so massive demo nerf, slight aff nerf, destro buff

[xuros]

Right now the gap between sup/sac for destro is within the noise of RNG variance. Personally I like the sac option. I was the highest caster on h.sha as destro. Was seeing better numbers on spoils (vs aff) but got so much hate from guildies who don't keep pace w' changes I was sort of forced back. Considering BL's vid has destro on it on the frontpage I believe some people owe me an apology...

I don't exactly buy into destro being stronger single target...and definitely not on multiple targets that live more than a couple gcds (say fallen protectors)...but its nice for fast on/off dps.

Each spec has its "cheese"....whether its aff snapshotting dots and SS'ing them around, demo doing some funky chicken trinket/mastery dance, or destro shadowburn/havoc sniping they all play the game.

Destro isnt too bad multi target either. I beat out our affliction lock on this weeks protectors run by 40k DPS and our ilvl is within 2 points of each other hes very good at his job. On Nazgrim its awesome firing out 4 Havoced chaos bolts for 1mil+ each. Was leaps and bounds ahead of the rest of my raids dps for that.

[Werst]

I'll have to try the nazgrim destro thing though in all fairness soulswapping dots from boss through all the adds is pretty strong too. Maybe functionally better blowing up shaman adds that are really dangerous? Though after the hate destro is getting IDK if the drama is worth it (keep in mind US top 20 25m).

Hard to say based on ilvl since you can have higher ilvl but lower dps. IE if warlock A has a 560ilvl w' primo trinkets/wep and warlock B has 560ilvl w' belt/boots/wrists but T15 weps/trinkets. Bit of ilvl is nice but not as nice as the 3500 spellpower gain between even a heroic thunderforged wep and a SoO heroic wep.

I like destro on immerses too...just that fight is cake anyhow so /shrug. Nourshen has too many adds too frequently for destro to havoc though you could just havoc big ones and sburn snipe low ones (provided they got to shadowburn range before dying). Gala feels like if you can keep trinket proc dots rolling it will beat destro but then again some people get hung up on numbers vs say killing the shaman asap so the rest of the adds can die in due course. H.Malkorok maybe you could pull ahead by RoF'ing on the boss to get embers to toss more chaosbolts but I think aff will still win. Though in our kill the adds didn't live long enough to warrant soulswapping. H.spoils as destro would work better if the tanks would keep adds closer to each other (using malkorok's cleave trinket luls)...when they are spread all over it feels like bouncing soulswaps works better.

[OokingDooker]

i think destro is still quite competitive with affliction, if you time your chaos bolts correctly it can by pass affliction single target by quite a bit.

[FurtyIRL]

i think destro is still quite competitive with affliction, if you time your chaos bolts correctly it can by pass affliction single target by quite a bit.

This is just plain not true.

[OokingDooker]

Simcraft is agreeing with me on a purely single target fight. Both specs reforged optimally.

[Werst]

At 565ilvl 540-3 has aff significantly ahead even when I reforge/optimize for destro. I will say aff loses more going into a destro reforge than destro loses going into an affliction reforge. This is both using same trinkets and 4xT16.

[EvreliaGaming]

This is just plain not true.

Actually, it is a lot closer than you'd expect.

[NeverStop]

Actually, it is a lot closer than you'd expect.

I saw Method's warlocks were Destro for their World First blackfuse kill. Any particular reason?

[Noshii]

I saw Method's warlocks were Destro for their World First blackfuse kill. Any particular reason?

Haven't checked the raid comp for that particular fight, but I believe only spark was destro... for the adds

[Cebel]

I saw Method's warlocks were Destro for their World First blackfuse kill. Any particular reason?

aoe on the mines.

[FurtyIRL]

Actually, it is a lot closer than you'd expect.

Oh it's up there sure, but it doesn't "pass affliction by quite a bit" if you "time your chaos bolts right".

[OokingDooker]

Oh it's up there sure, but it doesn't "pass affliction by quite a bit" if you "time your chaos bolts right".

It passes it by 20k dps according to simcraft as well as self testing.. so yea, that's quite a bit on a single target. At my ilvl of 555 at least

[FurtyIRL]

It passes it by 20k dps according to simcraft as well as self testing.. so yea, that's quite a bit on a single target. At my ilvl of 555 at least

Not sure what APL's you are using for simcraft, but as far as self-testing goes ... well, maybe you just need to practice affliction a little more before you make that determination.

[Baconeggcheese]

Its funny seeing people use early simcraft results as bible.

Simcraft always takes months to figure out what people have been doing in game for quite a while. Last tiers simcraft wasn't caught up until the tier was pretty much done. Take it with a grain of salt.

[OokingDooker]

Not sure what APL's you are using for simcraft, but as far as self-testing goes ... well, maybe you just need to practice affliction a little more before you make that determination.

I main affliction, and plays it close to perfect. Let me know if you like logs/rankings for proof. Didn't touch the default APL, and as far as I can see from another thread on here, I'm not the only one getting these results from sims, in fact a well known warlock theorycrafter has stated destro is ahead of affliction single target. So I dunno why you're having such a hard time accepting it. I guess its time for you to get familiar with destro again?

[gahddo]

Ending the debate.

Destruction is currently 1.5% ahead of affliction single target in simc. Five thousand dps out of a total of 322k that affliction is sitting at in normal BiS. THEY ARE CLOSE. The difference between the specs comes entirely down to fight mechanics and what gear you currently have available. Destruction loses more from movement, affliction loses more from burst cleave/aoe, blah blah. Destro gets an insane dps gain from bindings, affliction benefits more from black blood and set bonuses single target. Etc etc.

I'll be posting simc crud tonight.

[FurtyIRL]

I main affliction, and plays it close to perfect. Let me know if you like logs/rankings for proof. Didn't touch the default APL, and as far as I can see from another thread on here, I'm not the only one getting these results from sims, in fact a well known warlock theorycrafter has stated destro is ahead of affliction single target. So I dunno why you're having such a hard time accepting it. I guess its time for you to get familiar with destro again?

You should use Brusalk's updated Simcraft apl for destro, take the poster above you's advice and not take simcraft for hard fact at this point with regards to theory vs actuality, and maybe be a little less vague.

[OokingDooker]

You should use Brusalk's updated Simcraft apl for destro, take the poster above you's advice and not take simcraft for hard fact at this point with regards to theory vs actuality, and maybe be a little less vague.

I don't think I mentioned a word of theory vs. real raid. All I said was purely single target as in patchwerk, which is the default for simcraft. Could be my gear that's pushing destro ahead of affliction by a bigger margin, but it remains true of what I said, confirmed by the poster above you.

[FurtyIRL]

I don't think I mentioned a word of theory vs. real raid. All I said was purely single target as in patchwerk, which is the default for simcraft. Could be my gear that's pushing destro ahead of affliction by a bigger margin, but it remains true of what I said, confirmed by the poster above you.

What I'm saying is that simcraft makes certain assumptions that don't always hold true in a real raid. It's always fantastic for evaluating the dps gains of certain pieces of gear against each other — and that is what I mean by theory vs. what you put in practice. Simcraft will tell you one thing about what dps should be but that doesn't always hold true in practice. Since you don't have an armory link or logs I can't really put a finger on which spec 'should' be better, but they are reasonably close on a few fights. He's also referring to 'normal' BiS, which for people optimizing for progression etc., doesn't hold a lot of relevance. There's also a fair bit of movement on nearly every fight which hurts destro pretty significantly. Ultimately if you are able to play both specs at a very competitive level you should see affliction pull ahead on most encounters.

[hellhamster]

Sometimes I read stuff here that makes me cringe, because every year it's the same. Yes Simcraft is not a real representation of a real raid environment, and yes it is an accurate tool (most of the time) to see statweights and other stuff for your character, and no it shouldn't dictate what spec you should play. It's like automatically every single person plays each spec on the same level as simcraft does.

Unless you are playing in a hardcore guild, in which case you should be minmaxing for each encounter and therefore pick the spec that can deliver the most, everyone should just play what he likes best. For every person there is the perfect spec(s). Rarely is a spec extremely far behind the others, and if there is (like now with demo), something just went wrong.

Take me for example, I'm a hardcore demo fan. The hotfixes made me die a little inside, I was unsure what to play henceforth. I went affliction, I decided I didn't feel like performing that good, I went destruction, and I fell in love. I feel I do even more than I did as demo even with pre-nerf UVLS. So here it is, unless you are needed to play a spec according to each encounter, play whatever you love most.