a Holy priest paradox

[Mazi]

This is probably going to greatly reduce the overall healing that it does. This also means that when refreshing, if you refresh it when it's at 2 sec then it goes back to a full 6 sec hot and will then not tick for another 3 sec meaning 5 sec without healing. So healing the same group more than once will actually be a penalty.

This is a really terrible solution to the problem they have created themselves.


Edit: nevermind, it seems as though EoL will heal no matter what every 3 seconds, even while refreshing.

[Music]

This is probably going to greatly reduce the overall healing that it does. This also means that when refreshing, if you refresh it when it's at 2 sec then it goes back to a full 6 sec hot and will then not tick for another 3 sec meaning 5 sec without healing. So healing the same group more than once will actually be a penalty.

This is a really terrible solution to the problem they have created themselves.

Pretty much this. Seems quite ridiculous to change it like this.

Sure the overall healing will technically remain the same, but a big part of my healing personally comes from EoL blanketing in certain situations, as I'm sure others does as well. I was running a full mastery build, but with this change I feel like it's going to be horribly ineffective compared to a more int-oriented build, which I switched to promptly following this announcement.

Just seems incredibly unnecessary and will just end up in more overhealing than we already have, which is ridiculous.

[Mazi]

Yeah I EoL blanket a lot, it's fun and this is just annoying. Although we can blanket to time for the 1st and 2nd tick now I guess.

Also: nevermind, it seems as though EoL will heal no matter what every 3 seconds, even while refreshing.

[Deleted]

So many other ways they could have fixed this :<

double the heal and half the duration would have been sexeh
In a 25man setting 6sec is just too long for someone to not be topped, even 3sec is a long time with the amount of smart and other passive healing going around. I'd say most of my throughput from EoL was coming from the first couple of ticks. I understand that during heavy damage the healing will remain unchanged (but like really, when does that EVER happen without blowing CDs these days?) but I could really care less if I heal someone for a few thousand after 6sec, I'll have probably healed them again myself before then :/

[nobodysbaby]

This is a terrible change for EoL. It should be changed to tick for 4s with intervall 2s+4s if they really need to make this change. Wow, this is not thought through well... Its surprising to see them even believing the 3s+6s wont affect our mastery in a very negative way.

- - - Updated - - -

So many other ways they could have fixed this :<
In a 25man setting 6sec is just too long for someone to not be topped, even 3sec is a long time with the amount of smart and other passive healing going around. I'd say most of my throughput from EoL was coming from the first couple of ticks.

Dmg has never been healed up so fast ever before, thanks to making the majority of spells smart, so thinking it would be equally valuable to get an EoL tick 3s+6s after a heal as every 1s for 6s is... I don't know what to say really:S

I feel like we could use a buff to our CoH atm.

Aren't there many other spells and hots ticking every 1s/2s? Why go for our mastery in particular? There aren't even many Holy priests around in raids anymore anyway (paradox related).

[Siri]

The duration of EoL isn't extended, it just ticks 1/3 as often for 3x as much. Theoretically it's the same amount of healing, but more time between ticks means more time for another healer to top people off.

I know how it works and I know it's going to increase the amount of overhealing it does in most cases.
My point was more that if what triggered EoL heals the target to full anyway there's now three seconds for them to take additional damage before EoL overheals. If I got depressed every time a class I play gets a minor nerf I'd be the saddest person alive.

Aren't there many other spells and hots ticking every 1s/2s? Why go for our mastery in particular? There aren't even many Holy priests around in raids anymore anyway (paradox related).

The only one I can think of that is remotely similar is wild growth but you can't have that ticking on nearly as many people at the same time. While there may not be an overwhelming amount of Holy Priests around maybe the problems are the most widespread in raids that actually do have them, in which case going after them makes sense.

[Basmothh]

The only one I can think of that is remotely similar is wild growth but you can't have that ticking on nearly as many people at the same time. While there may not be an overwhelming amount of Holy Priests around maybe the problems are the most widespread in raids that actually do have them, in which case going after them makes sense.

I don't know about this. We don't raid with a Holy Priest yet still have issues with input lag.

Besides, EoL's functionality hasn't changed for the longest time. Why would it suddenly become a major source of input lag?

[Siri]

It was just speculation, I have never had this input lag that caused them to change the way so many abilities work. With the way EoL works and the source of the input lag as it was described to me it would make sense if EoL was the biggest offender. Chances are they're not done, they just hit what they thought was the worst right now and they'll probably keep hitting things until they feel the problem no longer exists.

This is probably going to greatly reduce the overall healing that it does. This also means that when refreshing, if you refresh it when it's at 2 sec then it goes back to a full 6 sec hot and will then not tick for another 3 sec meaning 5 sec without healing. So healing the same group more than once will actually be a penalty.

Is this really how it works though? I expected that if you refreshed EoL at 0.5 seconds it would go to 6.5 seconds with the first tick at 6.

edit: tested, works like I thought it would.

[Mazi]

It was just speculation, I have never had this input lag that caused them to change the way so many abilities work. With the way EoL works and the source of the input lag as it was described to me it would make sense if EoL was the biggest offender. Chances are they're not done, they just hit what they thought was the worst right now and they'll probably keep hitting things until they feel the problem no longer exists.



Is this really how it works though? I expected that if you refreshed EoL at 0.5 seconds it would go to 6.5 seconds with the first tick at 6.

edit: tested, works like I thought it would.

If you read my whole post you'd see that I updated that it doesn't work like that and it just keeps healing every 3 seconds. It was speculation :P

[Siri]

...I thought I did, derp.
Oh well, now people who didn't go back to read edits will know too.

[Bridgetjones]

I don't understand how EoL is causing input lag. Is it just for the priests? Is it because they need to turn off some of their combat text or feed the hamster? I don't get it.

[Mazi]

I don't understand how EoL is causing input lag. Is it just for the priests? Is it because they need to turn off some of their combat text or feed the hamster? I don't get it.

The mass amounts of heals going out every second is overloading the server, basically, because of all of the calculations being done simultaneously. They are trying to bandaid fix it but I don't think this single change is going to help much. The item squish in 6.0 will definitely help but the nature of smart heals and hots on everyone is lagging stuff (as well as it's not very fun to play, imo).

[Kalmah]

The item squish doesn't have anything to do with it. Please educate yourself on how computers work before spouting off this garbage. The numbers involved in raid healing aren't anywhere near close to being able to cause any performance issue whatsoever.

The blue post even states that the fix is about reducing the number of combat log events. Same with the change to make ground AOE smart heals instead of just blanket healing the raid.

[Mazi]

The item squish doesn't have anything to do with it. Please educate yourself on how computers work before spouting off this garbage. The numbers involved in raid healing aren't anywhere near close to being able to cause any performance issue whatsoever.

The blue post even states that the fix is about reducing the number of combat log events. Same with the change to make ground AOE smart heals instead of just blanket healing the raid.

There's no need to be so rude. I was repeating what someone told me. Also, how do I know you're right? I don't.

[Deleted]

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=9833&e=9893
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...=10015&e=10078

These are the logs for the P2 portion of your kills. Your Holy Priest was actually using DHymn at the start of the phase before Shock Pulses come out.

Anyway, DHymn is undoubtedly nice for P2, but I would sooner take Disc's ability to constantly spot PW:S for the entirety of P2. Deaths aren't congregated, which dilutes the effectiveness of DHymn. Also, after looking at your logs, it looks like the majority of P2 deaths could have been avoided with a PW:S. Finally, Atonement/Penance offers more focused spot healing right after each Shock Pulse. These are all factors brought by Disc that go beyond numbers alone, and actually contribute towards the survivability of your raid.

The situation is completely different on Galakras though. Your logs show misplays by your fellow raiders that cause them to take fatal damage within 1 second. There's no way to triage that outside of ensuring that you have PW:S on everyone constantly, or reacting to that kind of damage with <1s. And hey, if you have such amazing reaction times, then kudos to you.

Reactions? Why would I need fast reactions. I know who can die and can take measures to pre-shield them. Someone getting nuked by the dragons is also easy to see. When you are learning the fight mistakes like these happen a lot. Disc lets people live through them in this fight, that is why its better than holy, even though HPS wise there isn't much difference. Exactly the opposite from Narushen.

The logs you linked show divine hymn being used right after the first shock pulse. The monk pops his instant heal then the holy priest hymns.

This is what I was doing while the two ppl died in p2

[01:54:11.448] Shaarra Power Word: Solace Schnuffell +*0* (O: 0, O: 4217)
[01:54:11.448] Figzo gains Power Word: Shield from Shaarra (Remaining: 235820)
[01:54:11.604] Shaarra Power Word: Solace Iron Juggernaut *4102*
[01:54:11.852] Shaarra's Power Word: Shield fades from Figzo (Remaining: 0)
[01:54:11.852] Shaarra's Twist of Fate is refreshed by Shaarra
[01:54:12.242] Schnuffell gains Divine Aegis from Shaarra (Remaining: 6749)
[01:54:12.242] Figzo afflicted by Weakened Soul from Shaarra
[01:54:12.242] Shaarra Power Word: Solace Dantína +*4217* (O: 0)
[01:54:12.305] Shaarra's Power Word: Shield fades from Shaarra (Remaining: 0)
[01:54:12.556] Shaarra Power Word: Solace Iron Juggernaut *4103*
[01:54:12.668] Shaarra's Twist of Fate is refreshed by Shaarra
[01:54:12.725] Shaarra's Twist of Fate is refreshed by Shaarra
[01:54:12.725] Shaarra's Divine Aegis fades from Schnuffell (Remaining: 0)
[01:54:13.066] Shaarra Power Word: Solace Absentiz +*4218* (O: 0)
[01:54:13.398] Shaarra Power Word: Solace Iron Juggernaut 2051
[01:54:13.507] Shaarra's Twist of Fate is refreshed by Shaarra
[01:54:13.882] Absentiz gains Divine Aegis from Shaarra (Remaining: 6750)
[01:54:13.927] Shaarra's Divine Aegis fades from Absentiz (Remaining: 0)
[01:54:14.012] Shaarra gains Inner Focus from Shaarra
[01:54:14.012] Shaarra gains Inner Focus from Shaarra
[01:54:14.012] Shaarra casts Inner Focus
[01:54:14.334] Shaarra Power Word: Solace Iron Juggernaut 2051
[01:54:14.678] Shaarra's Twist of Fate is refreshed by Shaarra
[01:54:15.159] Shaarra Power Word: Solace Iron Juggernaut *4103*
[01:54:15.159] Shaarra's Power Word: Solace fades from Iron Juggernaut
[01:54:15.261] Shaarra begins to cast Prayer of Healing
[01:54:15.497] Shaarra's Twist of Fate is refreshed by Shaarra

I spammed some PWS then cast solace and IF-PoH. In that time Dantina, got healed for 4k (yeay) by my solace DoT then died with an overkill of 12k. While I cast casting inner focus PoH a mage died with 23k overkill. He received rejuve from one of our druids, renewing mists ticks, EoL from the holy priest and surprise surprise not a single point of healing from me. I was spamming PWS like crazy that phase trying to save people from dying. So much that I run oom and my healing suffered. If I was holy and had the same amount of EoL on the raid as the other priest, both the people who died woulda been alive. With disc the entire raid is low and I can only PWS 3-4 ppl per shock pulse max.

Going disc in this fight cost my guild 40 minutes of wipes. We would have two-shot it.

Are you *sure* about that, though? I don't see holy having any utility/ability that a well geared resto druid can't rival - especially with their new burst-shrooms and genesis. The new 2 set actually gives substantial spot-healing potential with lots of instant, free healing touches, and being able to keep rejuv/WG (with 4 set's initial healing on WG) should easily compete with POH/renew. The only thing priests has going for them where I wouldn't think druids are stronger is the lvl 90 talents, and they are far weaker in 10 man compared to 25 man, due to the target cap thing.
Basicly, if you managed it as a holy priest, I wouldn't be the slightest surprised if druids can, too.

You will find that raw throughput for druids is a bit lower than for holy priests at high gear levels, so if its at the very limit of feasibility for a holy priest, it may be not quite feasible for a druid. It all depends on how close to the limit it is. The difference is small, so later on druids will have no problem solo healing it.

[Basmothh]

Reactions? Why would I need fast reactions. I know who can die and can take measures to pre-shield them. Someone getting nuked by the dragons is also easy to see. When you are learning the fight mistakes like these happen a lot. Disc lets people live through them in this fight, that is why its better than holy, even though HPS wise there isn't much difference. Exactly the opposite from Narushen.

The logs you linked show divine hymn being used right after the first shock pulse. The monk pops his instant heal then the holy priest hymns.

This is what I was doing while the two ppl died in p2

[01:54:11.448] Shaarra Power Word: Solace Schnuffell +*0* (O: 0, O: 4217)
[01:54:11.448] Figzo gains Power Word: Shield from Shaarra (Remaining: 235820)
[01:54:11.604] Shaarra Power Word: Solace Iron Juggernaut *4102*
[01:54:11.852] Shaarra's Power Word: Shield fades from Figzo (Remaining: 0)
[01:54:11.852] Shaarra's Twist of Fate is refreshed by Shaarra
[01:54:12.242] Schnuffell gains Divine Aegis from Shaarra (Remaining: 6749)
[01:54:12.242] Figzo afflicted by Weakened Soul from Shaarra
[01:54:12.242] Shaarra Power Word: Solace Dantína +*4217* (O: 0)
[01:54:12.305] Shaarra's Power Word: Shield fades from Shaarra (Remaining: 0)
[01:54:12.556] Shaarra Power Word: Solace Iron Juggernaut *4103*
[01:54:12.668] Shaarra's Twist of Fate is refreshed by Shaarra
[01:54:12.725] Shaarra's Twist of Fate is refreshed by Shaarra
[01:54:12.725] Shaarra's Divine Aegis fades from Schnuffell (Remaining: 0)
[01:54:13.066] Shaarra Power Word: Solace Absentiz +*4218* (O: 0)
[01:54:13.398] Shaarra Power Word: Solace Iron Juggernaut 2051
[01:54:13.507] Shaarra's Twist of Fate is refreshed by Shaarra
[01:54:13.882] Absentiz gains Divine Aegis from Shaarra (Remaining: 6750)
[01:54:13.927] Shaarra's Divine Aegis fades from Absentiz (Remaining: 0)
[01:54:14.012] Shaarra gains Inner Focus from Shaarra
[01:54:14.012] Shaarra gains Inner Focus from Shaarra
[01:54:14.012] Shaarra casts Inner Focus
[01:54:14.334] Shaarra Power Word: Solace Iron Juggernaut 2051
[01:54:14.678] Shaarra's Twist of Fate is refreshed by Shaarra
[01:54:15.159] Shaarra Power Word: Solace Iron Juggernaut *4103*
[01:54:15.159] Shaarra's Power Word: Solace fades from Iron Juggernaut
[01:54:15.261] Shaarra begins to cast Prayer of Healing
[01:54:15.497] Shaarra's Twist of Fate is refreshed by Shaarra

I spammed some PWS then cast solace and IF-PoH. In that time Dantina, got healed for 4k (yeay) by my solace DoT then died with an overkill of 12k. While I cast casting inner focus PoH a mage died with 23k overkill. He received rejuve from one of our druids, renewing mists ticks, EoL from the holy priest and surprise surprise not a single point of healing from me. I was spamming PWS like crazy that phase trying to save people from dying. So much that I run oom and my healing suffered. If I was holy and had the same amount of EoL on the raid as the other priest, both the people who died woulda been alive. With disc the entire raid is low and I can only PWS 3-4 ppl per shock pulse max.

Going disc in this fight cost my guild 40 minutes of wipes. We would have two-shot it.



You will find that raw throughput for druids is a bit lower than for holy priests at high gear levels, so if its at the very limit of feasibility for a holy priest, it may be not quite feasible for a druid. It all depends on how close to the limit it is. The difference is small, so later on druids will have no problem solo healing it.

You know fully well that all the other deaths could have been prevented with a PW:S on them. I specifically went through the death logs for your other raiders, and none of them received a PW:S within 15s of their deaths. Disc's focused shielding via PW:S and spot healing via Atonement works better at saving lives during P2, especially since the deaths never occur in clumps, but are spread out throughout the entire phase. 25 mans don't have a shortage of raid CDs, and as you've said, numbers aren't the end all and be all.

[Deleted]

You know fully well that all the other deaths could have been prevented with a PW:S on them. I specifically went through the death logs for your other raiders, and none of them received a PW:S within 15s of their deaths. Disc's focused shielding via PW:S and spot healing via Atonement works better at saving lives during P2, especially since the deaths never occur in clumps, but are spread out throughout the entire phase. 25 mans don't have a shortage of raid CDs, and as you've said, numbers aren't the end all and be all.

There are 25 people in the raid I can cast 3-4 PWS per shockwave. If there is no one-shot then healing can prevent deaths in exactly the same way as PWS. Thus when you say all deaths could have been prevented by PWS, then the answer is yes, but any kind of healing would have done the same thing. The question is coverage. You can't cover 25 people with PWS. You can't cover 25 people with aegis. Those who get neither PWS nor aegis will die. Take any death and you will see that I am always casting something. Either penance or PWS or IF-PoH, or channeling spirit shell, when someone dies.

Deaths did occur in clumps

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=8851&e=8862

2 deaths within 1s. During that time I am casting halo, PWS and spirit shell. Those players both received PoM and Echo of light heals, but no healing from me. You can see I am producing a spike in healing in this period.

From the same try three more deaths in a 15s interval

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=8870&e=8886

Elooss receved a 200k Halo hit from me 9s before she died. It overhealed by 140k, but produced no aegis. She received no other heal from me. If she received aegis she would have survived. She did receive smart heals from the holy priest.

Sophe received a PWS from me for 173k about 3s before he died. He still had 100k left on it when he got hit by shock pulse and died. During this period I cast PWS, PoM, Solace and angelic feather. Magistrix and Absentiz both died ~2s after Sophe. They received no healing from me except for one solace tick and 4k worth of aegis, left over from an earlier hit. They received heals from off-spec healing tide.

The pattern repeats itself. Targets which die are overwhelmingly targets who received no coverage from me. Everytime you can see heals from the holy priest though, who automatically has a much higher coverage of the raid. The overkills are also typically quite small and the lethal damage is spread over 5-10s.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=8357&e=8543

The majority of the deaths all occur within a 10s period. I am preducing 250k HPS over that phase. With halo, PWS, spirit shell and penance/solace. We lost two healers though and they both received no healing from me. At the critical time of their death. Then lack of healers pretty much wiped us on the next shockpulse.

It is pretty much the same. Deaths that occur when we are not wiping are from ppl who I was not able to cover and even some people who got a PWS from me still died.

[Deleted]

After having a glance at your guild's logs, I'm quite sure your fellow healers are all sick and tired looking at your corpse or white valkyr after you dont move from orbs/slams/whateverthereistomovefrom so this "omg i'm so good they all suck" is quite out of place here. On the other hand, well done to your druids since they in vast majority of pulls are able to comprehend simple basic encounter mechanics such as breaths - and therefore staying alive for far longer.