1. #1
    Warchief Cyrops's Avatar
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    Secondary stats, so confusing...

    Hello Hunters,

    So I was under the impression that it was crit>haste>mastery for survival in general.
    Yesterday I got http://www.wowhead.com/item=104909 Immerseus neck, it has mastery and haste on it.
    Naturally I was thinking to reforge mastery into crit. Then I went on FemaleDwarf, and tried to do a few tests. To my HUGE surprise reforging Haste into Crit on the neck was giving me a nice boost, as opposed to reforging mastery into crit. I tried messing around with reforge, cause I thought maybe mastery was better than haste, but I ended up losing DPS all over the place >.>
    So now I am totally confused, why is mastery>haste for this item alone?
    For example, I have hit on boots reforged into haste, if I change that reforge to mastery I end up losing DPS.
    Maybe someone here has any idea why this is happening?

    Good hunting.

  2. #2
    Secondary stats shift in relative value as their overall value changes.

  3. #3
    So far this tier simcraft has given me some very strange scale factors. Sometimes for BM I've even had Mastery come out on top (on a patchwerk style fight with 1 target). Checking the weights and then reforging for them alters the statweights almost every time.

  4. #4
    Warchief Cyrops's Avatar
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    What the hell, I just wanted to try something, so I go on FD and all I do was put extra +1000 haste, and I lose 3k DPS.
    Is the sim broken or something?
    I have to add 3000 haste to achieve similar dps as without adding any extra stats ...
    My mind is slowly melting >.>
    Last edited by Cyrops; 2013-10-16 at 07:39 AM.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrops View Post
    What the hell, I just wanted to try something, so I go on FD and all I do was put extra +1000 haste, and I lose 3k DPS.
    Is the sim broken or something?
    I have to add 3000 haste to achievement the same dps as without it ...
    My mind is slowly melting >.>
    It's not that it's broken, but that weights will change based on other items. For example if you add 100 haste, but lose 100 mastery you could gain 100 dps but if you add 150 haste and lose 150 mastery your dps drops.

    It's all relative and why people always suggest resimming every time you make adjustments.

  6. #6
    Warchief Cyrops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucetia View Post
    It's not that it's broken, but that weights will change based on other items. For example if you add 100 haste, but lose 100 mastery you could gain 100 dps but if you add 150 haste and lose 150 mastery your dps drops.

    It's all relative and why people always suggest resimming every time you make adjustments.
    No, you can put extra stuff without removing anything.
    So you lose nothing but gain haste, which in theory should always give you DPS.
    I add 3000 haste and remove nothing and my DPS drops >.>

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucetia View Post
    It's not that it's broken, but that weights will change based on other items. For example if you add 100 haste, but lose 100 mastery you could gain 100 dps but if you add 150 haste and lose 150 mastery your dps drops.

    It's all relative and why people always suggest resimming every time you make adjustments.
    That's pretty much my conclusion as well. Either that or simcraft and FD are both missing something in their stat scaling. Been wondering if it's our abyssmal scaling with secondary stats that is causing these fluctuations in statweights.

  8. #8
    Warchief Cyrops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evixy View Post
    That's pretty much my conclusion as well. Either that or simcraft and FD are both missing something in their stat scaling. Been wondering if it's our abyssmal scaling with secondary stats that is causing these fluctuations in statweights.
    Try FD with my hunter, and in Gear: Custom Gear stats add any haste below 3000, you will see a DPS drop for some reason.

  9. #9
    Haste is inconsistent in the sims because of the effects of shot shifting (where different amounts of haste result in slightly different abilities being used, and sometimes more haste results in a less damaging usage while following the same priority). There's a disclaimer attached to the haste stat valuation that says as much. Try adjusting the fight length a bit and you can see how much the value of haste changes based on the abilities it allows you to squeeze in or not.

  10. #10
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    Adding more haste will sometimes do this, adding more crit/mastery should never do this.

    When you have higher haste, it means 1) you regen focus slightly faster, 2) which consequently means you CoS less, but you also 3) cast those CoS faster, which can lead to a loss in damage simply due to less CoS being fired. Depending on the relative weight of haste as a stat, this is *usually* outweighed by the faster auto-shots and the potential to squeeze in 1 more shot in the fight (1k haste is very little in the large scale of things as most of our abilities are at the GCD, and only CoS is a longer cast than it). But I can imagine a theoretical situation where that one extra shot doesn't outweigh the 3 or 4 CoS less you need to cast. Keep in mind, at 200k DPS levels, 3k is 1.5% less, it's not as big as you think.

  11. #11
    Higher dps gain bc more haste was converted to crit. You are also probably at a point where the mastery from that neck gives you enough with all your other mastery to go over a point. Say you have 34.99 mastery, you only have 34 mastery. If you have 35.99, and can reforge out of it and get 35.01, you have the same mastery. This is most likely why you saw what you saw.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rayne13 View Post
    You are also probably at a point where the mastery from that neck gives you enough with all your other mastery to go over a point. Say you have 34.99 mastery, you only have 34 mastery. If you have 35.99, and can reforge out of it and get 35.01, you have the same mastery.
    This gotta be one of the longest living myths that some people believe in WoW.

  13. #13
    Herald of the Titans Joyful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rayne13 View Post
    Higher dps gain bc more haste was converted to crit. You are also probably at a point where the mastery from that neck gives you enough with all your other mastery to go over a point. Say you have 34.99 mastery, you only have 34 mastery. If you have 35.99, and can reforge out of it and get 35.01, you have the same mastery. This is most likely why you saw what you saw.
    This is completely wrong.

    [00:59:24] Nick | Hunty: im a huntysexual

  14. #14
    but it was fun to treat mastery like that for the first 2 weeks of cataclysm

    Hunter PoV HC SoO videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/shanattah
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Rayne13 View Post
    Higher dps gain bc more haste was converted to crit. You are also probably at a point where the mastery from that neck gives you enough with all your other mastery to go over a point. Say you have 34.99 mastery, you only have 34 mastery. If you have 35.99, and can reforge out of it and get 35.01, you have the same mastery. This is most likely why you saw what you saw.
    Then been said a billion times to be untrue even by blizzard since the launch of Mastery, how can you still not be aware of this and keep spreading wrong information ?

  16. #16
    Warchief Cyrops's Avatar
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    Haste breakpoint and casting of CoS, faster focus regen makes sense I suppose.

    But then I tested it!

    Load my current gear.
    Calculate DPS.
    Add extra 2k haste.
    Get -3k DPS.
    Add 2 minutes to the fight (7min length).
    Lose another 1.2k DPS

    So again, W-T-Flip?

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrops View Post
    Haste breakpoint and casting of CoS, faster focus regen makes sense I suppose.

    But then I tested it!

    Load my current gear.
    Calculate DPS.
    Add extra 2k haste.
    Get -3k DPS.
    Add 2 minutes to the fight (7min length).
    Lose another 1.2k DPS

    So again, W-T-Flip?
    What sim are you using? On FD I added 2k haste and it gives me ~6k dps increase... You doing sth wrong.

    -edit-
    Okey. Now I'm confused I simed you in same condtions as me on FD and adding 2k haste... decreased you dps

    -edit2-
    I think I found the solution. Check you trinket. I did not think that anyone can use it. With +2k haste, haste became your highest stat. Change trinket and sim again.

    -edit3-
    Yep, this is it. I've changed your trinket to Bad Juju and adding 2k haste give you ~5k dps increase.
    Last edited by dzidek; 2013-10-17 at 06:13 AM.

  18. #18
    Warchief Cyrops's Avatar
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    You mean Reorigination?

    Oh son of a .....
    That explains a lot >.>

    The mystery is finally solved
    Yea WTB trinket drops ....

  19. #19
    Yep, it's about Reorigination.

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