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  1. #1

    SV: AMoC vs. Blink Strikes

    Here's my armory: Dfectiv - Stormrage (Can't post links)

    I have 4pc T16, I also have Assurance of Consequence and a heroic version of Haromm's Talisman. Given 4pc and Haromm's I've simulated the difference between the specs and SV is pulling ahead by about 5k DPS.

    ToTH is a clear winner for SV after 2pc T16 but my question is about AMoC is comparison to Blink Strikes. Murder is simming higher for me at the moment by about 2-3k DPS but I'm seeing several top hunters go with Blink Strikes.

    Examples:
    Dyveriate (Blood Legion)
    Arrowqt (Midwinter)
    Dime (Duality)

  2. #2
    The Lightbringer Joyful's Avatar
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    A slight increase in simmed DPS for an ability that cost an insane amount of focus, is a long duration DoT, and have a long CD. IMO, not worth it unless you are wiping on .5% on patchwerk fights due to DPS issues.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Joyful View Post
    A slight increase in simmed DPS for an ability that cost an insane amount of focus, is a long duration DoT, and have a long CD. IMO, not worth it unless you are wiping on .5% on patchwerk fights due to DPS issues.
    This was essentially my argument with our other hunter who swears by AMoC, and my personal thoughts.

  4. #4
    amoc is one of the worst talents man, it's only useful for kael'thas.

  5. #5
    My results (557ilvl and 2 set) in simulationcraft with 25k iterations, for SV aMoC is a clear winner.

    Crit -> Haste -> Mastery

    ToTH + aMoC: 271056
    ToTH + BS: 265301

    For BM aMoC is ahead with ~1,8k dps which isn't enough for me to use it over BS.

  6. #6
    The Lightbringer Joyful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusk View Post
    My results (557ilvl and 2 set) in simulationcraft with 25k iterations, for SV aMoC is a clear winner.

    Crit -> Haste -> Mastery

    ToTH + aMoC: 271056
    ToTH + BS: 265301

    For BM aMoC is ahead with ~1,8k dps which isn't enough for me to use it over BS.
    Simcraft 50k iterations, 549 ilvl t15 4p. (link in sig if it is super important).

    SV
    Crit > Haste > Mastery

    ToTH + aMoC: 242853.7
    ToTH + BS: 236213.4
    Fervor + aMoC: 239677.8
    Fervor + BS: 235925.3

    And on Femaledwarf with the same gear and stat prio.

    ToTH + aMoC: 233029.97
    ToTH + BS: 237113.40
    Fervor + aMoC: 233134.35
    Fervor + BS: 238967.82

    So on SimC, ToTH + amoc is the best, and Fervor + BS is the worst, whilst on FD it is the exact opposite.... =/

  7. #7
    I use BS simply because I find AMoC unpleasant to weave into the rotation due to its massive Focus cost. I doubt it really makes all that much difference for a casubad like myself.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by dfectiv View Post
    Here's my armory: Dfectiv - Stormrage (Can't post links)

    I have 4pc T16, I also have Assurance of Consequence and a heroic version of Haromm's Talisman. Given 4pc and Haromm's I've simulated the difference between the specs and SV is pulling ahead by about 5k DPS.

    ToTH is a clear winner for SV after 2pc T16 but my question is about AMoC is comparison to Blink Strikes. Murder is simming higher for me at the moment by about 2-3k DPS but I'm seeing several top hunters go with Blink Strikes.

    Examples:
    Dyveriate (Blood Legion)
    Arrowqt (Midwinter)
    Dime (Duality)
    This needs to be said, but AMOC is only worth it when you can put it up on CD right from the start with full uptime on a target and have it refreshed on CD everytime with the same criteria.

    It really is a question of strategy, and there are no progression fights for me that are tanked in such a way that Survival is able to compete marginally better than BM this tier; given that the only time you might play survival would be for add fights, BS is also utility by means of pet uptime.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrowqt View Post
    This needs to be said, but AMOC is only worth it when you can put it up on CD right from the start with full uptime on a target and have it refreshed on CD everytime with the same criteria.

    It really is a question of strategy, and there are no progression fights for me that are tanked in such a way that Survival is able to compete marginally better than BM this tier; given that the only time you might play survival would be for add fights, BS is also utility by means of pet uptime.
    I appreciate your response but I am a bit confused by your wording. Do you mean to say that fights are generally tanked with stacked adds rather than split and this benefits beast cleave enough to rule out playing survival?

  10. #10
    The Lightbringer Tehterokkar's Avatar
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    Well for example, I found SV to be much better on Immerseus(pet doing retarded pathing and running), Fallen Protectors, Dark Shaman, Nazgrim, Blackfuse and Garrosh(assigned as Engineer killer).

    Immerseus: Pet patching causes BM to be a bit derpy, also guaranteed LnL for add phase through AoE slow trap on blobs. Also on Heroic adds will be spread a bit.
    Fallen Protectors: On 25m we keep them all apart, so Beast Cleave wouldn't work. Dotting up all 3 pandas + phase adds makes SV feel better.
    Dark Shaman: Pet can VERY easily die from the adds if you are assigned to kill them, otherwise BM.
    Nazgrim: Target switching over long distances, not much else to say about BM being worse choice here. SV is much better at fast target switching.
    Blackfuse: If on Assembly line duty: SV(pets despawn for ~5 sec when you jump off there). If on Crawler mine duty: SV for multi-dotting and better target switching.
    Garrosh: I tried both, ended up liking SV more for the ease of target switching it provides on Weapon, Mind Control, Engineer, temple run phases.

    It's not even really comparable how much better SV is at target switching fights, where BM is king of tunneling and clumped AoE. You can still go BM and keep pet on Garrosh while you use Arcane shot/etc. on Desecrated weapon... But hey, 60% of your damage is going to the wrong target at that point of the fight.

  11. #11
    Watching Envy's Thok kill makes me envious of the gear Dela and Yooz have to play around with for Surv. ( I think both were surv atleast, maybe 1 was BM)

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by dfectiv View Post
    I appreciate your response but I am a bit confused by your wording. Do you mean to say that fights are generally tanked with stacked adds rather than split and this benefits beast cleave enough to rule out playing survival?
    Yes, I don't see survival ever beating BM in terms of clumped aoe. Also this is in terms of talking about the heroic bosses that matter for progression on 25M, not those that we barely spent 2 pulls on, meaning anything after malkarok.

  13. #13
    The Lightbringer Joyful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woobels View Post
    Watching Envy's Thok kill makes me envious of the gear Dela and Yooz have to play around with for Surv. ( I think both were surv atleast, maybe 1 was BM)
    Basically just 4 set and you are good to go SV.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Joyful View Post
    Basically just 4 set and you are good to go SV.
    Whackamole mode, activate.
    Also, you'd be surprised how important the CDR trinket is for SV, means you can refresh BA during trinket procs a lot more often
    Last edited by Dela2k10; 2013-09-22 at 09:35 AM.
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  15. #15
    The Lightbringer Joyful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dela2k10 View Post
    Whackamole mode, activate.
    Also, you'd be surprised how important the CDR trinket is for SV, means you can refresh BA during trinket procs a lot more often
    Luckily it's one of the only upgrades I've gotten -_-

  16. #16
    For me (SV with 2 set) simc gives TotH+aMoC > TotH+LR > TotH+BS, but FD shows TotH+LR being best.
    You think Lynx Rush is really worth considering?

  17. #17
    Brewmaster Zaxio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minihunter View Post
    For me (SV with 2 set) simc gives TotH+aMoC > TotH+LR > TotH+BS, but FD shows TotH+LR being best.
    You think Lynx Rush is really worth considering?
    Well i use LR atm on survival ofc for some bosses is abit pointles coz there are lots of targets around but if you time it perfect can do shitloads of damage Garrosh is the fight where i preff it i use it on Garrosh itself on pull then on desecrated weapons coz mine pet sits on them 24/7 because i`m on engeneers duty.Fro fight like that i would preff Crows but the CD and focus cost is too big to be in any use before ph3 mark except on boss who i target rarely
    Maybe when i obtain 4pts will try crows with the idea to use them when weare in shadow realm
    Last edited by Zaxio; 2013-09-23 at 06:06 PM.

  18. #18
    Could someone describe how procs affect AMoC for me?

    I ask because if AMoC does not update dynamically, I can see it being a lot stronger than people give it credit for. Since the Ticking Ebon Detonator procs immediately at the start of the fight almost without fail, if you cast AMoC immediately (at ~18-20 stacks of the buff), along with your pre-pot, it can be extremely strong, possibly furthering the gap between Blink Strikes and AMoC. If it updates dynamically, then procs aren't quite as relevant, and it might be worth it to just go BS for its reliability/utility/ease-of-use.

  19. #19
    AMOC updates dynamically, every tick.

  20. #20
    AMOC is better dps if it can be used to its full duration.. eg; Immersus it would be a TERRIBLE talent as, especially later in the fight, the boss doesn't stay up for 30 seconds.

    For Garrosh(normal) its a good talent, as the boss is always *there* to take damage... and if you happened to catch it during a phase change (where the dot was up still when the boss hit 10%), then you likely APPLIED AMOC sub 20%, and got the -1min off the CD anyway...

    If you want real world examples; play any fight with AMOC. Look at the damage afterwords.
    ex:
    AMOC did 5mil on fight X for me.
    My pet's BITE attack did 2mil
    If I had blinkstrikes, my pet bite attack would have done 3mil.
    The delta is 2mil -- Subtract 2 arcane shots for the focus cost.. and THAT fight, the delta is somewhere around a 1.8mil dmg gain by using crows... probably 1.5-1.8 given pet travel time that blink strikes would have *blinked* away.

    PS Ticken Ebon Det is terrible.. so front loaded, hard to react to... if SV was our top spec by far, it wouldn't be AS bad... but with TBW, we'd have to have hairtrigger reflex to get the most use out of it. I plan to stick to assurance and Multistrike (Haroms?).

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