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  1. #21
    High Overlord Auk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mionelol View Post
    Parry gives parryhaste over dodge which gives nothing, so Parry should nearly always be rated higher than dodge unless you get into ridiculously high DRs. Strength also gives parryhaste as well on top of AP.

    1 STR = 1 crit doesn't seem particularly wrong. You rate the gems higher because you get 2 crit for 1 STR, so effectively the gems are twice as good, so I absolutely do not see anything wrong with 1 STR = 1 Crit at all.

    That being said, yes, the sim is not working as intended, if all 3 results come from the exact same parameters.
    I was under the impression that parryhaste was a thing of the past for both bosses and players. Just tested it and you're absolutely right, pretty big oversight on my part. That said, strength still doesn't scale much with vengeance and at some point secondary stats are going to overtake it. Gems of course are a no brainer just due to budget but trinkets are more interesting.

    As far as I'm aware SimCraft is the only publicly available resource for Blood DPS simulation at the moment and that doesn't seem to be working correctly at all, at least for stat weights. The only other work that I've seen on Blood DPS weights is here: http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t130560-...5/#post2309031. I can't speak for it's accuracy but those weights are more in line with what I would expect at high levels of vengeance.

  2. #22
    Glad to see some discussion started. I agree that the initial weights I saw when testing this patch surprised me. I was one of the people that geared for ~25% haste at the end of last tier, and the new mechanics in 5.4 caused me to take a look at all of this.

    I agree that the sim results are strange. In the latest version if simcraft, I am getting similar and wildly varying results with both my action list and yours. I am wondering if the key to this is the fact that our time spent Waiting is almost nil. If the sim is programmed to (correctly) not allow the time spent waiting go negative, then there may be tons of little jumps and dips in the value of haste as the action priority gets shifted towards higher-damage abilities so that actions do not exceed available GCDs.

    Crit vs. STR is a pretty easy comparison to make, because we know the AP scaling for the damage of all our abilities, and crit is essentially a simple multiplier to ability damage. Crit has a huge effect on damage at high AP levels, whereas adding more AP does not. Strength has a few more effects on damage by increasing Parryhaste and increasing the uptime on Riposte (due to more Parry) as mentioned above, but I don't think that should contribute to damage as much as Simcraft is suggesting.

  3. #23
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    I wouldn't necessarily worry about the amount of avoidance needed to keep riposte up, it's essentially up forever as long as you're tanking.

    I do wish however that it lasted longer, it really sucks on tank swap fights that last for more than 20 seconds.

  4. #24
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    so, would parry/dodge gems make any sense?I mean in yellow slots (orange is the gem )
    Last edited by goltnum9; 2013-09-26 at 07:58 AM.

  5. #25
    If you're already high enough on mastery then maybe.
    Armories:
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  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by goltnum9 View Post
    so, would parry/dodge gems make any sense?I mean in orange slots
    red - 320 parry
    yellow - 160 parry/160 dodge
    blue - 160 parry/160hit or 120 stam

  7. #27
    Any chance of explaining what this parryhaste is?(or a link to an explanation) I have gone to a full avoidance build but used the diminishing returns macro to keep my dodge and parry balanced. The only problem I had was it felt like my runes were occasionally taking forever to come off cd so I want to pick up a little haste to compensate for that. Maybe once I get the 4 set it won't be so much of a problem.

  8. #28
    Parry haste reduces the time until your next attack after parrying an attack.

    And well checked again on my warrior seems like parry really reduces my swing timer from 2.2 to anything as low as 1.4 depending on when the parry happened o0 and there I thought blizzard said they were going to remove parry haste when they made parry and dodge equal o0

    But still that effect should be pretty minor since that's like .5% melee attack speed for every 1% of parry or something.

    Btw. is there any way to only show melee hits in the WoL log browser?
    Last edited by Nillo; 2013-09-27 at 08:41 AM.
    Armories:
    Pally: Chiaki
    Dk: Telare
    Warrior: Irlida

  9. #29
    Concerning Str gemming I believe it is probably the most effective way to raise floor effects on a Blood DK's AP. Granted, yes: most of our AP will come from vengeance, but having a higher AP floor via strength - while also granting pretty efficient parry rating - can make a difference in damage throughput during off-tank or low-vengeance intervals. Admittedly I do not know if it is "worth it," but I believe that is what the justification may be.

    As for the power of parry keep in mind, if I'm understanding parry-haste correctly, we see more of a speed benefit from it than our riposte brethren warriors since we use slower 2h weapons.
    Last edited by Chopsifer; 2013-09-27 at 04:23 PM. Reason: Cut oversimplification of parry RP gains.

  10. #30
    Btw. is there any way to only show melee hits in the WoL log browser?
    Try this in the Expression Editor:
    (fullType = SWING_DAMAGE OR fullType = SWING_MISSED) AND (sourceName = "Your name here" OR targetName = "Your name here")

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Chopsifer View Post
    Concerning Str gemming I believe it is probably the most effective way to raise floor effects on a Blood DK's AP. Granted, yes: most of our AP will come from vengeance, but having a higher AP floor via strength - while also granting pretty efficient parry rating - can make a difference in damage throughput during off-tank or low-vengeance intervals. Admittedly I do not know if it is "worth it," but I believe that is what the justification may be.
    It's not worth it. Go download the spreadsheet I posted earlier in the thread and look at the effects of adding the same amounts of AP and crit rating on each of our abilities. Even at only 40k AP, the only abilities that scale better with AP vs. crit are diseases, Death Siphon, and DnD, and not by much. Everything scales better with crit once our AP gets up to tanking levels.

  12. #32
    ok so just to put a simple note here, bis trinkets from SoO? garrosh trinket (static stam, on use crit) is bis for a blood dk? this is what im getting told

  13. #33
    High Overlord Auk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdumb View Post
    ok so just to put a simple note here, bis trinkets from SoO? garrosh trinket (static stam, on use crit) is bis for a blood dk? this is what im getting told
    It's situational, the only trinket I would consider BiS is Vial because it's really useful but even then, I'm sure there's situations where you can swap it out for a DPS trinket.

  14. #34
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    Because of how they engineered the DPS trinkets this tier, they really aren't that good for us. Skeers is about the only one that has somewhat use for us as far as DPS trinket goes. The others are DPS specific or only proc for DPS, so there value is limited. Luckily traditional tank trinkets are actually good this tier. The one from protectors is far more useful than it might seem and the one from Malkorok is absolutely beast mode. I suppose the one from Garrosh is good too, but I gave it to our feral druid first because crit is an actual survival stat for htem.

  15. #35
    What's wrong with Thok's tail tip?

    And I really can't see what's so great about the Garrosh trinket for a tank that gets nothing out of crit.
    Last edited by Nillo; 2013-10-06 at 02:40 PM.
    Armories:
    Pally: Chiaki
    Dk: Telare
    Warrior: Irlida

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    If you're already high enough on mastery then maybe.
    I've been looking for this answer everywhere. What is considered "high enough" mastery? I'm doing the Hit/Exp > Mastery Build because I'm having threat issues on trash and adds. Since I'm hit/exp capped, and am sitting at like 250% mastery raid buffed. Since I feel like may be too much! lol.

    There is a lot of talk on here, wow forums, elitest jerks about different builds. So I was looking at some of the Offensive builds to help with raid DPS. Our Warrior Tank is just destroying me now in DPS. I have solid faith in my healers, so I'm not worried about having crazy big shields anymore. Most of the time our progression wipes come from DPS dying to stupid stuff, or not having enough DPS on fights.

    Since I'm a MMO Champ forum noob, my character is Epicinsanity on Zuljin. As of 10/6/13, I'm not gemmed, or enchanted on a few pieces just didn't have time to optimize before I logged. Was reading too much on here! lol. Thanks for any help you guys can provide.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Epicinsanity View Post
    I've been looking for this answer everywhere. What is considered "high enough" mastery? I'm doing the Hit/Exp > Mastery Build because I'm having threat issues on trash and adds. Since I'm hit/exp capped, and am sitting at like 250% mastery raid buffed. Since I feel like may be too much! lol.
    Only you will know how much mastery is too much. It depends on a number of things such as the type of fights you are doing, (10 or 25, norm or heroic) your raid composition and your playstyle. At the moment there is no stat priority that is set in stone as the best way to go, therefore the best thing you can do is try different builds.

    Try pulling some stats from your mastery or stamina and move them to haste or parry. Haste will allow your runes to build faster, thus giving you more death strikes. Parry will allow you to avoid extra damage while also giving you more runic power through scent of blood and more crit through riposte. As stated earlier in this thread parry is preferred over dodge due to parryhaste.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Epicinsanity View Post
    I've been looking for this answer everywhere. What is considered "high enough" mastery? I'm doing the Hit/Exp > Mastery Build because I'm having threat issues on trash and adds. Since I'm hit/exp capped, and am sitting at like 250% mastery raid buffed. Since I feel like may be too much! lol.

    There is a lot of talk on here, wow forums, elitest jerks about different builds. So I was looking at some of the Offensive builds to help with raid DPS. Our Warrior Tank is just destroying me now in DPS. I have solid faith in my healers, so I'm not worried about having crazy big shields anymore. Most of the time our progression wipes come from DPS dying to stupid stuff, or not having enough DPS on fights.

    Since I'm a MMO Champ forum noob, my character is Epicinsanity on Zuljin. As of 10/6/13, I'm not gemmed, or enchanted on a few pieces just didn't have time to optimize before I logged. Was reading too much on here! lol. Thanks for any help you guys can provide.
    This is going to depend on a lot of factors, the main on being your build. If you build for avoidance, Blood Shields are generally going to stay up a bit longer, since avoiding a hit wouldn't reduce the Blood Shield you have up. Then again, avoidance builds Scent of Blood now, which can make your shields bigger.

    With a DPS focused build you won't have much avoidance, so you might want to aim for a bit more Mastery to make those shields bigger.

    All in all, from what I have gathered is that if you are capping your shield a lot, while tanking, you could probably stand to lose some Mastery.

  19. #39
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    Well I am finally going to try out a pure avoidance build. Heroic spoils while not being the most demanding, requires a bit more DPS and I am going to try and get a bit more DPS out of my gear.

    I dropped like 4 or 5% haste putting me down to an even 10%. Even with 10% and no AMS soaking I seem to be fine on resources when just have a couple of mobs on me, so the DPS loss there really isn't all that large. As I get more gear I'll probably move more itemization out of haste until I reach a point where I can't really death strike or rune strike with almost every GCD.

    Additionally I picked up about 10k dodge/parry rating combined, dropped about 8000 mastery, while everything else more or less stayed the same. Before I was at something like 230% mastery (without the raid buff), and now I sit at something like 120%. I don't know what my avoidance is like counting DR, but it felt like a fairly substantial gain. More so the impact of riposte critical increase felt really nice. It boosted me from about 18% crit to well over 30% and I could instantly tell. Mind you this was just soloing trash in SoO.

  20. #40
    I've been following the gearing strategy for the 7/14H bosses we've done so far on 10-man heroic (first 5, Nazgrim, and Spoils):

    Hit to 7.5% > Exp to 7.5% > Comfortable level of Mastery > Parry > Dodge

    So far 160% unbuffed Mastery has been very comfortable, and I'm going to experiment with dropping even more. I've had no problem surviving at all. I'm at about 15k combined dodge/parry rating which is about 45% avoidance, and nearly 20% extra crit when Riposte is up. This has provided a significant DPS increase over a Mastery-heavy build, and I truly haven't felt any negative effects on my survivability. Parry is a superior choice to dodge despite diminishing returns due to parryhaste as mentioned above.

    I only have about 5% haste. I don't see the value of having much haste anymore. Our resource generation is just too high this patch with more AMS soaking, t16 4-pc, CD reduction trinket, glyph of regen magic, Scent of Blood changes, etc. We're GCD capped at very low levels of haste, especially on fights with lots of adds or frequent opportunities to AMS soak. The only time I would recommend having some haste is for fights where we can't get a lot of RP from AMS, and that's really only General Nazgrim. Haste helps there for having DS available more quickly for Execute, too. Maybe Paragons, too, depending on what you're tanking.

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