Stop me when I sound sexist...

[Rhaide]

Buffy: Strong female lead character, 80% of viewers were male. Rarely put into sexual situations and handled very maturely when the show did go there. Your move, OP.

Good example. I personally didn't love the show but I know MANY friends male and female who were obsessed with it. I don't know that I would go so high as to say 80%, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was near there. As for the reason for it's popularity, while buffy wasn't overly sexualized, she was still an attractive female lead in a series made by men dealing with themes that interested men. The themes they dealt with were very rarely focused on gender at all (which is refreshing by the way), and to be fair, the series was made by Joss Whedon, and anything that guy touches is amazing.

If that's a common truth and not an outlier though, why did similar shows like 'charmed' and 'angel' (despite a male lead and being a spinoff of buffy) not garner a majority male viewership?

[Paladin885]

Is this wrong? Did I say something horribly sexist?

No, OP, you're not wrong. In fact, you might quite possibly be the second person on here (other than myself) capable of having an unbiased view and are able to see beyond one's personal view point and see the bigger picture, even when doing so causes a backlash from one/both parties.

A year ago or so, here on mmochamp forums, I took a position that was unbiased from any standpoint because I felt that peer pressure would hinder a person's ability to make the correct judgement call. I was verbally attacked by a guy who eventually started a rant of "you don't know me! I'm a marine!!" or something close to that. (tbh, how could I know who he was or that he was in the military based on his forum name, sig, and avatar? O_o). The whole discussion was about a guy who was caught in the middle of a conflict with his friends who were hacking in wow and whether he should report them or not (he was emotionally torn between his morals and his friendship).

[Deleted]

I'm astonished that you are even thinking about this issue. I mean... come on... who cares? (I just couldn't resist and I do think it, to some point). Maybe it's time for you to avoid websites or posts with crazy-talk? I find it helps to keep me sane.

What's a male-focussed movie? I've never actually thought about that stuff. Video games or movies - I personally have no trouble identifying with a male protagonist. There are a bunch of games where you can choose the gender of your character without actual gameplay repercussions. If there are any, they're usually minor storylines, like romantic sideplots that aren't important.

I don't play that many computer games (WOW takes up too much time). It's funny to realize that I play mostly female characters on WOW (I have one single male Bloodelf alt, out of ... maybe 10 toons on several servers (all 70-90... I'm not big on alts at all, but sometimes even I start a new character for a profession or raid necessity... remember the days of limited attempts...)
On SWTOR all my characters were female. In KOTOR, I played female Revan, in KOTOR 2 female exile. But in other games, like Vampire - Bloodlines, I chose a male character. I don't know why, I've never thought about it before. I just play what I feel like playing.

Some games only provide one character and that's fine. It's not like I have to play it, if I don't want to. It's never been a problem, though. I've never actually bothered to think about it.

Who is the real victim of male dominance in video games? Think about it, women are often in need of aid or seen as a prize or commodity; this is upsetting and obviously a bit rude... but on a deep level, who does it cause real problems for?

I've never thought about this... and I doubt that it's actually the cause....

but one thing that annoys me is when guys IRL treat me like I'm a very special snowflake. I'm not. I know I'm not. There are billions of people on this earth, I'm nothing special. I don't even mean that in a negative way, realistically speaking we are all irrelevant. Chances are we're not personally going to develop the cure for cancer. So, yeah, being treated like I'm so very special or in need of aid annoys me. Or when guys are "worried" about me over trivial stuff. Do you "worry" about your other friends when they don't call for a day or stay out late? I don't think so.

I don't like it when I feel that people do me favours that I didn't ask for and that they wouldn't do for other friends, because it makes me feel like I owe them. It's a bit like an arms race when I start responding to even the scales... that gets expensive real fast.

Hmmm... I guess it causes problems for me, because it's annoying. It's funny when guys put you on a pedestal (even moderately - I have my flaws and people notice but still do this to some extent), because I'm not like that at all. I'm not even all that nice. I'm usually polite, that's all. I just don't get it, though I'm too nice to take advantage of it, or at least I definitely can't be bothered to pretend in order to take advantage of some poor schmuck. Some of the compliments grate, because all they mean is that the person doesn't know me at all or just chooses not to see. Not the biggest compliment you can get.

I still haven't figured out if guys just say these things because they think that it's gonna get them results or because they're too blind to see the truth. I'm not sure which is worse. I doubt that video games are at fault, but I could be wrong.

You did make a certain point there.

[Itisamuh]

Overly progressive is a good way to describe this society. People are butt hurt about anything these days, just say what you think and ignore them.

[Wells]

Overly progressive is a good way to describe this society. People are butt hurt about anything these days, just say what you think and ignore them.

How is overly sensitive a progressive thing?

[Rhaide]

How is overly sensitive a progressive thing?

Many people (I won't give personal opinions here because that's not what I want this thread to be about) think some progressive people (not all) are overly sensitive about certain topics because in an effort to gain tolerance for groups previously considered deviant they go overboard and get offended by things not meant to cause offense.

Please don't turn the thread political though, I hope this explains that viewpoint, not taking one side or the other, if the conversation goes on, please keep it about games not politics.

[Underverse]

Overly progressive is a good way to describe this society. People are butt hurt about anything these days, just say what you think and ignore them.

I consider myself a radical progressive. However, you're using progressive as a synonym of stupid. I would rather you not. There are indeed many people who have both progressive ideals and stupid ones, but that does not make progression stupid.

[Themius]

It's funny to see a forum with a bunch of people saying how the world thinks men are expendable... especially since women say the same thing... you're all bitching about the same thing... it's like kkk and the current black pantheres...(though kk k and bp comparison relies more on conspiracy theories they both say are against them)

[bayushisan]

popular gaming sites take obviously anti-male stances

OK. Help me out here. What sites are taking an anti-male stance? You can't just make that statement without providing some links to prove your case.

[Rhaide]

Well I wrote a long post in response to RolltheHard6's post but I went to delete a followup post I made and accidentally deleted them both, I'm sorry.

The meat of the post was saying that I found your experiences interesting and I'm sorry you've been treated differently, I generally don't ask for the gender of my online friends, it shouldn't matter in the games we play.

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popular gaming sites take obviously anti-male stances

OK. Help me out here. What sites are taking an anti-male stance? You can't just make that statement without providing some links to prove your case.

IGN, notably in their podcast "Podcast Beyond" regularly discusses how women aren't treated fairly in games without giving any reasonable opposition any airtime, often being outright hostile.

TGS (now polaris), again, especially one of their podcasts called the co-optional podcast including big name Totalbiscuit take hardline anti-common male viewpoints. Notably however, their female caster, Dodger often raises fair and incredibly interesting points on the issue which are less hardline than the male casters.

I could go on with examples of slightly smaller, but still big name sites like gamespot and cracked (despite not being pure game site), for a while, but those two should be enough.

As for specific links, obviously it would be difficult to go through the thousands of hours of podcasts to find the exact bits I'm speaking out as the topic doesn't come up that often, if you take that as an admission that I have no proof, I'm sorry. I'm just not willing to spend weeks looking.

EDIT: if you're interested for yourself though, find the recent episode of the co-optional podcast involving the controversial art style of dragon's crown

[Cannibalus]

As human beings it's in our nature to make things easier and that's how stereotypes form in our mind.

The actual problem is that when u treat a person like a stereotype they become that stereotype and the vicious circle keeps doing it's cycle generation after generation.

It will always be "me" or "us" vs. "them", it's in our nature to like/favour or dislike certain stereotypes because that's how life has hit us up to this point and molded our mind be it education, self-education or just raw life experiences.

[Themius]

Well I wrote a long post in response to RolltheHard6's post but I went to delete a followup post I made and accidentally deleted them both, I'm sorry.

The meat of the post was saying that I found your experiences interesting and I'm sorry you've been treated differently, I generally don't ask for the gender of my online friends, it shouldn't matter in the games we play.

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IGN, notably in their podcast "Podcast Beyond" regularly discusses how women aren't treated fairly in games without giving any reasonable opposition any airtime, often being outright hostile.

TGS (now polaris), again, especially one of their podcasts called the co-optional podcast including big name Totalbiscuit take hardline anti-common male viewpoints. Notably however, their female caster, Dodger often raises fair and incredibly interesting points on the issue which are less hardline than the male casters.

I could go on with examples of slightly smaller, but still big name sites like gamespot and cracked (despite not being pure game site), for a while, but those two should be enough.

As for specific links, obviously it would be difficult to go through the thousands of hours of podcasts to find the exact bits I'm speaking out as the topic doesn't come up that often, if you take that as an admission that I have no proof, I'm sorry. I'm just not willing to spend weeks looking.

EDIT: if you're interested for yourself though, find the recent episode of the co-optional podcast involving the controversial art style of dragon's crown

Women aren't treated fairly in the very large male gamer population... why does that need a rebuttle?

Hell when a women (Anita) came out about this issue a while ago she was attacked by tons of gamers who harrassed her said they'd rape her, got her address posted it online and just a ton of crazy shit.

When Anita Sarkeesian announced plans to do a video series exploring the portrayal of women in video games, she became the victim of a massive online attack choreographed by members of the gaming community who cast her as the "villain" in their online "game" to ruin her life. It did not go well for them. But for Anita, things ended up going very well indeed.

Oh no a woman wants to do a seires about women's portrayal in games! Let's show her just how stereotypical we are and attack her!

[Rhaide]

As human beings it's in our nature to make things easier and that's how stereotypes form in our mind.

The actual problem is that when u treat a person like a stereotype they become that stereotype and the vicious circle keeps doing it's cycle generation after generation.

It will always be "me" or "us" vs. "them", it's in our nature to like/favour or dislike certain stereotypes because that's how life has hit us up to this point and molded our mind be it education, self-education or just raw life experiences.

You are correct, in psychology we call those primitive stereotypes 'schemas', and they occur in our minds as a defensive mechanism. We take what we know and form simple explanations that we apply to every member of a set or group. Sometimes these can be helpful, "the man in front of me has dwarfism and most people with physical conditions are sensitive about it, don't mention it", sometimes they can be harmful "the man in front of me is wearing baggy jeans and a flat brim baseball cap, he might be dangerous"

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Women aren't treated fairly in the very large male gamer population... why does that need a rebuttle?

The bit of conversation wasn't about how women are treated BY men in the gamer population, I think most people agree they are treated horribly and most guys are disgusting on the internet. What I'm talking about is essentially the same discussion going on in this thread. They comment on how women aren't fairly represented as main characters in games and are drastically underrepresented, and they discuss this without allowing any contrary viewpoint regardless of civility and reasonable logic (such as many of the logical marketing and demand arguments raised in this thread).

If it was simply about how guys treat women online, yeah, I could understand that not needing a rebuttal, it's horrible.

[Themius]

You are correct, in psychology we call those primitive stereotypes 'schemas', and they occur in our minds as a defensive mechanism. We take what we know and form simple explanations that we apply to every member of a set or group. Sometimes these can be helpful, "the man in front of me has dwarfism and most people with physical conditions are sensitive about it, don't mention it", sometimes they can be harmful "the man in front of me is wearing baggy jeans and a flat brim baseball cap, he might be dangerous"

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The bit of conversation wasn't about how women are treated BY men in the gamer population, I think most people agree they are treated horribly and most guys are disgusting on the internet. What I'm talking about is essentially the same discussion going on in this thread. They comment on how women aren't fairly represented as main characters in games and are drastically underrepresented, and they discuss this without allowing any contrary viewpoint regardless of civility and reasonable logic (such as many of the logical marketing and demand arguments raised in this thread).

If it was simply about how guys treat women online, yeah, I could understand that not needing a rebuttal, it's horrible.

Well in games the characters tend to be... male fan service, only exception I can think of is female Shepherd in mass effect and a lot of people enjoyed that, and women are underrepresented in plenty of gaming that doesn't allow you a choice of sex (and plenty don't).

[Rhaide]

Women aren't treated fairly in the very large male gamer population... why does that need a rebuttle?

Hell when a women (Anita) came out about this issue a while ago she was attacked by tons of gamers who harrassed her said they'd rape her, got her address posted it online and just a ton of crazy shit.



Oh no a woman wants to do a seires about women's portrayal in games! Let's show her just how stereotypical we are and attack her!

It wasn't a ton of gamers, it was a large amount of mentally imbalanced individuals with a serious problem. What they did was horrible; I'm not sure what that has to do with this thread.

EDIT: Oh, I see, the comment was an extrapolation of the misunderstanding about what I said. My mistake, I'm sorry, just ignore this then.

[Powerogue]

..or racist, or hateful in any way.

Lately I've become very disillusioned with the world for one reason. There is a growing, very vocal, group of people that will shout you down and belittle you for disagreeing with their definition of morality.

Well first off you need to acknowledge every human being on the planet has a degree of this. It's why we tend to stick around with people who parrot opinions that agree with ours back at us.

You're not sexist by any means. Targeting a certain demographic is business. By the sound of it, those people are just whining because a popular movie isn't pandering to their demographic. They should like the movie or dislike the movie, rather than think the movie makers have some vendetta against them.

[Rhaide]

Well in games the characters tend to be... male fan service, only exception I can think of is female Shepherd in mass effect and a lot of people enjoyed that, and women are underrepresented in plenty of gaming that doesn't allow you a choice of sex (and plenty don't).

I agree, most characters are for men, because they are marketing mainly to men since it is the pc/console, full price game's main demographic. It's not a moral issue, it's a economic one.

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Well first off you need to acknowledge every human being on the planet has a degree of this. It's why we tend to stick around with people who parrot opinions that agree with ours back at us.

You're not sexist by any means. Targeting a certain demographic is business.

I may have phrased my point poorly, I meant that the growing group is becoming too massive to ignore. But you're right, everyone is guilty of it to a larger or lesser degree.

[Themius]

I agree, most characters are for men, because they are marketing mainly to men since it is the pc/console, full price game's main demographic. It's not a moral issue, it's a economic one.

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I may have phrased my point poorly, I meant that the growing group is becoming too massive to ignore. But you're right, everyone is guilty of it to a larger or lesser degree.

Targeting games completely to men is foolish as women play those games as well. It's like targeting only straight men which really didn't start to change till about a decade ago.

[bayushisan]

Rhaide I'm a tad confused here. What does anti-common male mean anyway? It kind of sounds like a loaded code word.

[Themius]

Rhaide I'm a tad confused here. What does anti-common male mean anyway? It kind of sounds like a loaded code word.

Anti white straight male is the only thing I can think of. At least that's what's viewed of as the default of other people by... many people.