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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeth View Post
    Not knowing how the developers failed at class balance/design does not preclude one from criticizing them.
    I never said that it did. You're completely putting words in my mouth and destroying a straw man here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeth View Post
    If you give me $5 and ask for change, and I give you only $4 in singles back, you don't know exactly how or why I reasoned that $4 was the appropriate amount (in my mind) to return to you, but you know you were shorted. But please, if that situation becomes reality, please give me "the benefit of the doubt" and let me keep that dollar!
    Because you decided to jump into the conversation well after the fact as well, I'll catch you up. Let's play along with your silly example...

    What I'M saying is unacceptable, short-sighted, and disrespectful of the average WoW player is the presumptuous and arrogant attitude from which they make their accusations. Here's what I mean:

    You: Here's your $4.
    Me: YOU'RE FUCKING RETARDED AT MATH!

    Compared to:

    You: Here's your $4.
    Me: I gave you $5. Can you check that again?

    One is a completely unfounded claim, and a ridiculous overreaction; the other is a humble, respectful request to re-address the perceived mistake.

  2. #122
    Pandaren Monk Redpanda's Avatar
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    Got Assurance last night and did some messing around with bm and sv. The difference it makes in gameplay is shocking for both specs juggling bw on a 45 second cd and focus fire, im not used to the reduced stampede cd lol. Over all I liked it alot. Wtih BA being 16 seconds it makes for very smooth sv gameplay. Ill have to see how marks feels on a offnight.
    Chaos! Madness! Like a hug for your brain!¯\(°_o)/¯
    Quote Originally Posted by Alpheus View Post
    People doing below 200k dps? Ain't nobody got time for that.
    Quote Originally Posted by smartazjb0y View Post
    Why? Why should content be gated behind skill?
    14/14h and finally done

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Slot View Post
    Feeding a troll? No I'm clearing up that your hard head can't wrap around the fact that history proves itself and does not lie. Linking achieves lawls that is more "troll" like then giving a good argument which you have yet to do.
    Slot, you completely missed his point and continue to do so. You are arguing a point which is not the point he was making.

    You: Blizzard has a history of not being very effective in dealing with hunter class.

    He: Software developers have lots of careful discussions we are not privvy to.

    Both statements are ones I personally agree with. They are different points. Stop arguing.

    On a separate topic,
    Conjor, THANK YOU. Great posts and very clarifying.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Conjor View Post
    The only thing ANYONE should take from my numbers is that all of our specs are VERY, VERY, VERY close. THe only thing that will differentiate the specs at this point is your gear setup and reforging. Other than that, just play whatever you want.
    Really wise words. Thanks for sharing. I'm really excited to just be able to play whatever spec feels most fun for me, as it seems to vary week to week lol.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Namor of Muradin View Post
    Slot, you completely missed his point and continue to do so. You are arguing a point which is not the point he was making.

    You: Blizzard has a history of not being very effective in dealing with hunter class.

    He: Software developers have lots of careful discussions we are not privvy to.

    Both statements are ones I personally agree with. They are different points. Stop arguing.

    On a separate topic,
    Conjor, THANK YOU. Great posts and very clarifying.
    You must of not read him calling someone out pointing out the band aid buffs AFTER Patch has gone live. I was simply calling him out for defending blizzard because this has always been the case with hunter class history proves it.

    So please tell me how these are not the same thanks.

  6. #126
    Tested MM tonight in our raid. Good results on Iron Juggernaut & Concussive Barrage was handy on Dark Shamans oozes.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Skygoneblue View Post

    You have no idea how much discussion went on about hunters between Blizzard employees, nor ALL of their reasons for implementing (or not implementing) the changes that they did.

    It's pretty arrogant and short-sighted to accuse their changes of being random from the limited vantage point you're at. Try giving them the benefit of the doubt once in a while.
    Slot, this was his original comment. Read it. He is not saying anything about the history of hunters being poorly managed or defending the decisions that are have been made. He is saying we don't know what went on behind the scenes. He is correct, we don't.

    Several people including you got their panties in a twist and proceeded to go on and on about the poor history blizzard has in managing the hunter class. Ok. Except that is not what he was talking about.

    If you still can't see how these two topics are different, I give up. Please stop derailing the thread.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Namor of Muradin View Post
    Please stop derailing the thread.
    Second this.

    Now, "if" others SimC results are like/close to Conjors, What fights would it be "worth" it to go MM?

    I still haven't been able go to home and look into SimC.

    But I'm assuming that Conjors test were on a patchwerk like fight?

    Assuming 10m(I raid 10m, and a "higher" majority of raiders do). For Shamans, would the 100% uptime in 50% slow + reduced cost of MS + WildQuiver be worth it vs SV?

    On Juggernaut/ Malkorok which are "somewhat" close to Patchwerk, would those excel for MM vs SV/BM?

  9. #129
    Stood in the Fire Conjor's Avatar
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    I won't give any specifics, but I know for a fact that MM is completly viable for single target fights at the heroic level. It seriously lacks compared to BM or Survival for AoE fights, but it is right up there with the other specs on single target fights. But then again, you NEED the right gear for MM. The scaling factors just don't allow anything except for high WDPS and low Mastery.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Namor of Muradin View Post
    Slot, this was his original comment. Read it. He is not saying anything about the history of hunters being poorly managed or defending the decisions that are have been made. He is saying we don't know what went on behind the scenes. He is correct, we don't.

    Several people including you got their panties in a twist and proceeded to go on and on about the poor history blizzard has in managing the hunter class. Ok. Except that is not what he was talking about.

    If you still can't see how these two topics are different, I give up. Please stop derailing the thread.
    You did not read the post that this comment was for...

    Oh and you chimed in when I was done, so you stop derailing this thread?

  11. #131
    For the people who jumped me, may I suggest you read Bovan's original post? I'm well aware you can follow Aimed with Chimera. That's not even remotely the scenario he described.

    Edit: Yes, this is a slow reply. I check these forums maybe once a day.

  12. #132
    Blademaster Flidro's Avatar
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    MM is pretty viable. 328k dps at 5:47 on Heroic Malkorok using AiS dump. 574 weapon, 2p, Haromm and Renataki, etc etc.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Conjor View Post
    13k crit, 13.9k haste, 6.2k mastery (worst stat). But it really is the WDPS that carries it.
    still dont know why people say mastery is the worst stat xD if i check my dps logs its now Aimed place 1 chimera 2 wildquiver 3 with a big leap to the next skills
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Naftc View Post
    Hunters are the cheapest class in game and when played right are more deadly than a train plowing through a field of bunnies covered in napalm.
    Scrimjaw - Hunter - Blackmoore (EU)

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrimjaw View Post
    still dont know why people say mastery is the worst stat xD if i check my dps logs its now Aimed place 1 chimera 2 wildquiver 3 with a big leap to the next skills
    Aimed suppresses autoshot and takes longer to cast than arcane, so for MM if you're using primarily aimed as a focus dump you're going to see less value from mastery because the total shot count will be lower, thus lowering your proc chance. You can probably math out with reasonable accuracy the dps that more crit would give you based on your logs, but haste is harder to quantify outside of a sim.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Flidro View Post
    MM is pretty viable. 328k dps at 5:47 on Heroic Malkorok using AiS dump. 574 weapon, 2p, Haromm and Renataki, etc etc.
    Not saying it's not viable, but I managed 326k DPS as Beast Mastery with a 549 weapon and no SoO trinkets in our last week's normal mode Malkorok 3:14 kill. I'm just not convinced Marksmanship is actually beating Beast Mastery in practice. Viable, oh absolutely. But not for the heroic raiders pushing progress amongst us.

  16. #136
    Not sure you can compare a 5:47 fight to a 3:14 fight...

    On top of that, it's not really usefull to compare one log to another one. Proc, crit, bad luck, bad timing...

    Too many variables.

    We need hundreds of logs at least...

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Trieste View Post
    Not sure you can compare a 5:47 fight to a 3:14 fight...

    On top of that, it's not really usefull to compare one log to another one. Proc, crit, bad luck, bad timing...

    Too many variables.

    We need hundreds of logs at least...
    I'd say 5:47 would have given Beast Mastery a bigger advantage due to having a 2nd Stampede. Other than that, yea I agree. But this one particular example isn't very convincing.

    Anyway I heavily regret making that post now. It looks too much like bragging which really wasn't my intention.

  18. #138
    I don't really agree.
    With a 3:14 fight, you still beneficiate too much from the opening burst. You should always have a higher dps on a 3 min fight than on a 5:30 fight, even with the second stampede.

  19. #139
    still sticking to bm for progression, topping our charts with it and I won't get haromms or anything since our rouge gets it and I get the ebon detonator.

  20. #140
    i used MM tonight on our hc iron juggernaut kill i got to admit i do enoy playing it. i would post a link to the logs but i can't post links yet. just look up 25 iron juggernaut eu and us i am the hunter named corv stormreaver eu.

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