Page 9 of 11 FirstFirst ...
7
8
9
10
11
LastLast
  1. #161
    Herald of the Titans Ihnasir's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    2,596
    Because the game's moved away from it, and if they moved towards a more "grindy" design, they'd hemorrhage customers even more than they already are.

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by FemaleGoblinMage View Post
    The game is losing popularity anyway, why don't they return it to something like "Algalon being hard for the whole of the expansion", no nerfs at all? I know, WoW vanilla wasn't technically "hard", but why not anyway?
    If I understand the question correctly, you're asking why for example ToT gets nerfed into the ground the moment SoO is released.

    I kinda agree with that sentiment, now. Instead of nerfing ToT 20%, with Flex raids now and valor upgrades, there doesn't seem to be a need for this anymore. Let players get some flex gear, upgrade it, and ToT would be doable.

    Nerfing raids when a new tier releases was always a kludgey solution to a boneheaded problem: raids being inaccessible. Flex is a better solution. Nerfing tiers has outlived its necessity.

    There was a certain inexplicable cool factor about a boss not changing for an entire expansion. There was something cool about the Illidan we killed for the nth time for glaives well after Sunwell was the SAME Illidan we killed the very first time. It's just a kinda feeling thing.

    Again I absolutely do not want to deprive guilds of the ability to go back and finish a raid when a new tier is released. I just don't think nerfing it is the answer anymore. Flex raids (with their higher ilvl) and valor upgrades are the answer.

    EDIT- This would work out even better in the next expansion, when Flex raids for each tier is a given. Consider this scenario: Guild A is an average guild that wasn't very successful in MoP Normals. In the next expansion, they start off doing Flex each tier, then move up to try out some fights on Normal when they have Flex on farm and are geared up from that difficulty. They beat 5/12 bosses on Normal. Now the next tier comes out, and unlike MoP the previous tier does not get nerfed. Again they start on Flexible, and with some new tier Flex gear they are able to go back and beat those remaining bosses on Normal, with it still remaining a decent challenge for the guild. Nothing gets cheapened in the process.

    Basically, Flex -> Normal could in the future become a progression path for average guilds that parallels Normal -> Heroic for above average guilds. In any case it will always better if players can overcome previously unbeatable content by eventually outgearing it rather than seeing things get flat nerfs.
    Last edited by hablix; 2013-09-20 at 03:01 AM.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by KBWarriors View Post
    *sigh* I came to this thread and as expected, saw the first few people saying
    "oh, well they made Cataclysm hard and people left."

    No... Cataclysm was piss poorly designed in terms of end-game and left many players just running around Orgrimmar. Heroics weren't hard in the slightest if you knew where your Crowd Control button on your action bars or keybinds were.

    People who say they lost a bunch of people because of "OMG CATA HARD" are like the people who say "I'm never coming back to Walmart again, this customer service is awful!" They were nothing more than idle threats and there were other games coming out at the time. People got bored with Cataclysm early, it had nothing to do with "hard heroics".

    If people sincerely thought those heroics were hard, then I sincerely hope in the future Proving Grounds Gold is required to do raids/heroics so that people are proven to at least be competent with their class.
    I can't speak about other battle groups, but I can speak about mine. Heroics were great for guilds groups. However LFD groups were a different story. Part of the problem was all of the changes made to healing and tanking, a lot of people were sucking. Also part of the problem was CC which people weren't used to having to use, and very often the group you got didn't have the CC you needed. Que times were up for DPS because the healing/tanking changes had fewer people tanking/healing. DPS getting kicked after a long ass queue because they didn't have the right CC(before the first pull was even made) was not unheard of, while it wasn't exactly common it was far from rare. So let's just DPS people were a little cranky from the get go, and after spending a long ass time just getting in weren't really ready to deal with a tank or healer that didn't know what the hell they were doing.(which should have been somewhat understandable considering all the changes made) What you ended up getting was a whole lot of rage, a whole lot of swearing, and a whole lot of kicking.

    I don't think what made people quit was the difficulty per se. It was the effect it had on the community for one. The rage on my server overflowed into trade and general chat. Some people just stopped doing heroics because they didn't want to deal with all the bad attitudes common in LFD. I stopped doing them outside of guild groups. What that led to was people having nothing to do, and people left because of boredom. Things did get better as people geared up, but when ZA/ZG came out it just started all over again.

    While difficulty wasn't the direct cause, the difficulty created a lot of the problems that caused people to quit.

  4. #164
    Bloodsail Admiral Nillah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    1,102
    Because they would likely lose even more subscribers. The game has grown because of how accessible it is, taking that away wouldn't help.
    Avatar art by tumblr user kounyoukai

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Nillah View Post
    Because they would likely lose even more subscribers. The game has grown because of how accessible it is, taking that away wouldn't help.
    Lol what? They may lose some but they may gain some.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    Lol what? They may lose some but they may gain some.
    Who would they gain? There are three people that leave the game on average.

    Those that find the game too hard, so they leave (this happened a lot in Cata), those that find it overly time consuming, and leave (this is the majority of MoP), and those that are just sick of the game in general, as it's been going on ten years old (this is the majority in general). The vast majority of people don't leave the game because it's "not hard enough", since that demographic of player was rare to begin with.

    So how did WoW become popular in the first place? Two reasons.

    1) It was based on the very popular WarCraft brand, coming off the heavy success of WC3 and it's expansion, TFT.
    2) It was 500% easier to play and get into then the largest competition of the time. Ask a EverQuest player what they think about mounts, rested experience, no death penalty, no experience loss, questing focus, etc...

    In the end, nothing will bring it back to the numbers it once had. That time has sailed and not enough new blood is going to be interested in playing over the old blood that is simply tired of playing the same game for years on end. Easy, Hard, it won't matter. This does not mean WoW is "dying" but that just making content harder is not going to make people flock back in droves, in fact it will do the opposite of by driving away those that are hold on in the middle ground.

  7. #167
    Pandaren Monk
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Dallas
    Posts
    1,967
    Heroic raids are hard. If you mean 5 mans, then I'd have to say no. With the random ques I'd rather have a 10 minute faceroll run than an hour long wipe fest.

  8. #168
    Bloodsail Admiral Nillah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    1,102
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    Lol what? They may lose some but they may gain some.
    Yeah a few maybe. You underestimate how casual this game is, overall. Note how much QQ there is already about the Shaohao rep and it's been out for a week. People don't have the time/don't want to farm for that rep, they want it to be easy.
    Avatar art by tumblr user kounyoukai

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Grocalis View Post
    Who would they gain? There are three people that leave the game on average.

    Those that find the game too hard, so they leave (this happened a lot in Cata), those that find it overly time consuming, and leave (this is the majority of MoP), and those that are just sick of the game in general, as it's been going on ten years old (this is the majority in general). The vast majority of people don't leave the game because it's "not hard enough", since that demographic of player was rare to begin with.

    So how did WoW become popular in the first place? Two reasons.

    1) It was based on the very popular WarCraft brand, coming off the heavy success of WC3 and it's expansion, TFT.
    2) It was 500% easier to play and get into then the largest competition of the time. Ask a EverQuest player what they think about mounts, rested experience, no death penalty, no experience loss, questing focus, etc...

    In the end, nothing will bring it back to the numbers it once had. That time has sailed and not enough new blood is going to be interested in playing over the old blood that is simply tired of playing the same game for years on end. Easy, Hard, it won't matter. This does not mean WoW is "dying" but that just making content harder is not going to make people flock back in droves, in fact it will do the opposite of by driving away those that are hold on in the middle ground.
    You say that, but making the game easier doesn't seem to be working. You say who would they gain? How about the people now playing classic/BC servers because they dislike what Blizzard has done to the game. It would bring back the people that left once the game became a big facerolling gimmick.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nillah View Post
    Yeah a few maybe. You underestimate how casual this game is, overall. Note how much QQ there is already about the Shaohao rep and it's been out for a week. People don't have the time/don't want to farm for that rep, they want it to be easy.
    Why? You'd rather a mindless zerg than trying to actually play?
    Here lies the problem with the game.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    Why? You'd rather a mindless zerg than trying to actually play?
    Here lies the problem with the game.
    He described what would happen. You then turned it into a conversation about what he wants.

    Do you think he should change his prediction of what will happen just based on what he wants to have happen?
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    I hate these casual Fridays ruining it for real Fridays.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    Why? You'd rather a mindless zerg than trying to actually play?
    Here lies the problem with the game.
    What is so bad with having multiple choices in how you can play? If you want to "try to actually play" then you can do that. If you want "mindless zerg" you can do that. What you want is to removed one thing and add nothing.
    End SJW
    Quote Originally Posted by Lesane View Post
    I fucking hate this LGBT and gender equality shit invading video games.

  12. #172
    The Lightbringer Vellerix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Cheshire, England
    Posts
    3,462
    Quote Originally Posted by Tommo View Post
    No they made a horrible expansion and didnt scale the difficulty even remotely well.

    Dont ever use Cata as a justification for any argument, its better if we all just forget that expansion existed.
    But... we can never forget the horrors that took place.

    Remember our fallen brothers, the players that will never return because of it...

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Nillah View Post
    Because they would likely lose even more subscribers. The game has grown because of how accessible it is, taking that away wouldn't help.
    actually the game quit growing around the various tuning issues referred to in this thread started happening. causality/correlation is an issue of course, but saying the game grew once they started releasing easily puggable content isn't accurate.
    Authors I have enjoyed enough to mention here: JRR Tolkein, Poul Anderson,Jack Vance, Glen Cook, Brian Stableford, MAR Barker, Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle, John Steakley, Joe Abercrombie, Robert Silverberg, the norse sagas, CJ Cherryh, PG Wodehouse, Clark Ashton Smith, Alastair Reynolds, Cordwainer Smith, LE Modesitt, L. Sprague de Camp & Fletcher Pratt, Agatha Christie, Steven Erikson & Ian Esslemont, Stephen R Donaldon, and recently Jack L Chalker.

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Pebrocks The Warlock View Post
    What is so bad with having multiple choices in how you can play? If you want to "try to actually play" then you can do that. If you want "mindless zerg" you can do that. What you want is to removed one thing and add nothing.
    because its not one living world then but a bunch of parallel universes.

  15. #175
    Bosses in Vanilla were not "Difficult" They were "Broken".
    Quote Originally Posted by Windfury View Post
    Hmm their writing style reads as male to me.

    Now you've got me wondering.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Twoflower View Post
    raiding difficulty in wow : went from almost zero ( MC ) up trough BWL and AQ, then a big UP fro SSC and TK, and since then it's been downhill and downhill. It ended up in wotlk with karazhan as a total joke of a entry lvl raid.

    Sure, mechanics got harder again, and if you do hardmodes the later bosses in the instances are actually quite tricky. But on average ( considering lfr, flex raid and normal modes being piss easy ) raiding difficulty has been going down and down since the release of Black temple.
    wotlk + karazhan = huh??? karazhan was the entry raid for BC. maybe for you. not everyone is as badass as you. get off your high horse and go do heroics. just because the content is there doesn't mean isn't intended for everyone.

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    You say that, but making the game easier doesn't seem to be working. You say who would they gain? How about the people now playing classic/BC servers because they dislike what Blizzard has done to the game. It would bring back the people that left once the game became a big facerolling gimmick.
    That assumes...

    A) That people playing on private servers value in the millions. (They don't)
    B) That said people would be willing to quit the free bootlegged game they are playing to go back to the subscription main game. (They won't)
    C) That the reason they left in the first place had anything to do with difficulty. (It usually does not).

    As for making the game easier is "not working", depends what you consider to be working. If Blizzard made the game hard tomorrow and lost 2 million players instead of 1 million, would you call that a success? Blizzard is never going to reach the point it did during WOTLK, it's too old now. The only process they can run with now is to reduce the bleeding as much as possible, and doing that is catering to the majority of the player base, which are not in any form "hardcore".

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    That really isn't the point though. The point is that there should be, in theory, something that a player considers worth doing, and isn't immediately within reach.

    Whether Blizzard doesn't currently have *that* formula down (but arguably did at one point), or there's simply a lot of players that probably shouldn't be playing an MMO to begin with (equally likely), removing all challenging content is probably the worst solution that could be arrived at.
    I think in general terms this is a major issue with wow which has grown more and more over the last 5 years. Specifically excluding heroic raid content, virtually every single pve aspect of the game has been reduced to silly difficulty.

    By this I include voluntary or self-directed player goals, such as frostsaber mount rep (and other reputations, such as timbermaw), 5-man content which remained challenging at appropriate gear levels and also took enough coordination and effort to complete that it would structure an entire night to complete an instance for most players, extended in-game player goals such as the dungeon set 1 questline (as well as other max-level extended quest chains, scholo for example), the quest to get exalted with various cities to access other mounts, and any number of other goals players DID use to structure their time.

    basically, if I grasp current game together, the catch-all rejoinder which seems to be the only thing really beyond most players who want to try is heroic raiding, and even then there is a visceral difference on beating the big baddie on normal/nightmare and then trying on hell, versus having only one difficulty and one way to kill it, and making it something that takes work.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by taylor20k View Post
    wotlk + karazhan = huh??? karazhan was the entry raid for BC. maybe for you. not everyone is as badass as you. get off your high horse and go do heroics. just because the content is there doesn't mean isn't intended for everyone.
    why not chill, he obviously means naxxramas lvl 80.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Grocalis View Post
    That assumes...

    B) That said people would be willing to quit the free bootlegged game they are playing to go back to the subscription main game. (They won't)
    C) That the reason they left in the first place had anything to do with difficulty. (It usually does not).
    folks playing on a 1.12 server or 2.4.3 server aren't playing there cuz its free, but because of the game version. I expect most if not all would pay to play on a blizzard server with proper instance and ability scripting quite happily.
    Authors I have enjoyed enough to mention here: JRR Tolkein, Poul Anderson,Jack Vance, Glen Cook, Brian Stableford, MAR Barker, Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle, John Steakley, Joe Abercrombie, Robert Silverberg, the norse sagas, CJ Cherryh, PG Wodehouse, Clark Ashton Smith, Alastair Reynolds, Cordwainer Smith, LE Modesitt, L. Sprague de Camp & Fletcher Pratt, Agatha Christie, Steven Erikson & Ian Esslemont, Stephen R Donaldon, and recently Jack L Chalker.

  19. #179
    WoW has never been difficult, just time consuming. Pre-BC it was time consuming because it took forever to get an upgrade, and you could only down "harder" bosses if you had the gear. BC was time because of the same reason. WOTLK was less time consuming, thus appeared "easier", but Algalon only appeared harder because of the same reason as BC and pre-BC, people just didn't realize it. Once you had the gear and learned the strat Algalon just required lots of focus, but it wasn't any harder than Yogg or Mimiron.

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    To be fair, those long attunements usually weeded out many bad players
    revered keys for heroics in bc were a wonderful mechanism for making sure anyone in a heroic at least had been able to presumably complete numerous level 70 normal instances (or had run an awful lot more failed runs per faction).
    Authors I have enjoyed enough to mention here: JRR Tolkein, Poul Anderson,Jack Vance, Glen Cook, Brian Stableford, MAR Barker, Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle, John Steakley, Joe Abercrombie, Robert Silverberg, the norse sagas, CJ Cherryh, PG Wodehouse, Clark Ashton Smith, Alastair Reynolds, Cordwainer Smith, LE Modesitt, L. Sprague de Camp & Fletcher Pratt, Agatha Christie, Steven Erikson & Ian Esslemont, Stephen R Donaldon, and recently Jack L Chalker.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •