1. #1

    Prot and Critical Strike

    So, I mean has the math been done yet? With the change so that crits from devastate + shield slam proc enrage, which means more rage for us and thus more shield blocks is critical strike a valid stat for prot warriors?

    The main reason I ask is that my Main Spec is DPS, meaning that my DPS gear is much higher ilvl than my tank so if the crit on my DPS gear now isn't all that bad for tanking I would have to change a lot less items when respecing.

  2. #2
    Imo its a complete waste to gem/gear crit over avoidance for a few reasons.

    1. You gain maybe 0.5-1% crit by going full out crit (So as far as damage is concerned, its really not a lot)
    2. You get less revenge CD resets due to having around 18% less avoidance. (More rage to burn on DPS if you so wish)
    3. Revenge hits more than devastate, so perhaps the extra damage from revenge outweighs the crit you gain? (Just a guess)
    4. You have around 18% less avoidance....... (think about it, taking less damage means your healers can go offensive also)

    All in all, I really don't think its worth it. You are trading so much for a measly 1% extra crit that in-turn you actually lose DPS due to not being able to cast as many revenges. This is only my opinion and I get these numbers from the PTR testing that I did when I was working out how I could go for when 5.4 hit. I deemed that the benefits of going dodge/parry far outweighed the benefits of crit.

    Now, is it viable? Sure it is, bosses don't hit that hard in normal so you can go however you feel comfortable. If you want to tank and have some crit gear, yea it will work - but I would personally advise against it.

    I hope this answers your question.
    -Clampy

    EDIT: Just want to be clear - I have no math to back up my claims other than common sense and a tiny bit of PTR testing. If I get proven otherwise I will gladly change my stance.
    Last edited by Clampy; 2013-09-19 at 01:11 PM.

  3. #3
    Moderator eddytheone's Avatar
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    I'd have to agree with Clampy, and also bare in mind that being more durable means you can take more damage in general / more adds for increased vengeance
    Also you would lose a fair amount of revenge procs which is a pretty big deal

    The biggest gain you are going to get is going to be going from a stam trinket to a crit trinket such as the Primordius one or gaze of the twins (SoO Equivalents as well)


    In more direct response to your question if survivability is your concern then crit probably wont cut it, however damage wise you will be more than fine

  4. #4
    I'm more thinking that our actual tank will be getting the majority of tank gear for now, so lets say that my DPS gear (majority crit/mastery) is 550 ilvl and my Tank gear is 530 ilvl. Due to the fact crit does infact play a small part in prot now, would I be better of wearing the DPS gear?

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Fitsu View Post
    I'm more thinking that our actual tank will be getting the majority of tank gear for now, so lets say that my DPS gear (majority crit/mastery) is 550 ilvl and my Tank gear is 530 ilvl. Due to the fact crit does infact play a small part in prot now, would I be better of wearing the DPS gear?
    The higher level gear's stats (armor/Sta/Str->Parry) more than makes up for the missing dodge/parry. I would however reforge your Crit to Dodge/Parry to get a little bit more survivability.

  6. #6
    I personally am using a crit build without sacrificing a mass amount of mitagation, but I find instead of crit purely I use the str crit gems wherever possible for the added damage and small amount of parry gain. So basically am sitting on 15% and as riposte and the gaze of the twins rolls in Im just under 50% and I find my rage generation is insane and easy to keep shields rolling, and the damage comes out alot higher then when I just tried a pure parry/dodge build. Hope that helps.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Lycan333 View Post
    I personally am using a crit build without sacrificing a mass amount of mitagation, but I find instead of crit purely I use the str crit gems wherever possible for the added damage and small amount of parry gain. So basically am sitting on 15% and as riposte and the gaze of the twins rolls in Im just under 50% and I find my rage generation is insane and easy to keep shields rolling, and the damage comes out alot higher then when I just tried a pure parry/dodge build. Hope that helps.
    If I was going to go crit and gem with hybrids I'd go with parry/crit so that you're still getting more crit from riposte. Strength doesn't factor into that equation at all.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Lycan333 View Post
    I use the str crit gems wherever possible for the added damage and small amount of parry gain.
    ......Strength?

    How does the 160 AP help at all when you're getting 200k+ from vengeance? Primary stats don't scale with themselves, but secondaries scale very well with primary stats. Parry is going to be doing much, much more for both damage and survivability at 100k+ vengeance due to riposte + possible revenge procs.

  9. #9
    Why are Prot Warriors SOO fucking worried about their damage? You're a tank. Hold aggro and stay alive. I doubt that MOST posters are at the point where min maxing their damage is the most of their problems.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhiem View Post
    Why are Prot Warriors SOO fucking worried about their damage? You're a tank. Hold aggro and stay alive. I doubt that MOST posters are at the point where min maxing their damage is the most of their problems.
    Tank damage is very important in raiding this expansion - we're top damage on a number of fights and it's rare to be at the bottom. On any fight that has a tight enrage our performance in terms of damage is just as or more important than a dps.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhiem View Post
    Why are Prot Warriors SOO fucking worried about their damage? You're a tank. Hold aggro and stay alive. I doubt that MOST posters are at the point where min maxing their damage is the most of their problems.
    You clearly haven't read anything anyone has said, the general idea behind a warrior is generating rage for shield barrier. With this patch our crits cause an enrage effect and when we get that effect we generate rage. Therefore crit = rage = defense, nobody has mentioned anything about how these stats effect our DPS (although it is also a consideration, losing a minor amount of mitigation for a large amount of damage is reasonable). Also the original point of this topic was to ask if the gains from crit now makes my DPS gear viable for tanking if the situation would ever occur, as it is much higher ilvl than my prot gear.

    TLDR;

    Don't respond based on assumptions, understand what people are talking about so that you can make an informed response.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozendekay View Post
    ......Strength?

    How does the 160 AP help at all when you're getting 200k+ from vengeance? Primary stats don't scale with themselves, but secondaries scale very well with primary stats. Parry is going to be doing much, much more for both damage and survivability at 100k+ vengeance due to riposte + possible revenge procs.
    well if you read all what I wrote you would see that I had tried the pure parry/dodge option, it didnt work out as good as this does. Strength not only adds base damage but a small amount of parry anyway. With my gear atm I still have a large amount of parry/dodge anyways. I also have no trouble at all staying alive.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Fitsu View Post
    You clearly haven't read anything anyone has said, the general idea behind a warrior is generating rage for shield barrier. With this patch our crits cause an enrage effect and when we get that effect we generate rage. Therefore crit = rage = defense, nobody has mentioned anything about how these stats effect our DPS (although it is also a consideration, losing a minor amount of mitigation for a large amount of damage is reasonable). Also the original point of this topic was to ask if the gains from crit now makes my DPS gear viable for tanking if the situation would ever occur, as it is much higher ilvl than my prot gear.

    TLDR;

    Don't respond based on assumptions, understand what people are talking about so that you can make an informed response.
    Clearly you've gone out of your way to try and openly condescend me based on your own assumptions. I was off base with a comment yes.

  14. #14
    The Lightbringer Tehterokkar's Avatar
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    1 Strength = 0.8 or 0.9 Parry(can't remember which).

  15. #15
    If you want to see how crit affects your tanking, SimulationCraft has been updated to show tank stat weights based on either Damage Taken Per Second, or a burst metric called TMI Theck outlined at http://www.sacredduty.net/2013/07/01...metric-part-1/. It may not be entirely complete for warriors, but since I've read that there are dedicated warrior programmers it should be fine.

    Regarding strength and parry, Theck went over the strength>parry stuff quite rigorously at http://www.sacredduty.net/2013/08/08...nts-all-tanks/. Basically, 951 strength equals 1% parry before DR, which is equivalent to 885 rating. Divide those two and you get strength granting 93% the parry of pure parry rating, before taking into account stuff like the 5% boost of Blessing of Kings. Once you do factor in that 5%, 905.8 strength is equivalent to that 885 parry rating, which makes strength about 97.7% the value of pure parry. In other words, 1 strength = .977 parry.
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope View Post
    Regarding strength and parry, Theck went over the strength>parry stuff quite rigorously at http://www.sacredduty.net/2013/08/08...nts-all-tanks/. Basically, 951 strength equals 1% parry before DR, which is equivalent to 885 rating. Divide those two and you get strength granting 93% the parry of pure parry rating, before taking into account stuff like the 5% boost of Blessing of Kings. Once you do factor in that 5%, 905.8 strength is equivalent to that 885 parry rating, which makes strength about 97.7% the value of pure parry. In other words, 1 strength = .977 parry.
    Which means that you should still stick to Parry gems, since the ratio for gems is 2:1.
    Also, Strength gives you AP but no Parry rating, so you're trading AP against Crit, which is not a really good trade imo. Vengeance gives us far more AP than Strength gems/trinkets ever will, we're lacking Crit more than AP.
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehterokkar View Post
    1 Strength = 0.8 or 0.9 Parry(can't remember which).
    Parry gained from Strength is not considered Parry Rating. Because Riposte only cares about Parry and Dodge rating it will not get buffed by using Strength. Plus as was mentioned you still get more Parry with a Parry cut rather than Strength given that secondary stats on gems are double that of Strength.

    Edit: Bleh, really should read other people's responses in full; Senen already explained why Parry gems are beating Strength gems.
    Last edited by Trubo; 2013-09-22 at 12:44 AM.

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