Thread: Balance so far

Page 1 of 2
1
2
LastLast
  1. #1

    Balance so far

    Its quite early in the season to make comments about class balance in pvp.
    None the less there are a few things that stick out.

    3s actually seem quite balanced, although we do seem to run into alot of
    TSG comps above 2.1 mmr and we can hardly ever beat them.

    2s seems alot less balanced (as always I guess)
    But there really isnt much you can do vs good holypriest + war/uhDK comps, they just win.

    So my thoughts:
    Holypriests might need a bit weaker heals and an increase on the offensive chatise disorient to lower their utility in 2s.
    On the other hand ive noticed they go OOM fast in 3s so they might need a buff in that departement.
    Dks and warriors have too much dmg and utility, especially vs casters..
    DoubleGrip mindfreeze petstun necros AMS IBF desacratedground strangulate/asphyxiate
    Charge pummel disruptingshout massreflect reflect fear
    This combined with their insane dmg output is too much....

    Warriors will also get even more out of control when everyone starts getting more grievous items.
    They scale more with gear then other classes due to the design of rage.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by biggischkris View Post
    Warriors will also get even more out of control when everyone starts getting more grievous items.
    They scale more with gear then other classes due to the design of rage.
    This made me think...

    My understanding is that Warriors are the class that Scale worst of all classes with gear except for weapon.

    I see threads all over the internet where people complain about warriors, but as people get gear they will be "less good" because they scale very very bad with gear.

  3. #3
    Mongoloid warriors already running rampant.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by SetoD View Post
    My understanding is that Warriors are the class that Scale worst of all classes with gear except for weapon.
    Wrong mate, warrior dmg is highly dependant on rage generation.
    Rage is generated from a few mechanics, some spells just have a base rage generation,
    but mainly rage comes from the dmg that is dealt, and the amount of rage that is being generated
    scales with the amount of dmg dealt.
    So more gear = more dmg = more rage = even more dmg = even more rage = even MOAR DMG RAWR

    Thats why warriors scale very hard with gear and that is why they will be insanely OP in full grievous if
    they remain in their current state.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by biggischkris View Post
    Wrong mate, warrior dmg is highly dependant on rage generation.
    Rage is generated from a few mechanics, some spells just have a base rage generation,
    but mainly rage comes from the dmg that is dealt, and the amount of rage that is being generated
    scales with the amount of dmg dealt.
    So more gear = more dmg = more rage = even more dmg = even more rage = even MOAR DMG RAWR

    Thats why warriors scale very hard with gear and that is why they will be insanely OP in full grievous if
    they remain in their current state.
    Wrong.
    Rage was heavily normalized in MoP (cata?) to the point where my warrior gains 12/13 rage per white hit, regardless of if I'm wearing my full gear or completely naked. The only way for warriors to generate more rage today is to stack up on haste so that you get those white hits quicker, but even then, both crit and mastery are worth more.

    If we would've still been in TBC or WotLK, you'd be correct however.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by biggischkris View Post
    Wrong mate, warrior dmg is highly dependant on rage generation.
    Rage is generated from a few mechanics, some spells just have a base rage generation,
    but mainly rage comes from the dmg that is dealt, and the amount of rage that is being generated
    scales with the amount of dmg dealt.
    So more gear = more dmg = more rage = even more dmg = even more rage = even MOAR DMG RAWR

    Thats why warriors scale very hard with gear and that is why they will be insanely OP in full grievous if
    they remain in their current state.
    Maybe if you were playing in TBC. Cata normalized Rage (http://www.wowhead.com/news=151357/r...n-in-cataclysm).

    My only issue with Warriors right now is their fear not breaking. I just assume that's a bug that will be "eventually" fixed.
    "Clearly every aspect of one's life, from financial stability to social popularity, to sexual prowess can be boiled down to 4 numbers: One's Arena rating" ~ Xandamere

  7. #7
    I think things feel pretty good to start off the season, I guess we'll see how it goes when everyone is fully geared.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Reilu View Post
    I think things feel pretty good to start off the season, I guess we'll see how it goes when everyone is fully geared.
    Since globalling people in 5 set Grievous + Weapon is funny.
    Yep 1 week and some retards already have 6 Grievous items. Funny how the ladder is spoiled again by people who abused the conquest cap.2

  9. #9
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Vancouver, Canada
    Posts
    4,952
    Quote Originally Posted by Gormtex View Post
    Wrong.
    Rage was heavily normalized in MoP (cata?) to the point where my warrior gains 12/13 rage per white hit, regardless of if I'm wearing my full gear or completely naked. The only way for warriors to generate more rage today is to stack up on haste so that you get those white hits quicker, but even then, both crit and mastery are worth more.

    If we would've still been in TBC or WotLK, you'd be correct however.
    Ok, but rage generation does scale with haste - if not damage - which means that increased stats (including haste) from 496 to 522 will result in increased rage generation for warriors: he's not wrong. You can say that that benefit will be marginal or trivial - but not all classes gain increased resource generation out of increased stats: warriors do.

    I posted in Snuggli's awesome thread (highly recommended) about my predictions for season balance, but to quickly recap that - while I expect warrior damage to continue to scale very well throughout the tier with increased gear (not outscale everyone else, but the idea that they scale poorly with gear is a misnomer) - I also expect their representation to decline because it is currently based on the synergy of defensive stance + 75% resilience + second wind: as burst rises, this synergy will become less effective.
    Youtube ~ Yvaelle ~ Twitter

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    Ok, but rage generation does scale with haste - if not damage - which means that increased stats (including haste) from 496 to 522 will result in increased rage generation for warriors: he's not wrong. You can say that that benefit will be marginal or trivial - but not all classes gain increased resource generation out of increased stats: warriors do.
    To say that haste will be the stat to be worried about is absurd. True, warriors will gain slightly more resources, but so does
    Rogues and ferals with their faster energy refills
    Ret pallies with lower CD crusader strike resulting in more holy power
    Death knights with faster rune recharges
    Hunters with faster focus regen(?)/cobra shots
    Enhancement shamans with more Maelstrom weapons (and possibly something else as well, I'm not too familiar with shamans)
    and I'm sure WW monks benefit from haste in some additional way as well beside faster white attacks (energy/brew?)

    Not to mention pretty much every single attack from casters benefit from haste, be it shorter cast or shorter GCD.

    You can't single out a class and say that they'll be getting out of hand while forgetting that most if not all other classes has something that provides nearly the exact same bonus.

    I won't say that warriors will be right in line when it comes to balance, they're certainly looking very strong so far, and whether or not warriors scale with gear overall better or worse than any other class I don't know, what I'm saying is that IF they turn out to be too strong at the end of the season, haste will not be the thing that tipped the scale.
    Last edited by Gormtex; 2013-09-24 at 01:29 AM.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Gormtex View Post
    To say that haste will be the stat to be worried about is absurd. True, warriors will gain slightly more resources, but so does
    Rogues and ferals with their faster energy refills
    Ret pallies with lower CD crusader strike resulting in more holy power
    Death knights with faster rune recharges
    Hunters with faster focus regen(?)/cobra shots
    Enhancement shamans with more Maelstrom weapons (and possibly something else as well, I'm not too familiar with shamans)
    and I'm sure WW monks benefit from haste in some additional way as well beside faster white attacks (energy/brew?)

    Not to mention pretty much every single attack from casters benefit from haste, be it shorter cast or shorter GCD.

    You can't single out a class and say that they'll be getting out of hand while forgetting that most if not all other classes has something that provides nearly the exact same bonus.

    I won't say that warriors will be right in line when it comes to balance, they're certainly looking very strong so far, and whether or not warriors scale with gear overall better or worse than any other class I don't know, what I'm saying is that IF they turn out to be too strong at the end of the season, haste will not be the thing that tipped the scale.
    This. Haste is next to useless for warriors in pvp, the only reason they stack in after crit in pve is more rage for AOE. Mastery is also next to useless for warriors, possibly the worst mastery of any pvp dps spec. Most warriors in pvp go for expertise over haste and mastery so they don't get stuff avoided. Crit is great for them and so is weapon damage, but everything else including strength scales far worse than everyone else. Warriors will only get weaker as the gear goes up.

    Warriors need to feel strong with alot of personal control and damage. They dont have any heals, they dont have any ranged abilities, they don't generate resources being off-target like everyone else, they are purely an in your face lock-down and high sustained damage class. So yea, when a warrior is on you, it should be something you need to worry about.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Cirayne24 View Post
    Maybe if you were playing in TBC. Cata normalized Rage (http://www.wowhead.com/news=151357/r...n-in-cataclysm).

    My only issue with Warriors right now is their fear not breaking. I just assume that's a bug that will be "eventually" fixed.
    Don't count on it. It's been like that since 5.2 and there have been numerous complaints about it and, if I remember correctly, a few dismissals of the issues by the blues saying "we haven't been able to recreate the scenario" when most players have seen it multiple times.

    And it isn't only warrior fear but all fears. I've been chaos bolted TWICE in one fear. No lag or anything.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    Ok, but rage generation does scale with haste - if not damage - which means that increased stats (including haste) from 496 to 522 will result in increased rage generation for warriors: he's not wrong. You can say that that benefit will be marginal or trivial - but not all classes gain increased resource generation out of increased stats: warriors do.

    I posted in Snuggli's awesome thread (highly recommended) about my predictions for season balance, but to quickly recap that - while I expect warrior damage to continue to scale very well throughout the tier with increased gear (not outscale everyone else, but the idea that they scale poorly with gear is a misnomer) - I also expect their representation to decline because it is currently based on the synergy of defensive stance + 75% resilience + second wind: as burst rises, this synergy will become less effective.
    Warrior rage generation will be effected by gear the same as it has been since 5.0. That is to say NOT AT ALL NOTICEABLY. The spec scales so badly that we had to see some rather massive buffs to our bread and butter spells to finally be pushed up to still-beneath-middle of the pack in dps outside of insane cleave damage.

    Warrior representation WILL go down. There's no doubt about it. The damage is STILL not anything amazing because a lot of other specs can out burst and/or out sustain warrior damage while not even being on target. Warriors remain as the class with the weakest grip in the game. Warriors will be back to speccing shockwave and avatar and piercing howl once again once people are in grievous gear simply to help stay on target/maintain a semblance of burst comparative to things like ret, enhance and most casters.
    Last edited by Flaks; 2013-09-24 at 03:06 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by High Overlord Saurfang
    "I am he who watches they. I am the fist of retribution. That which does quell the recalcitrant. Dare you defy the Warchief? Dare you face my merciless judgement?"
    i7-860 @2.8GHz | Radeon HD 7770 | 8GB DDR3-1333MHz | Corsair CX 430W |

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    The damage is STILL not anything amazing because a lot of other specs can out burst and/or out sustain warrior damage while not even being on target.

    i'm just quoting to say 'i saw you say this' later. carry on.

    spoiler alert: LOL.

    we're still friends Flaks.. but LOL.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shahada View Post
    The devs aren't stupid.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Lulbalance View Post
    i'm just quoting to say 'i saw you say this' later. carry on.

    spoiler alert: LOL.

    we're still friends Flaks.. but LOL.
    I'll hold you to it simply because the only difference from PTR to now is increased MS damage. Ret has shat on warrior burst since WotLK. Fire mages, ele/enh shaman, destro/demo locks are still stronger on the burst end of things as well. Mut rogues, uh dks, ferals, ww monks, spriests and aff locks all make warrior sustained look weak. This won't be changing.
    Quote Originally Posted by High Overlord Saurfang
    "I am he who watches they. I am the fist of retribution. That which does quell the recalcitrant. Dare you defy the Warchief? Dare you face my merciless judgement?"
    i7-860 @2.8GHz | Radeon HD 7770 | 8GB DDR3-1333MHz | Corsair CX 430W |

  15. #15
    I was hoping there would be one season moonkin would be good... but i was wrong hunter are doing more damage than me with autoattacks... to the point where a backpedalling hunter in bgs is hard to kill. Kinda just gave up on pvp balance a long time ago, since they still have several specs that no one will take.

    My dots tick for ~1k and biggest hitting ability is ~30k with procs up. I can't kill anything and have no control outside of clone. I can spam roots on melee but if they are any good at all roots are nearly useless. Hybrid healing is actually less than pure healing atm so ironic...
    Last edited by Aboubacar; 2013-09-24 at 07:03 AM.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    I'll hold you to it simply because the only difference from PTR to now is increased MS damage. Ret has shat on warrior burst since WotLK. Fire mages, ele/enh shaman, destro/demo locks are still stronger on the burst end of things as well. Mut rogues, uh dks, ferals, ww monks, spriests and aff locks all make warrior sustained look weak. This won't be changing.
    I don't understand where you get that destro is strong from? i mean a 3s cast that hits for 45k? that is if we have generated enough embers
    Quote Originally Posted by fizzbob7
    your macro.....***ness

    your inability to just shut up and drink instead of telling us you're gonna drink then 5 seconds later drinking, is also ***ness"....."
    it's as annoying as the tank who asks READY? after every trash pull.

    Just as annoying as these threads? AmIright?
    ~Bahumut5

  17. #17
    Pandaren Monk
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Illinois, USA
    Posts
    1,951
    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    I'll hold you to it simply because the only difference from PTR to now is increased MS damage. Ret has shat on warrior burst since WotLK. Fire mages, ele/enh shaman, destro/demo locks are still stronger on the burst end of things as well. Mut rogues, uh dks, ferals, ww monks, spriests and aff locks all make warrior sustained look weak. This won't be changing.
    Agree with you usually, but have you seen Bladestorm this patch? I run Hpal/warrior 2's and its pretty damn out of hand. If the healer is CC'd with no out, their partner kind of just dies.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by fappasaurus View Post
    I was hoping there would be one season moonkin would be good... but i was wrong hunter are doing more damage than me with autoattacks... to the point where a backpedalling hunter in bgs is hard to kill. Kinda just gave up on pvp balance a long time ago, since they still have several specs that no one will take.

    My dots tick for ~1k and biggest hitting ability is ~30k with procs up. I can't kill anything and have no control outside of clone. I can spam roots on melee but if they are any good at all roots are nearly useless. Hybrid healing is actually less than pure healing atm so ironic...
    You aren't fully geared, then. Boomkin isn't AMAZING, but its pretty damn survivable and clone/root/beam is still nice control. My starsurge crits are still about 90k during CD's and pvp trinket procced, so its usually more like 40-50k non-crits. Also the dots usually tick for 6-8k. Maybe you are seeing those numbers outside of Eclipses? Personally, though, I'm going feral this season (was going to Resto, but have an hpal atm.)

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUntsAhts View Post
    Agree with you usually, but have you seen Bladestorm this patch? I run Hpal/warrior 2's and its pretty damn out of hand. If the healer is CC'd with no out, their partner kind of just dies.

    - - - Updated - - -



    You aren't fully geared, then. Boomkin isn't AMAZING, but its pretty damn survivable and clone/root/beam is still nice control. My starsurge crits are still about 90k during CD's and pvp trinket procced, so its usually more like 40-50k non-crits. Also the dots usually tick for 6-8k. Maybe you are seeing those numbers outside of Eclipses? Personally, though, I'm going feral this season (was going to Resto, but have an hpal atm.)
    Your starfire are hitting as much as my CBs around 70k with Cds and 45 without. Dots ticking for 4k
    Quote Originally Posted by fizzbob7
    your macro.....***ness

    your inability to just shut up and drink instead of telling us you're gonna drink then 5 seconds later drinking, is also ***ness"....."
    it's as annoying as the tank who asks READY? after every trash pull.

    Just as annoying as these threads? AmIright?
    ~Bahumut5

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Kilari View Post
    I don't understand where you get that destro is strong from? i mean a 3s cast that hits for 45k? that is if we have generated enough embers
    CB never hits less than 60k if victim doesn't have defensives up. Get gear maybe.

  20. #20
    Balance is fine aslong as you play warrior

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •