Elitist VS Low Skilled Player? Who to kick first?

[Vankrys]

How about you stick to the topic at hand instead of trying to derail it into an uninteresting non dilemma?

how about a realistic comparaison, not a fictional one ful of stereotype.

Very good, elite player, does drive the raid forward. You might found their criticism hurtful, but more often than not, they have wealth of experience with raid and encounter that can benefit the whole group.

A low dps, not gem, not enchanted, dying in every patch of fire possible is not driving the raid, no matter how silent he his, he may very well be the reason why the pug will wipe on boss #2 for the next 3 hours.

[Jiigeri]

Especially for a pug, an asshole I can tolerate but I really wouldn't care to watch someone keep failing and slowing the group down. From guild point of view, kick the bad player first and the asshole when you have an replacement ready.

[Deleted]

How about you stick to the topic at hand instead of trying to derail it into an uninteresting non dilemma?

All you are doing there is derailing a thread that hadn't been derailed by accusing other people of trying to derail.

[Shuji V2]

Honestly, if you want to compare, make sure you pick both extremes and not just one. The elitist is pretty extreme while it looks like the low skilled player can be improved upon.

However, an elitist constantly nitpicking and bitching at everything but being at the top of his game is someone who I would pick a thousand times over someone who repeatedly stands in fire, is oblivious to mechanics and doesn't really contribute to the raid at all. To me, the extreme of someone who is low skilled is content with what he/she is doing and doesn't see the greater picture of completing the raid and thus has no need to improve, no need to read up, no need to be aware etc.

Someone who doesn't have any skill whatsoever will only drag the raid down. I simply do not understand why you want to put such a burden on your raid and let the rest pick up the slack of this "newb". All you do with that is up their stress levels for having to outperform themselves and having to worry about someone who doesn't have a clue.

Give me the elitist any day please. It might become unpleasant, but we get the job done.

[Hyve]

It is completely possible to be an elitist without being a total jerk. I've been called out as an elitist simply because I invest a lot of money and time into my character.

A low-skilled player (in my experience) is either someone not interested entirely in the content, or someone who simply can not grasp the concepts of the game. They are actively holding the team back and as such are a hindrance, but efforts should be made to help them improve.

[Sole-Warrior]

In reality 99% of the raidguilds will kick the low skilled player, no matter what the the results of this poll might be.

I know because I used to be one myself. I gave people that made mistakes on bossfights extreme amounts of grief, up to the point of bullying. Every single guild I was in, the officers always rather kept me than the noobs I picked fights with. The latter were very easily replaced after all.

I've been in a couple TOT pugs. We have a couple lowbies doing 84k dps, 2 other dpsers at 120-140k dps and the elitist at 170k, the 170ker was starting a lot of drama and acting like a total douche that he was promptly removed halfway.

[lopk]

Low skilled player but we invented the "mute" button for a reason.

This is how I feel. However, it depends on the situation. Is the LFR (he said pug, so it could be)? Are you just doing a fun run before Tuesday? What's the personality of the low skilled player?

[crakerjack]

When I used to raid, I was that elitest... never messed up and I'd be on peoples cases... I wouldn't call them a noob and make fun of them... i'd say something like "why didn't you move out of that puddle? you took 2 tics, what the hell are you doing?" I did this all through whispers. What I really hate is when bad players will try and defend themselves or come up with an excuse, when they do that... then i give them shit storms. If I'm not messing up, then there's NO WAY you're messing up too.

I think it's from all the team sports i played growing up... I expected everyone else to put forth as much effort as I, if not more, so when someone is doing sub-par, I get this irritated feeling that doesn't subside unless they pick it up.

To answer your question OP... a bad player can get better, if he has the will to do so... you can't force him to read up his class, you can't force him to spend hours mastering his dps rotation. Chances are, that noob isn't the only person messing up... a true elitest doesn't want anyone messing up... I'd just go ahead and kick the elitest because if you have bad players in your guild to begin w/ kicking one noob won't make the elitest any happier, he'll just find a new person to attack when they mess up.

[Ultima]

I know how to handle people like me.

I also wish to complete the raid/instance/win@PvP. I find wipes and losing more frustrating especially when it's not my fault. It's good to know that there's a lot of people willing to take Little Billy once kicked though.

[Chingylol]

Also, low skilled players whine about the littlest things. Take LFR for example. A guy that was top DPS by a huge margin once needed on a few greens. Noone really gives a crap except bad players, let's face it. The one guy on bottom dps of course starts the "KICK THAT GUY HES A NINJA" and went on a rant getting his panties bunched up for about 20g worth of mats that he only had a 1 in 25 chance to win anyway. If you're already getting carried, 20-40g is nothing versus wipin and wasting time.

[Vankrys]

i have muted (and ignore) people in my pug in the past, because i couldn't stand them, but they got the job done and often are reliable in fight.
Unless it's the raid leader, it probabaly not a big deal to mute someone.

an absolute horrible player however, no way to "mute" it. you will see all the wipe indicing mistake, all the non-contribution to the raid like an horror movie in slow motion. and worst of all, he will be the one winning a token. /sigh.

[Deleted]

I would kick the elitist as he/she will just make the whole experience bad for everyone. A low skilled player can be taught and at worst carried.

[ThunderPussy]

I'd kick them both.

[nekobaka]

The description is stacked against the "elitist" in a biased manner. What if the slow skilled player was disrupting group play making the fights far more stressful for the other group members and maybe even causing wipes?

Edit: OP updated OP to fluff out the slow skill player. In the end it comes down to what is best for the group. Will a group get stuck and disband with the low skill player who isnt a team player or will players just have to make use of their ignore buttons. If the elitist started acting out in a physical manner to grief the group then it would be a clear cut to drop them on that manner alone.

Personally I have never seen an elitist as bad as the one described over my eight years of playing while I have seen many of the other. While I have seen those that jump over that and go right into griefing the group by pulling extra trash or intentionally botching mechanics to cause wipes and these players do get kicked. People who run their mouths but work together as a team and pull their weight can be ignored while the low skilled player is going to place more pressure on other players and can lead to additional time investment to clear something that other members of the group might not have resulting in a failed group.

[Vankrys]

i wonder how LFR would go if there wasn't those "elistist" playr participating, if LFR was strictly casual player only.

want to find out? just make the normal and heroic tag be shared with LFR. that owe to be fun to see.

[slime]

The better question is.. how the fuck did I end up in a situation with these two pricks in my raid group.

Also the bad player really only hinders you by stealing the spot from another (better) dps or an extra healer. If they are really that bad then they are probably dead within the first 20-30 seconds of the fight and can just lay there in peace while the rest of you finish up.

The elitist is a tougher case. Sometimes I hate having these folks in the raid group - because we were all laughing and having some fun with it and they are just party poopers. On the other hand, elitist pricks have been my heroes in the past. They have no problem telling the guild leader or raid leader that "your fucking GF sucks at wow and she's holding us all back." or "FFS how can you die in every attempt to that slow ass lazer beam the boss shoots out, MOVE! or be kicked from the raid!" Sometimes it just needs to be said.

[mizeri]

kick them both and have a quiet skilled player

[Redlokyldoreifanggore]

Well I can always /ignore the elitist. As long as he isn't wasting time and is putting forth his fullest, honest share of effort based on his skill, I'd let him stay.

The low dps'er, honestly, is someone that I can only tolerate so much of. I find it extremely frustrating when a person is at level 88 or above and still has no idea what gear they actually need or how to correctly play their class. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of forums, fan-sites, build-sites, etc. that can help you. You also have a slew of guild mates and people on your server that can help you, not everyone in game is stuck up and rude.

If the low dps'er is unable to change their performance, whether it's simply figuring out their abilities, or an inability to understand that BIG, BUBBLY, FIERY GREEN/RED/PURPLE/BLUE CIRCLE IS BAD, then they need to be cut for the sake of the those who do possess the competency of raiding (even in LFR pugs).

I know, we were all noobs once, that's why we got help BEFORE we did the big things, OR we got yelled at and made an effort to figure out how to fix the problem we were facing.

[DechCJC]

It completely depends on what you're doing... If you're solely there for the progression and someone is really holding everyone back with their low skill, then they need removed - I highly doubt that there would even be an elitist in your group if you were pushing progress in a high-end raiding guild, because quite frankly he shouldn't have 'that' much to complain about as he's blatantly not gonna be much better than the rest of you - If it's just a random pug or flexi raid with friends, i'd probably kick the asshole. You can carry friends etc in flexi mode and maybe even normal mode to a certain extent, but sometimes it's just not a good day to put up with a complete prick.

[Cosmic Janitor]

How about you stick to the topic at hand instead of trying to derail it into an uninteresting non dilemma?

Because the attention seeking, poorly constructed attempt at flame bating with the always polarizing topic of elitist vs noob was that interesting?

Anyway, the solution always depends on the situation anyway. Is the elitist really that great? Is the noob really that bad? As someone said, the most frightening player is usually the average one :P. Personally I'd most likely go with the elitist, because you can always mute the elitist and a newbie is easily replaced. Anyone that raided in "friendly" guilds will probably attest to the fact that 90% of the bad people will always be bad, no matter how much effort you put into them. You can condition them to suck less, but making them really great players you want in your group? That happens rather rarely. The same is btw true for shitty co-workers as well, chances are that if he couldn't grasp it back during his prime he won't get it now in his late 40's either. Some people are simply bad and will always stay that way, some people will always be assholes and will probably stay that way as well. Of course there are ways to change this some of the time, but usually TS/Vent and a couple hour/minute time limit won't be enough to induce a lifechanging event for most of them.