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  1. #1

    [PvP] I think Feral was nerfed too much + constructive suggestions.

    As many predicted Feral nerfs were too severe. In typical Blizzard fashion they handed out seemingly knee-jerk reaction nerfs due to the mass crying from the non-feral community. Any sensible Feral player was ready to admit that while cyclone (and other CC we had) needed fixing they took it too far by making it too clunky to use, and woe betide anyone that tries to cast anything at all vs. a Warrior right now. [Warriors (again, as predicted) are swarming the ladders in true to form OP fashion as Feral did last season. They have excellent damage and burst, great mobility, far too many anti-caster abilities and incredible survivability right now. The one thing they don't really bring is CC. ]

    Unfortunately, as the Feral community is significantly small(er) than other class communities, many excellent suggestions fell on deaf ears, and other classes that did hear simply stuck their fingers in their ears and cried nerf without bothering to engage in argument. While we can sympathise with specs like WW Monk & Enhance, this is about Feral and currently there's no reason to bring a Feral to any arena situation because everything that a Feral will do, a Warrior will do better. The only thing Feral brought over Warrior was CC, and seeing as cyclone is near impossible to get off vs any 1500+ team, there's no reason to bring one to the table.

    What's irksome is that one justification they gave for nerfing all the CC was that they're planning on removing a lot of instant CC from the game. However, there hasn't been any changes to other classes, let alone the folly of giving a melee class a cast time CC.

    However, instead of lamenting about the situation I think that a few things could change for the better with only minor effect on Feral balance. Here are some options were we can choose ONE:


    1. Allow cyclone to be cast in form while the PS buff is active. The buff is still dispellable. (and training the feral was a perfectly viable strategy last season as well, it it's pretty much foolproof this season).

    2. Increase cyclone to 30yd range for feral. The cast time would be the same and Feral expends a lot of mana when casting any spells and healing, so an increase in range only would have a minimal, albeit nice QoL effect.

    3. Allow hibernate to be used on humanoids and made instant via the PS buff. This is the least desirable change as it's another instant CC, however it would be dispellable and breaks instantly on damage.

    4. Allow Nature's Swiftness to be baseline. Once a min instant CC would be hardly game-breaking. This is a really good option (Submitted by Whitepaw - thanks)
    Last edited by gestapo; 2013-09-23 at 08:52 AM. Reason: Included suggestions from responses.

  2. #2
    Just make NS baseline for all druid specs.

    That way, we keep 2 out of 3 nerfs, we help Guardians have some reliable CC against casters and we get a reliable instant CC on a 1 min CD.

  3. #3
    That's a really good option. It gives back some utility without making either spec too powerful seeing as 1min CD is an eternity in pvp.

  4. #4
    actualy they should give instant clone back , cause feral dps atm is low , feral heal low. They buff warriors too much , when i play my feral i feel so bad =(
    They (shtizardd fuack scrapbot .!.,) make ferals like in season 6 , but there wasnt so much interapts and shit wich can stop cast!
    Last edited by realking; 2013-09-23 at 10:40 AM.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by realking View Post
    actualy they should give instant clone back , cause feral dps atm is low , feral heal low. They buff warriors too much , when i play my feral i feel so bad =(
    They (shtizardd fuack scrapbot .!.,) make ferals like in season 6 , but there wasnt so much interapts and shit wich can stop cast!
    same feeling, as I'm so bad and defenceless aginst 2+ without cyclonem or on RBG when ppl asking to cc I'm lost trying to spam my Cyclone on NS and nothing happening >.<

  6. #6
    It's a really boring spec to play now in PvP. I already kinda loathed it after they split feral into two specs, but now I don't see the point. We do damage and..we can move a lot? Cyclone is pretty much out of the question and even if you do get one in it takes too long time to cast compared to the duration and range. Blizzard just don't know what to do with the spec and now we got no CC except a melee stun that can be parried.

    I think cyclone is a retarded spell since it can't be dispelled, so I'd say the suggestion to make hibernate usable on humanoids for ferals sounds really good. Having only feral cyclones dispellable would be a bit to confusing for Blizzard's taste I think. The NS one is good too and would help guardians combat ressing in raids as an extra bonus, but like I said, I don't like cyclone not being able to be dispelled.

  7. #7
    Yes, I like the NS idea a lot - or as you say cyclone being dispellable, but then Feral needs to have it as instant again via PS (on the same 20s cd as before).

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Rioo View Post
    It's a really boring spec to play now in PvP. I already kinda loathed it after they split feral into two specs, but now I don't see the point. We do damage and..we can move a lot? Cyclone is pretty much out of the question and even if you do get one in it takes too long time to cast compared to the duration and range. Blizzard just don't know what to do with the spec and now we got no CC except a melee stun that can be parried.

    I think cyclone is a retarded spell since it can't be dispelled, so I'd say the suggestion to make hibernate usable on humanoids for ferals sounds really good. Having only feral cyclones dispellable would be a bit to confusing for Blizzard's taste I think. The NS one is good too and would help guardians combat ressing in raids as an extra bonus, but like I said, I don't like cyclone not being able to be dispelled.
    Making Hibernate usable on Humanoids would just be copying Polymorph - except that a Feral's Hibernate would always be instant (PS proc). When you couple that with an 8 sec duration and a much longer range than Cyclone, that kind of instant CC with no CD would have to be nerfed.

    Cyclone is unique and elegant. It's not dispellable, but only have a 6 sec duration. It has a short range. Coupled with NS for a 6 sec instant cast with a 1 min CD is actually pretty balanced imo. Well, also in Blizzard's opinion, since they gave exactly that to Moonkin and Resto.

    - - - Updated - - -

    And so they buff our damage, instead of reverting the nerfs to utility:

    Druid (Forums / Skills / Talent Calculator)
    General
    Rip damage has been increased by 20%.
    Incoming cries of "AMG, big Rip crits are 1-shotting me. Nerf!!11!!!" in 3 - 2 - 1...

  9. #9
    Yeah, saw the Rip dmg increase and thought the same thing. Unfortunately, looks like a PVE change, so it's looking even less likely that they'll sacrifice damage to give us back utility/cc. If anything blizzard won't touch our dmg for PVE reasons, which means all they can do is nerf our CC, which they went too far with.

  10. #10
    4. Allow Nature's Swiftness to be baseline. Once a min instant CC would be hardly game-breaking. This is a really good option
    They should do this, all the other ideas were bad.

    Unfortunately, as the Feral community is significantly small(er) than other class communities
    Thats not how Blizzard balances the game, they don't really listen to how much people whine. You are best off spamming Holinka on twitter for him to do something. Ferals were THE Flavour of the Month throughout much of Cata and Season 12, to say the community is small is just untrue, 100s of people rerolled feral due them being ridiculously OP last season.

    Having played feral throughout WOTLK, I was perfectly happy with feral being a support class.

    The spec itself is gimmicky (run speed, spam shifting roots) and irritating/boring to play against. The introduction of insta-clone lowered the skill-cap of ferals so much its unbelievable, unfortunately the direction the game has been taking lends itself to the belief that every class needs some sort of dumb OP mechanic to be viable.

    The removal of insta-clone will make the bad FOTM ferals worse, and the ferals that have played since WOTLK better. Many ferals prefer being able to free-cast clone as it lends itself to double cloning someones trinket/ cloning someone low hp for pressure and a variety of other good plays.

    There is currently a feral at Rank 4 in 3s on U.S, and top 10 in both 2s and 3s on EU. If they actually become underrepresented and not viable, this thread may have some relevance.

    Certain comps will be viable with ferals, like how certain comps are viable with every class. Just because feral isn't Top 3 melee for the first time since Season 8 doesn't mean something is wrong. The playstyle will change for the better.

  11. #11
    Before the patch came out, I was hoping Blizzard would remove one of the three major nerfs to Feral crowd control. The three major CC nerfs being:

    • Treant stun removed.
    • Pred Swiftness Cyclone removed.
    • Nature's Swiftness removed.

    With any of these 3 remaining in the Feral toolset, I believe they would be considerably more viable than they are right now. By themselves, none of the 3 aforementioned crowd controls are even remotely overpowered, as each has cons to match its pros.

    - Treant stun, seemingly the most complained about crowd control, actually had a somewhat long cooldown for it's duraton (20s CD for a 3s stun) and it's main strength was actually it's main weakness. Treant stun was infact a stun - which meant that using treant stuns on any target meant that they were (in a way) immune to being swapped too for the length of the stun DR. Treant stuns were also renown for breaking CCs.

    - Pred Swiftness Clones are strong, but predictable as hell if you're stood at max range and a generally unreliable CC - as one or two dodge or parrys in a row could ruin a CC chain. The proc is also dispellable for 3 out of the 6 healer specs. Using Pred Swiftness to clone also means that it isn't being used on healing.

    - Nature's Swiftness, a more reliable and less predictable form of CC, but countered by its long CD. It's also a huge survivability CD when used with HotW so any NS clones are 1 less heal the enemy team has to worry about.


    There is plenty of ways to bring Ferals back up to being competitive, I don't think it's impossible that Blizzard would notice their mistake and undo one of the nerfs they have made. An interesting idea that Gestapo mentioned is this:

    3. Allow hibernate to be used on humanoids and made instant via the PS buff. This is the least desirable change as it's another instant CC, however it would be dispellable and breaks instantly on damage.
    I don't believe that this itself is a good fix, but a talent that makes Hibernate usable on Humanoids with a halved duration could be. Similar to how the Paladin talent alters turn evil, Ferals could have a talent that makes Hibernate a usable magic CC. Hibernate is also on the most common DR tree (freezing trap, polymorph, sap, repentance, paralysis, hex) which means it wouldn't change much for comps such as FMP, Junglecleave and Feral/Ret. The reason I believe it should have a 4 second duration instead of an 8 second duration is because the talent needs a con, something that people will think about using. "Should I hibernate the healer when my mage might be able to get a polymorph off?", etc.

    Said talent could replace ursol's vortex or treants - as both are hardly ever taken in PvP, PvE, RBGs or levelling.


    Edit: I'd also like to mention that I am more than happy hardcasting clones if they don't have a CD, but going in and out of form to cast clones and getting repeatedly stopped isn't an enjoyable playstyle. Even if Cyclone was castable in Cat Form I would be happy.
    Last edited by Snuggli; 2013-09-24 at 04:42 PM.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Champxoxo View Post
    Thats not how Blizzard balances the game, they don't really listen to how much people whine. You are best off spamming Holinka on twitter for him to do something.
    How is that any better? So, instead of listening to the many constructive threads on suggested fixes, that went into great detail, we're trying to spam Holinka and compete for his attention? This seems even less desirable than the official forum route.

    Quote Originally Posted by Champxoxo View Post
    Ferals were THE Flavour of the Month throughout much of Cata and Season 12, to say the community is small is just untrue, 100s of people rerolled feral due them being ridiculously OP last season.
    There were plenty other Fotm classes throughout that time period that were much better than Feral. Other than the start of that one season where bleed's were bugged and doing insane damage and the most recent season, Feral was not nearly as OP as other classes. See BM for last two seasons, see Rogues in the season before last, Mages, Warriors at MoP launch. Anyway, I don't think any of that should factor into this discussion and what Feral is at the present.

    Quote Originally Posted by Champxoxo View Post
    Having played feral throughout WOTLK, I was perfectly happy with feral being a support class.
    I've played Feral since Vanilla when it wasn't much more than a laughing stock and I enjoyed the support-ish role, but I think MANY people will disagree with you and the majority want Feral to be able to hold it's own. In the current game 'support class' is too hard to balance for Blizzard as it ends up being either too weak or too powerful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Champxoxo View Post
    The spec itself is gimmicky (run speed, spam shifting roots) and irritating/boring to play against.
    I think this is just personal bias, and definitely personal opinion. I may think frost mages are gimmicky, or BM hunters are annoying to play against. WW monks are incredibly frustrating to play against, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't get some attention.


    Quote Originally Posted by Champxoxo View Post
    The introduction of insta-clone lowered the skill-cap of ferals so much its unbelievable, unfortunately the direction the game has been taking lends itself to the belief that every class needs some sort of dumb OP mechanic to be viable.
    That's debatable. I think things like Incarnation and cooldown stacking made the Feral skill-cap lower. I loved the Wotlk playstyle and it was the most balanced arena expansion, in my opinion, but doesn't mean we're headed back in that direction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Champxoxo View Post
    The removal of insta-clone will make the bad FOTM ferals worse, and the ferals that have played since WOTLK better. Many ferals prefer being able to free-cast clone as it lends itself to double cloning someones trinket/ cloning someone low hp for pressure and a variety of other good plays.
    That's anecdotal evidence. I don't mind free-casting clones, and I used to do it often before PS was introduced. However, we have so many more interrupts and ways to stop casting now that no 3v3 team with half a brain will ever let you cast a clone at a 20yd range. In addition to the plethora of ways to stop casting, as soon as you pop out of form you open yourself up to being hexed, polyd, stunned in caster, etc.

    If the range was 30yd then you've actually got a chance. Not to keep reminding everyone, but we're a MELEE class. And we're having to CAST our CC. It just does NOT work in the current game. Anyone would be dense to not realize that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Champxoxo View Post
    There is currently a feral at Rank 4 in 3s on U.S, and top 10 in both 2s and 3s on EU. If they actually become underrepresented and not viable, this thread may have some relevance.
    Abn was Rank1 as a arcane mage. By your logic Arcane is too powerful as well. Certain players are exceptional despite the class they play. Some players just gel with certain classes. The first week of arena is not really an indication of class strength at all, when the PTR was out for months and we had a better idea of what was to come.

    This thread has relevance. Definitely more than your post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Champxoxo View Post
    Certain comps will be viable with ferals, like how certain comps are viable with every class. Just because feral isn't Top 3 melee for the first time since Season 8 doesn't mean something is wrong. The playstyle will change for the better.
    Certain comps will be viable with any class, depending on the player, a certain amount of luck, and the actual counter comps you may or may not face. It doesn't a make a good argument, though. Your anti-feral bias may delude you into thinking that Feral was top 3 melee for every season since 8. Seems like you're set in your ways so there's really no point in you being in this thread.



    Quote Originally Posted by Snuggli View Post

    I don't believe that this itself is a good fix, but a talent that makes Hibernate usable on Humanoids with a halved duration could be. Similar to how the Paladin talent alters turn evil, Ferals could have a talent that makes Hibernate a usable magic CC. Hibernate is also on the most common DR tree (freezing trap, polymorph, sap, repentance, paralysis, hex) which means it wouldn't change much for comps such as FMP, Junglecleave and Feral/Ret. The reason I believe it should have a 4 second duration instead of an 8 second duration is because the talent needs a con, something that people will think about using. "Should I hibernate the healer when my mage might be able to get a polymorph off?", etc.

    Said talent could replace ursol's vortex or treants - as both are hardly ever taken in PvP, PvE, RBGs or levelling.


    Edit: I'd also like to mention that I am more than happy hardcasting clones if they don't have a CD, but going in and out of form to cast clones and getting repeatedly stopped isn't an enjoyable playstyle. Even if Cyclone was castable in Cat Form I would be happy.
    Other than bringing NS back, that would be a really good suggestion. Ursol's is indeed terrible and your suggestion forces the player to think about the DR risk as well. I don't mind hardcasting clones except that the 20yd range is abysmal. It needs to be 30yd at the very least and maybe a lower mana cost for Feral. I'd love for clone to be castable while in form, but seems like a lot of people think even that is too strong (which it really isn't).

  13. #13
    Over 9000! apepi's Avatar
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    How about PS allows you to cast Cyclone in cat form while moving?
    Time...line? Time isn't made out of lines. It is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round. ~ Caboose

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by apepi View Post
    How about PS allows you to cast Cyclone in cat form while moving?
    I think they were toying with the idea on the PTR since we could do it, but they seem to have scrapped it at the end. It's a shame because it would still be dispellable, have a cast time and still only be a 20yd range. Could even still have the 20s cd and it'd be balanced.

  15. #15
    I like the hybernate idea, but if it is a talent, it should not be halved, dispelable + break on damage and no glyph to remove this limitation is aleady enough.
    I also liked the idea to change our 4 pieces bonus to instant clone with cooldown (could even be bigger than it was), this would reduce our damage a little but give back our controll.

    Right now things are terrible, me and my friend (pala healer) finished last season at ~2040 in 2s. We even beat the guys who were rank 3 in 2s last season (priest + feral).

    Now we are stuck at ~1800. I don't believe we won against any decent healer + dk / healer + warrior yet and they swarm ratings above 1750.
    Last edited by Knolan; 2013-09-25 at 10:14 PM.

  16. #16
    I feel like the problem with the hibernate idea is that you're adding something to the CC table that wasn't there before. Yes, it shares DR with lots of things, but people will still complain.

    I think Feral needs to be able to cast cyclone while moving, in cat form, where cyclone will be 20yd range and go back on a cd. Maybe 15s?
    If not it needs to be able to be cast from a 30yd range with a mana reduction for Feral.

  17. #17
    I think allowing them to cast it in form, 20 yd and giving back the cooldown isn't too bad.
    They can also give back tree stun instead of giving cyclone a tiny fix.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by gestapo View Post
    3. Allow hibernate to be used on humanoids and made instant via the PS buff. This is the least desirable change as it's another instant CC, however it would be dispellable and breaks instantly on damage.
    Coming from somebody who doesn't play with, or as, a Feral Druid I think I like this change the most out of the ones you listed. 30 yard Cyclone range wouldn't change anything. Nature's Swiftness baseline for everyone doesn't seem really natural, and I think that Blizzard wants the specs to feel very different.

    Hibernate would be another instant CC, but if it breaks instantly and can be dispelled (and I'm assuming it'd share DR with things like Sheep, maybe fear, I have no idea what Hibernate DRs with currently) I really don't think it'd be that terrible. Cyclone being instant was bad because Cyclone has absolutely no counter aside from Trinket. As long as there's a counter to it, I have no problem with instant CC for the most part. It can be annoying, but Feral has always had instant CC, at least this way it could be dispelled.

    The only way to make Feral viable (from an arena standpoint) is to give them back instant clone/hibernate, or to make their damage insane. And that would just be broken with certain cleave teams, so I feel like they need to give back the CC to fix it at all.

  19. #19
    Stood in the Fire Kals's Avatar
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    Damage shouldn't be a problem once we're in grievous; the weapon itself is almost a 1200 WDPS increase, which is massive.

    In terms of CC I don't think a casted clone would be as big a deal if the state of the game was more towards BC or even to some extent Wrath where there isn't 3000 different kinds of CC going on and 200 ways to stop clone from completing.

    I'd be ok with treants getting stuns again, it'd kinda let us get clones off the same way we have to in 2s right now (stun/cc <insert class>, clone his partner). The major reason people seemed to have a problem with treants was the insane range and being off the GCD.

    I do partially like the idea to increase the range on clone as well, I've seen a few ferals running with the clone glyph in 3s just so they don't have to run into africa and make it 100% obvious they're going for a clone just to get it lined.

    Overall I kind of agree NS would be the best choice, it's not too much to ask that once a minute you can set up a mostly-reliable CC chain imo. Also gives us a "life saving" HotW option again, since sometimes CW just isn't enough if they're already too low, its major setback imo is it can't start healing 'til they get hit.

    Just my 2 cents. I like dis thread. You may all have a waffle for constructive awesomeness. (>^.^)>#

  20. #20
    Scarab Lord Roose's Avatar
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    PS cyclones were not as bad when you had to shift to cast. You had the risk of being caught in caster form, stunned and blown up. This not shifting to cast crap is what made it too much.

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