives you 2 Arcane Charges instead of 1. In addition, upon reaching 4 stacks of Arcane Charges, your first Arcane Blast will only cost half mana. [The half mana is to not tank your mana when you accidentally hit 4 stacks. You'll need to be 100% aware of your stacks at all times when casting ABl]
    - Fireball: Critting a Fireball increases the Ignite damage from it by 50% (1.5x). Critting a Scorch increases the Ignite damage from it by 100% (2x).
    - Frost: Critting a Frostbolt, tick of Blizzard, or tick of Frozen Orb now grants double the chance to proc a Fingers of Frost or Brain Freeze [Crit + Multistrike 1 = 100% chance for BF]. Critting a Frostfire Bolt now has a 100% chance to proc a Fingers of Frost

    Crit just increases damage and can proc stuff, so to play off of that, here's some Crit stuff.

    The last talent could be called "Multicast" or "Spell Barrage", idfk I'm bad with names.
    - (All Specs): Increases your chance to Multistrike by X% (5? 10?).
    - Arcane: Multistriking any spell makes your next Arcane Blast cost 30% less mana, stacking up to 2 times. Multistriking the same spell twice will give you 2 charges.
    - Fire: If you multistrike a critical Fireball, Scorch, or Pyroblast, you gain a charge of Internal Heat, max of 2 charges. Multistriking the same critical twice will give you 2 charges. On your next Inferno Blast, you will expend your Internal Heat for additional Heating Up stacks (2 Internal Heat gives a Hot Streak, for example, and a Heating Up from Inferno Blast critting). [This is to set up a Combustion significantly easier or to get a Pyroblast when you need one]
    - Frost: Multistriking Frostbolt, Frostfire Bolt, or Frozen Orb increases the chance of proccing Fingers of Frost by 15% per Multistrike (Normal proc: 15%, Multistrike 1: 30%, Multistrike 2: 45%). [Basically, an effect similar to Brain Freeze with Multistrike]

    Multistrike, while the mechanic is not 100% new is a new secondary stat and can have plenty of fun things to go with it, so here's some Brain-Freeze like bonuses for Multistriking spells. PS: Glyphed Icy Veins + that passive = broken cooldown.

    The point of these 3 'passive' talents now not only makes the specific stat stronger and more valuable, but also give a different effect.

    Edit: Edited a few things. Completely changed the Crit and Haste tiers.
    Last edited by Polarthief; 2014-06-16 at 07:30 PM.

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  17. #17
    Moderator LocNess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    snip
    Works for me. I was tired and lazy last night, this is more refined and I approve this message.

  18. #18
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LocNess View Post
    Works for me. I was tired and lazy last night, this is more refined and I approve this message.
    Thank you :P I just figured the additional effect could play off the stat it was enhancing or something, idk.

    PS: Edited the modifications a bit.
    Last edited by Polarthief; 2014-06-16 at 07:31 PM.

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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    Yes, because having bad luck with your Evocation and being forced to move and continue on for awhile with no mana is very "fun" and "skillful".

    You're entitled to your opinions, but I don't see how missing a 2m cooldown which leads to you not casting for about 90% of it is fun.
    So, I'm not sure what your raid experience is polar. But during wrath, you had to know raid mechanics stone-cold to make sure you didn't screw up your evocation.

    Remember when players would have huge deltas in dps with the same gear, same class, same spec, but skill and raid mechanics mattered? Evocation was a large part of the skill of playing a mage back then. If you fucked up your evo because you failed at a raid mechanic by not timing your evo right, then you deserved to have your dps in the toilet. If you nailed it just right, you would top the meters.

    I also remember back in wrath, my own personal dps from attempt 1 to attempt, say, 20, would increase by 20-30% as I learned the encounter, again in large part because I would learn the rhythm and patterning of the boss, and time my evo perfectly.

    Nowadays you get what, 5, 10% extra dps from learning a boss encounter? Similar gear and specs do within 5% dps no matter what the skill level, assuming priorities are being correctly followed?

    A lot of elitist mmo-c types whine about the dumbing down of wow. I don't normally go along with that line of thinking, however, there is no real bad punishment for screwing up a mage spell anymore. The worst thing that can be screwed up is a combustion, and that is more often due to RNG than actual skill.

    Well-timing your evocation was the one way you could really show your quality as a raider back in wrath. I haven't seen anything else since that creates that separation in dps from mages. The mage I used to trounce in my wrath guild, nowadays he can have a better trinket and 2 ilevels gear above me total, and now I can't beat him. Back in wrath, I could potentially top the meters with gear below the ilevel of other players (not hugely below, but a 5 ilevel difference was not insurmountable because I could do perfect raid mechanics in my sleep).

    Perhaps if there was some skill-testing mechanic that mages had that would separate the average, from the good, from the elite, I wouldn't miss evocation. I see where you are coming from, standing still for 6 seconds doing nothing is certainly "meh." But I never minded it because I knew that 6 seconds of "meh" were what made me the elite mage that I was back then.

    Now you can just be carried or just buy run throughs and you can top meters, because there is no mechanical disadvantage built in to our dps priority rotations.

    The only current class/spec I see that has that sort of high skill/high reward quality to it is shadow priests with Mind Flay: Insanity. Not coincidentally, I've had a ton of fun messing around with shadow priests this expansion, and I see that delta between average and good and elite shadow priests.

    So, I get what you are saying about the fun factor of evo kind of sucking, but IMO, this game needs more high skill/high reward dps abilities, and the loss of mana meaning anything has definitely detracted from my own personal enjoyment of maging.

  20. #20
    Moderator LocNess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyromelter View Post
    So, I'm not sure what your raid experience is polar. But during wrath, you had to know raid mechanics stone-cold to make sure you didn't screw up your evocation.

    Remember when players would have huge deltas in dps with the same gear, same class, same spec, but skill and raid mechanics mattered? Evocation was a large part of the skill of playing a mage back then. If you fucked up your evo because you failed at a raid mechanic by not timing your evo right, then you deserved to have your dps in the toilet. If you nailed it just right, you would top the meters.
    Errr, really? Timing Evocate was easy as hell in WotLK, as was properly using Mana Gem. Encounters rarely had mechanics that you had to deal with every 10seconds or so like todays encounters do, they had probably usually around 30 seconds of grace before you had to switch targets or move or pass a disease, etc. I can't think of a single ICC fight except maybe heroic 25 Putricide that could have been chaotic enough to really screw an evocate up, or the rest of the fights were too short to matter.

    I also remember back in wrath, my own personal dps from attempt 1 to attempt, say, 20, would increase by 20-30% as I learned the encounter, again in large part because I would learn the rhythm and patterning of the boss, and time my evo perfectly.

    Nowadays you get what, 5, 10% extra dps from learning a boss encounter? Similar gear and specs do within 5% dps no matter what the skill level, assuming priorities are being correctly followed?
    Depends on the spec. I seriously also doubt you gained 20-30% dps unless you completely bullocksed the first attempt. Arcane also probably has a very large discrepancy between first attempts and later for learning fights just due to how much pre-planning the fight has. Most Mages refused to progress as Arcane earlier in the tier because it was flat out too inconsistent and difficult until all raid members had mechanics down and Arcane Mages could just chill and dps. Also having Movement DPS greatly decreases DPS discrepancy between first attempts because it is easier to make up for misjudging movement required mechanics.

    A lot of elitist mmo-c types whine about the dumbing down of wow. I don't normally go along with that line of thinking, however, there is no real bad punishment for screwing up a mage spell anymore. The worst thing that can be screwed up is a combustion, and that is more often due to RNG than actual skill.
    One of the first reasons to tell a good Mage from a bad Mage is their 90 talent uptime. If you look at every "pro" Mage, their RoP and Evo uptimes avg at least 93% or higher. If you screw those up, your DPS TANKS hard, and the effect is really noticeable. I can go from 450k on a Dark Shaman pull and wipe to about 380k because I get flustered or mismanage my RoPs. Your DPS is balanced around your 90 talents, screwing those up screws your numbers up hard.


    Well-timing your evocation was the one way you could really show your quality as a raider back in wrath. I haven't seen anything else since that creates that separation in dps from mages. The mage I used to trounce in my wrath guild, nowadays he can have a better trinket and 2 ilevels gear above me total, and now I can't beat him. Back in wrath, I could potentially top the meters with gear below the ilevel of other players (not hugely below, but a 5 ilevel difference was not insurmountable because I could do perfect raid mechanics in my sleep).
    I think you are just blaming the wrong things. I am a 581 Mage with 2 regular trinkets, and I still regularly beat other Mages that have heroic trinkets. Yes, having lower ilevel weapons and trinkets is a huge loss, but skill can still make up for a large amount of ilevels. I have a 548 Disc priest that actively beats ~560-565 Disc priests just because I know how to play the class and they don't.


    Perhaps if there was some skill-testing mechanic that mages had that would separate the average, from the good, from the elite, I wouldn't miss evocation. I see where you are coming from, standing still for 6 seconds doing nothing is certainly "meh." But I never minded it because I knew that 6 seconds of "meh" were what made me the elite mage that I was back then.

    Now you can just be carried or just buy run throughs and you can top meters, because there is no mechanical disadvantage built in to our dps priority rotations.

    The only current class/spec I see that has that sort of high skill/high reward quality to it is shadow priests with Mind Flay: Insanity. Not coincidentally, I've had a ton of fun messing around with shadow priests this expansion, and I see that delta between average and good and elite shadow priests.

    So, I get what you are saying about the fun factor of evo kind of sucking, but IMO, this game needs more high skill/high reward dps abilities, and the loss of mana meaning anything has definitely detracted from my own personal enjoyment of maging.
    Again, Evocation was not hard at all to do in WotLK raiding. Mechanics were at most every 30 seconds, if you couldn't time it properly you were a fool. Mind Flay Insanity is not hard to get the most out of. Just reset Mind flay channel a quarter of a second or less before it wears off and woo you can snapshot it. Priests also have the large range of skill mainly because they have no movement dps, so the best players know how to minimize their movement to do the most dps and don't overcompensate at all when getting out of things. Bad players spend the extra 1.5 GCD or so getting out of a puddle and lose that DPS. Arcane Mage is the exact same, and has a very high mechanical skill cap, one of the highest in the game arguably to put out good numbers in today's raiding environment. There are few other classes that will have the DPS differential from a good Arcane Mage to a bad one.

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