Page 49 of 51 FirstFirst ...
39
47
48
49
50
51
LastLast
  1. #961
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    You cannot, even in the worst nightmare, compare it to the effort needed to model bosses, raids, and character in a "standard" MMO.
    EVE is basically models (and modelling a vehicle is MILES easier than a humanoid) and background.
    That does not mean it's not a good game of course
    That would depend on how many of those models were actually new rather than the same old thing either rehashed or straight cloned from previous iterations. You have a fair point, though - particularly on modelling the vehicles vs. humanoids.
    There is only one thing that we say to the god of death.
    "Take Sean Bean instead."

  2. #962
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    Raiding was not the issue, 5-mans were. The transition from LK to Cata was far too brutal in that respect.
    I think there were some people who just do 5 mans, who saw what the Cata 5 mans were like, and said "I'm outta here".

    I think there were some people who wanted to raid, but saw what the 5 mans were like, and went "the raids are going to be harder than that?!" and then gave up.

    And I think there were some people who made it through into T11, found the raids were unenjoyably difficult, and stopped.

    I think there were also those who were on the borderline, and had guilds collapse out from under them for these reasons, and friends depart, and then left themselves.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  3. #963
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    And your source for that is?
    I'm not saying he is right, but his statement has as much support and reasoning as any "Subs went down because of X!"-argument.
    It's not like anyone has facts, we have to go by info we have. Large amounts of people don't leave over dungeon tuning. Not that the tuning was even bad, people were crying for nerfs before they even got out of blue gear.
    As far as guessing why subs have fell, judging be the data WE have, the whole new philosophy Cata brought is the biggest indicator, considering the real sub decline came following its release.
    People try to dismiss that, and then turn it around saying that WoW would have lost more subs if it didn't change. But that lacks even more proof than what I said..
    It gets dark because the sun goes down... Oh nevermind, correlation is not causation, silly me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Equally as delusional as
    Actually not. What I said has logic behind it. Calling Cata/MoP non-casual defies logic, since they are more casual than WoW has ever been(FACT).

    Quote Originally Posted by worsthitmanNa View Post
    They started diping in wotlk bro.
    That was normal end of expansion decline, like you will soon be seeing for MoP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    Of course it did. People expected something better than even WOTLK (hence the sub increase just before Cata) and all they got were stupidly tuned heroics. Look at the sub graph, it's a looooong fall up to 4.3, where easy 5-mans and LFR stopped the decrease for 2 quarters.
    They were only stupidly tuned for stupid people. The problem isn't that they're overturned, it's that the playerbase is so bad/lazy that they no longer have patience for any mandatory content that isn't complete faceroll. LFR only stopped sub drops temporarily because it was something completely new to the game, that alone got old players to resub at least a month just to check it out.
    Signature

  4. #964
    Titan Kangodo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    13,007
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    It's not like anyone has facts, we have to go by info we have. Large amounts of people don't leave over dungeon tuning. Not that the tuning was even bad, people were crying for nerfs before they even got out of blue gear.
    As far as guessing why subs have fell, judging be the data WE have, the whole new philosophy Cata brought is the biggest indicator, considering the real sub decline came following its release.
    People try to dismiss that, and then turn it around saying that WoW would have lost more subs if it didn't change. But that lacks even more proof than what I said..
    It gets dark because the sun goes down... Oh nevermind, correlation is not causation, silly me...
    No no, I completely agree with you.
    The moment they made dungeons and raids much harder it caused a massive decline in subs.
    When they nerfed it, they lowered the decline.
    And when LFR came, they stopped it.
    For a while..

  5. #965
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    No no, I completely agree with you.
    The moment they made dungeons and raids much harder it caused a massive decline in subs.
    That had a very small affect. People are always bitching about dungeon difficulty tuning, most people don't quit over it. That was a very small part of what they changed after Wrath.
    Signature

  6. #966
    In the end, multiple things have cause sub losses. Dungeons, raids, LFR, PVP, all of it caused sub losses. Blizzard at this point is trying to cater to everyone which is working and not working at the same time. Complaining and saying that one solution is better then the other isn't going to do any good and in the end, Blizzard is going to do what they want. If they want to keep LFR cause "casuals" like it, then they are going to do that. If they want to go the "hardcore" route, then they will do that. Blizzard at this point is going to do what they can to keep subs and keep money rolling in and we are all here just to see what happens next.

  7. #967
    Quote Originally Posted by HeedmySpeed View Post
    Hey! Hey, get back here with those goal posts!
    Excuse me? It's not "moving the goalposts" when I said most of this in a giant bullet point in the very first post I linked. The fact that you mysteriously think Eve is a valid comparison to WoW even though the two have almost nothing in common isn't my problem.

    The entire reason for comparing WoW to other games in the first place is to determine whether its subscriber loss is an alarming fuckup that should be taken as a sign of design failure, or a natural part of the game's lifecycle. Pointing out that one oddball indie PVP game (which took 3 years just to break 0.1m subs) went longer without decline doesn't tell us a fucking thing in answer to that question.

    That is explicitly why I compared WoW to "only the most successful market-leading games" in my linked post. I could have easily compared WoW to a bunch of flops like WAR/AOC/SWTOR, or a bunch of also-rans like DAOC/COH/LOTRO, all of which declined much sooner than WoW, but those wouldn't be very constructive comparisons either, even though all those games are much more similar to WoW than Eve is.

    For the record, there's at least one other weird indie MMO, besides EVE, that also went past six years without a decline in users. It wasn't blurbed on the front page of MMOdata though, so you don't know about it. Since it has even less in common with WoW than Eve does, I'm not going to bother bringing it up either.

  8. #968
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimble View Post
    That is explicitly why I compared WoW to "only the most successful market-leading games" in my linked post. I could have easily compared WoW to a bunch of flops like WAR/AOC/SWTOR, or a bunch of also-rans like DAOC/COH/LOTRO, all of which declined much sooner than WoW, but those wouldn't be very constructive comparisons either, even though all those games are much more similar to WoW than Eve is.

    For the record, there's at least one other weird indie MMO, besides EVE, that also went past six years without a decline in users. It wasn't blurbed on the front page of MMOdata though, so you don't know about it. Since it has even less in common with WoW than Eve does, I'm not going to bother bringing it up either.
    So you left out other MMO games because they don't agree with your argument.
    And you're saying no matter what Blizzard did they would have the same subscribers left they have today?
    You still believe the design choices had no impact on subscriber turn out because the game was meant to go down this way?

    If this was all so true why did they even bother flipping the "nerf everything for the mouth breathers" switch?

    This is really hard to grasp my head around that you blame the sub loses at age because other akin MMO's did the same.
    Ok fine, age has all to do with it and it's completely 100% out of the devs hands. They could've added farting magical donkeys to the game and the same thing would have occured.
    Seriously, what the fuck are you thinking?

  9. #969
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    That was normal end of expansion decline, like you will soon be seeing for MoP.
    Actually wrath decline started since Naxx was launched and for entire Xpac

  10. #970
    Even I raided during BC and I had minimal time to play the game, I never believed the 1% shit. I was a casual, I never progressed past Tier 1 (Kara, Gruul's, MK) but I still raided.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by PrairieChicken View Post
    Actually wrath decline started since Naxx was launched and for entire Xpac
    It leveled out during Wrath... Decline did start but it wasn't noticeable. When ToC came along, that's when the game started getting stale for me, I could skip Ulduar, a tier I was working towards and I just felt fucked? They always talk about, "Everyone should see the content", well why couldn't I see Ulduar? Because you could out gear it with 5 mans... It just pissed me off.
    The Runaway. I love my new nickname. Is there a picture of me? Does it look good?

  11. #971
    Quote Originally Posted by Aang View Post
    Even I raided during BC and I had minimal time to play the game, I never believed the 1% shit. I was a casual, I never progressed past Tier 1 (Kara, Gruul's, MK) but I still raided.

    - - - Updated - - -



    It leveled out during Wrath... Decline did start but it wasn't noticeable. When ToC came along, that's when the game started getting stale for me, I could skip Ulduar, a tier I was working towards and I just felt fucked? They always talk about, "Everyone should see the content", well why couldn't I see Ulduar? Because you could out gear it with 5 mans... It just pissed me off.
    You didn't see Ulduar because you didn't pug it... You could out gear it but the hard modes were still their. Its honestly your fault.
    You're right except for 2 things.

    1. My name is spelt "God" not "Loucious-sama".
    2. I'm not a man, because man is inherently flawed. I am in fact a being so far beyond your comprehension that archaic constraints like flesh, blood, time and consequently, gender, have no meaning to me.

  12. #972
    Quote Originally Posted by worsthitmanNa View Post
    You didn't see Ulduar because you didn't pug it... You could out gear it but the hard modes were still their. Its honestly your fault.
    Nobody was raiding it after ToC, literally there was no reason too so people just skipped over it.
    The Runaway. I love my new nickname. Is there a picture of me? Does it look good?

  13. #973
    Quote Originally Posted by Aang View Post
    Nobody was raiding it after ToC, literally there was no reason too so people just skipped over it.
    There was titles, mounts, and upgrades. I saw pugs form in trade on my server even during icc and toc. There were still pugs for naxx from time to time(till this day I have no clue why). If not why didn't you start you own pug? Ulduar dropped 239 gear on heroic which was better than what dropped out of normal toc. Their were still reasons to run it. I was running it while trying to get a shield because the one in Toc never dropped. Heroic even with Toc gear was a bitch Btw. I mean people still ran the ruby sanctum instances for the mounts so Its hard to believe there were no pugs. Were you on a low pop server?
    Last edited by worsthitmanNa; 2013-09-29 at 06:42 AM.
    You're right except for 2 things.

    1. My name is spelt "God" not "Loucious-sama".
    2. I'm not a man, because man is inherently flawed. I am in fact a being so far beyond your comprehension that archaic constraints like flesh, blood, time and consequently, gender, have no meaning to me.

  14. #974
    Quote Originally Posted by worsthitmanNa View Post
    There was titles, mounts, and upgrades. I saw pugs form in trade on my server even during icc and toc. There were still pugs for naxx from time to time(till this day I have no clue why). If not why didn't you start you own pug? Ulduar dropped 239 gear on heroic which was better than what dropped out of normal toc. Their were still reasons to run it. I was running it while trying to get a shield because the one in Toc never dropped. Heroic even with Toc gear was a bitch Btw. I mean people still ran the ruby sanctum instances for the mounts so Its hard to believe there were no pugs. Were you on a low pop server?
    Well, pugging wasn't really a thing for Ulduar or Naxx on my server. ICC yes.
    The Runaway. I love my new nickname. Is there a picture of me? Does it look good?

  15. #975
    Quote Originally Posted by Aang View Post
    Well, pugging wasn't really a thing for Ulduar or Naxx on my server. ICC yes.
    You missed out if you made it through ulduar heroic. Icc would have put you to sleep felt like the game was in slow mo honestly.
    You're right except for 2 things.

    1. My name is spelt "God" not "Loucious-sama".
    2. I'm not a man, because man is inherently flawed. I am in fact a being so far beyond your comprehension that archaic constraints like flesh, blood, time and consequently, gender, have no meaning to me.

  16. #976
    Quote Originally Posted by worsthitmanNa View Post
    You missed out if you made it through ulduar heroic. Icc would have put you to sleep felt like the game was in slow mo honestly.
    Oh don't worry it did.
    The Runaway. I love my new nickname. Is there a picture of me? Does it look good?

  17. #977
    This is really hard to grasp my head around that you blame the sub loses at age because other akin MMO's did the same.
    Ok fine, age has all to do with it and it's completely 100% out of the devs hands. They could've added farting magical donkeys to the game and the same thing would have occured. Seriously, what the fuck are you thinking?
    Funny stuff. I agree.. Let's face it - while making your game to hard for everyone is a mistake. Making your game faceroll isn't really a solution either. People burn through the content too fast - and they don't make any social connections. Its not at all important that everyone sees all the content either. You do want some content for everyone though - you need a modicum of challenge to keep people interested but not too much. Its tough but the Blizzard of old nailed it.. THe new guys they said screw it - make it faceroll. Try any of the sub 60 dungeons that were made in cata..

    Cata was not the bashtion of difficulty that people are making it out to be. It had some road blocks put up in a half hearted attempt to slow the casuals from burning through their limited content.. that's about it..
    Last edited by GuyClinch; 2013-09-29 at 07:56 AM.

  18. #978
    Quote Originally Posted by HeedmySpeed View Post
    So you left out other MMO games because they don't agree with your argument.
    If I chose to factor in every derp random MMORPG in history, the average age-at-decline would drop to a lot less than six years, making Blizzard look like huge geniuses just for doing as well as they have so far. While that would be a fun rhetorical point in terms of sticking it to people like you, it would also be intellectually dishonest. Therefore I instead chose to compare it to its direct predecessors, highly successful mainstream games with lots of cash behind them, relative to their time.

    If you have an alternate theory, one that explains why World of Warcraft was supposed to follow the same business cycle as Eve Online until those damn stupid developers fucked it up, feel free to elucidate. I'll listen. It's going to have to be a pretty outlandish theory though, given that Eve is a quirky indie that flew under the the radar for years, while WoW is a heavily-hyped behemoth.

    But you don't really have one, do you? You just looked at the front page of MMOdata, saw that blurb about Eve still growing after all these years, and wanted to go "neener needer you're wrong about a thing" without taking even a second to consider the context of what the fuck you were talking about.

    And you're saying no matter what Blizzard did they would have the same subscribers left they have today?
    You still believe the design choices had no impact on subscriber turn out because the game was meant to go down this way?
    While design choices can obviously impact subscriber retention, in all but the most extreme cases it's a much slower and more distant impact than grandstanding forum dipshits seem to imagine. Furthermore, while it's certainly possible to chase your customers away if you piss on them hard enough, it's much more difficult to make design decisions that magically keep people from just plain getting bored and quitting after playing the same game for years and years and years.

    It's even more difficult and less realistic to expect any particular design decision to attract lots of brand new players to an old game that they've already been ignoring for years. If they couldn't be won over back when WoW was on South Park and the hype was at its peak, they're sure as hell not going to be won over just because you nerfed raids, or buffed raids, or whatever. They've never played the game and that shit means very little to them.

    If this was all so true why did they even bother flipping the "nerf everything for the mouth breathers" switch?
    Every successful game makes adjustments over time in order to maximize the length of time the average user remains subscribed. But it's a gradual process that involves a lot of experimentation and feedback, and it's almost impossible to tie net subscription changes to particular design decisions when you're an outsider with no internal numbers except for a quarterly report of total subs. If they also published the length in months of the average WoW subscription, armchair quarterbacking would be a hell of a lot easier.

    Your average dipshit forum kid though, they don't want to hear any of that fucking shit. They just wait for the particular point when outgoing finally exceeds incoming and total subscriptions go down for once, and immediately blame whatever the fuck is going on at that specific moment that they happen to dislike.

    For all we know, the length of the average subscription has gone up, and the only reason they're losing subscribers is because they can't find millions of new WoW players to shovel into the system ever year the way they used to. There are, after all, only so many people in the world who will ever give a fuck about World of Warcraft.

    The only way you can even begin to guess at why a particular game is losing subscribers is to compare its trajectory to that of other similar games, and in that regard WoW is doing just fine.

  19. #979
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    No no, I completely agree with you.
    The moment they made dungeons and raids much harder it caused a massive decline in subs.
    When they nerfed it, they lowered the decline.
    And when LFR came, they stopped it.
    For a while..
    It is very unlikely that LFR caused the stop in the loss of subs.
    Quote Originally Posted by BenBos View Post
    GTA 5 has not sold so well on PC and the Multi player version (the one that is measured through Xfire) was not that good.
    Quote Originally Posted by xanzul View Post
    There is no way in hell Siege will last more than 6 months. It just isn't possible.
    Quote Originally Posted by WarlordsofDraenor View Post
    Anti-flying: Myriad of educated arguments as to why flying is detrimental to the game as a whole.
    Pro-flying: I like flying.

  20. #980
    The Lightbringer
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Silvermoon City
    Posts
    3,635
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    They were only stupidly tuned for stupid people. The problem isn't that they're overturned, it's that the playerbase is so bad/lazy that they no longer have patience for any mandatory content that isn't complete faceroll.
    And that is a global trend in game that Blizzard had to follow. Why they suddenly didn't in Cata is beyond my understanding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    LFR only stopped sub drops temporarily because it was something completely new to the game, that alone got old players to resub at least a month just to check it out.
    Maybe, but you can't prove it. What we do know however, is that a lot of players who never saw a raid previously could experience it. Too bad the raid in question was DS

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by NigelGurney View Post
    It is very unlikely that LFR caused the stop in the loss of subs.
    Why is that?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    I think there were some people who just do 5 mans, who saw what the Cata 5 mans were like, and said "I'm outta here".

    I think there were some people who wanted to raid, but saw what the 5 mans were like, and went "the raids are going to be harder than that?!" and then gave up.

    And I think there were some people who made it through into T11, found the raids were unenjoyably difficult, and stopped.

    I think there were also those who were on the borderline, and had guilds collapse out from under them for these reasons, and friends depart, and then left themselves.
    Quite probably, yes. Add to that the guild collapses caused by 10/25 lockout changes, and we got a grim picture -_-

    BC/LK raider ('07-'10)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •