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  1. #1
    Pit Lord Cyrops's Avatar
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    femaledwarf sim vs reality disparity

    Hello fellow hunters,

    Today I simed my hunter for the first time in femaledwarf.com
    I got 108k dps roughly. In raids I do around 95-97k (on my best fights).

    Is this gap between sim and reality adequate or am I super bad? I know there is always room for improvement

    Good hunting.

  2. #2
    I think it depends.

    Periodically (based on gear, current patch/hotfix mechanics) I can get higher than FD/Simc. But more often than not I'm within 10%

  3. #3
    Mechagnome
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    You should in fact do more damage than the standard simulation, at least on good gear. On well organized groups, conditions are always better than the standard settings of FD, plus fights don't last a fixated amount of time and it usually goes into the player's benefit. Some of these conditions can be simulated, others can't. many buffs and trinket proccs are averaged, which undervaluates them. Other effects like Stormalsh totem or skull banners can be added, but they are likely to be averaged aswell (I don't have info on this tbh). Shattering Throws are not supported afaik. On the other hand, if you have a poorly geared toon you are mostly restricted to LFR and such, were the conditions are usually even worst. Bosses with no Lust, lasting forever, no one using any other DPS raid CD or just poorly executed bosses will hold down your DPS a lot.

    But definetly you should aim to close the gap between you and FD, and if you get to raid seriously with your hunter, you should aim to surpass it

  4. #4
    Pit Lord Cyrops's Avatar
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    I guess sims don't account for some boss mechanics. But when you play a lot you know your 'average' DPS with no gimmicks.
    I was puzzled because someone was saying a long the lines "you should do 130k DPS or I kick you from my raid" and since it simed for below 110k I wasn't sure what was wrong.
    The good thing about sim - I realised I have to pay more attention to my rotation, as siming with different shot priority gives me fast results on the outcome (yes I know sims aren't perfect etc.).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by pichuca View Post
    You should in fact do more damage than the standard simulation, at least on good gear. On well organized groups, conditions are always better than the standard settings of FD, plus fights don't last a fixated amount of time and it usually goes into the player's benefit. Some of these conditions can be simulated, others can't. many buffs and trinket proccs are averaged, which undervaluates them. Other effects like Stormalsh totem or skull banners can be added, but they are likely to be averaged aswell (I don't have info on this tbh). Shattering Throws are not supported afaik. On the other hand, if you have a poorly geared toon you are mostly restricted to LFR and such, were the conditions are usually even worst. Bosses with no Lust, lasting forever, no one using any other DPS raid CD or just poorly executed bosses will hold down your DPS a lot.

    But definetly you should aim to close the gap between you and FD, and if you get to raid seriously with your hunter, you should aim to surpass it
    Thank you for that information.
    Indeed this will be only my 3rd 'week' after being level 90, so I am restricted to LFR for now. And conditions are not remotely perfect. Like using Stampede twice in a fight and the boss still is at ~15%.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrops View Post
    I guess sims don't account for some boss mechanics. But when you play a lot you know your 'average' DPS with no gimmicks.
    I was puzzled because someone was saying a long the lines "you should do 130k DPS or I kick you from my raid" and since it simed for below 110k I wasn't sure what was wrong.
    The good thing about sim - I realised I have to pay more attention to my rotation, as siming with different shot priority gives me fast results on the outcome (yes I know sims aren't perfect etc.).
    sim arent perfect but i doubt you would ever get close to a sim, unless is a really short fight and still. you would need perfect latency, real latency not what the Little computer in your screen says and a flawless rotation for the whole fight, the more the fight last the more mistakes you would make, specially since we have no real rotation on any spec and procs enhance more this. you are only human cant compare yourself to a program designed to do 1 job perfect.

    if you are close or above of your sim dps on either sim without gimicks and same conditions you are doing somthing wrong with the sim, you would never get close to a sim dps. i havent check femadwarf a lot but i know simc is pretty acurate and at least the BM module has been polish a lot latelly, i dont know zehera (still dont know if is a he or a she tbh) but i know he/she has lots of work on his page and while not perfect is pretty acurate as well. he/she can tell you how close to reality is because he/she post in this boards often.

  6. #6
    Pit Lord Cyrops's Avatar
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    Concerning delay, the default value for ms is set to something like 30. I changed it to my average (taken from in-game value) and the DPS went down something like 10%.

  7. #7
    Legendary! Spl4sh3r's Avatar
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    SimC is weird. I just tried it for my Hunter and used the Patchwerk style, the simulation said I spent 9 seconds on Multishot. Why would the simulation use Multishot on a single target fight?

    As for the topic I was also pretty close on FemaleDwarf yesterday when we killed Thok. FD said 229k DPS and I did 218k.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perrito View Post
    sim arent perfect but i doubt you would ever get close to a sim, unless is a really short fight and still. you would need perfect latency, real latency not what the Little computer in your screen says and a flawless rotation for the whole fight, the more the fight last the more mistakes you would make, specially since we have no real rotation on any spec and procs enhance more this. you are only human cant compare yourself to a program designed to do 1 job perfect.

    if you are close or above of your sim dps on either sim without gimicks and same conditions you are doing somthing wrong with the sim, you would never get close to a sim dps. i havent check femadwarf a lot but i know simc is pretty acurate and at least the BM module has been polish a lot latelly, i dont know zehera (still dont know if is a he or a she tbh) but i know he/she has lots of work on his page and while not perfect is pretty acurate as well. he/she can tell you how close to reality is because he/she post in this boards often.
    just as an example of how you can beat the sim without any clunky mechanics or really short fights(log is private, but here's the ranking info):
    Thok the Bloodthirsty 25N 1 496 256 705 1 335 883 918 443.5s - - -
    This is our thok kill this week, as you can see is longer than 7 minutes, so there's a chance for a second stampede but again long enough to even it out. the moment of the kill I had 551 Ilvl, 2 pieces t15, no tier 16, no aoc, I was simming 247k on FD.
    Boss damage was:
    4 - Piichu Beast Mastery 301 116362470 15558015 0 False 262348.3 - 255095.2 102.8% Report is not public

    As you can see is a lot higher than the predicted damage on FD. There's nothing wrong or strange in the fight, I got fixated once, 100% on boss. BUT: I had 3 warriors in raid, which is worth 3 Skull banners*3 uses each, which can be added in FD manually in the buffs/debuffs section, but afaik they are averaged, losing a lot of their value. I had 4 Shattering Throws (3 warr+feral)*2 uses each, which means the whole Lust duration, something that FD can't simulate. And of course I prepoted, which in the sim is off by default. Adding all this manually in the buff/debuff section yielded me a 1.8% dps increase, almost 5k dps, still far from the real DPS.

    TLR The dps you get from a default FD run is a good guideline, but you should be able to beat it in a proper raid envyronment
    Last edited by pichuca; 2013-09-24 at 01:31 PM.

  9. #9
    In answer to the question, yes, the skull banners and stormlash totems are averaged over the fight. You bring up a good point about shattering throw- I always forget about that because my group never has a warrior (and I wasn't aware ferals have that option, is that from symbiosis?). Simulationcraft will be more accurate because it actually simulates everything as it happens, whereas my site can't reflect the value of the stacking buffs.

    It's odd that your simc would use multishot Spl4sh3r, but you can adjust the shot priority list to prevent that. If you were using the GUI, I have noticed sometimes the settings don't get copied over properly to your profile. I usually use the command line.

    In answer to your question Perrito, I am female, just like my character

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by pichuca View Post
    just as an example of how you can beat the sim without any clunky mechanics or really short fights(log is private, but here's the ranking info):
    Thok the Bloodthirsty 25N 1 496 256 705 1 335 883 918 443.5s - - -
    This is our thok kill this week, as you can see is longer than 7 minutes, so there's a chance for a second stampede but again long enough to even it out. the moment of the kill I had 551 Ilvl, 2 pieces t15, no tier 16, no aoc, I was simming 247k on FD.
    Boss damage was:
    4 - Piichu Beast Mastery 301 116362470 15558015 0 False 262348.3 - 255095.2 102.8% Report is not public

    As you can see is a lot higher than the predicted damage on FD. There's nothing wrong or strange in the fight, I got fixated once, 100% on boss. BUT: I had 3 warriors in raid, which is worth 3 Skull banners*3 uses each, which can be added in FD manually in the buffs/debuffs section, but afaik they are averaged, losing a lot of their value. I had 4 Shattering Throws (3 warr+feral)*2 uses each, which means the whole Lust duration, something that FD can't simulate. And of course I prepoted, which in the sim is off by default. Adding all this manually in the buff/debuff section yielded me a 1.8% dps increase, almost 5k dps, still far from the real DPS.

    TLR The dps you get from a default FD run is a good guideline, but you should be able to beat it in a proper raid envyronment
    you are not simming properlly then, you say you can be a machine for 7 min and have flawless rotation on a fight that also require some kind of awareness at least on kiting phase and some planing because you are not the one telling the boss to move and the slight change on movement made to any of your parners could get you in a bad position and made you make mistakes.

    like i said, if you are above of what a sim tell you then that mean something is way off. a sim is you doing your perfect rotation, you cant beat that, a sim dont think he just perform what is best at a given time. you as human cant beat that, like zehera said, the sims are not acurate 100% but are close to it.

    also if you are using RPPM trinket there is this thing call luck procs that a sim probably dont sim right because is counter productive for them to do so. i had a 250k dps on Raden 1 day without changing anything on my rotation it was just luck with my procs, both trinkets sinc every time and i had around 50% uptime on both trinkets.

    TY zehera for your clarification.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perrito View Post
    you are not simming properlly then, you say you can be a machine for 7 min and have flawless rotation on a fight that also require some kind of awareness at least on kiting phase and some planing because you are not the one telling the boss to move and the slight change on movement made to any of your parners could get you in a bad position and made you make mistakes.

    like i said, if you are above of what a sim tell you then that mean something is way off. a sim is you doing your perfect rotation, you cant beat that, a sim dont think he just perform what is best at a given time. you as human cant beat that, like zehera said, the sims are not acurate 100% but are close to it.

    also if you are using RPPM trinket there is this thing call luck procs that a sim probably dont sim right because is counter productive for them to do so. i had a 250k dps on Raden 1 day without changing anything on my rotation it was just luck with my procs, both trinkets sinc every time and i had around 50% uptime on both trinkets.

    TY zehera for your clarification.
    did you read the whole post?
    again: the Default FD settings do not take into account a lot of things that increase your dps in raid. There are no stormlash totems, no Skull banners, no Shattering trhows enabled by default. The fight duration is 5 min, which is a really bad duration for a fight if you dont have AoC. Plus every procc is averaged , diminishing the value of stacking CDs/proccs which is key for our DPS. If you take all this into consideration, is safe to say that you SHOULD take advantage of all this in a real raid envyronment, and outdps the sim.

    So, if you just type www.femaledwarf.com and load your char and just sim it, the dps it gives you is WAY LOWER than the max you can do. If you take your time and adjust the settings and buffs/debuffs the sim will go higher, getting close to your theoretical DPS, but it will never give you the exact theoretical DPS, as there are situations it just can't handle by design

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Perrito View Post
    if you are close or above of your sim dps on either sim without gimicks and same conditions you are doing somthing wrong with the sim, you would never get close to a sim dps.
    FD sims me 288k and SimC slightly less than that. This is my kill from Thok tonight: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/1...?s=2188&e=2492

    It's absolutely possible to beat an average-based sim when you can make things line up.

  13. #13
    You should be able to do as much as your sim says you should. Hunters aren't penalized by movement so every fight without downtime is essentially patchwerk for us. Honestly I find FD to be a very basic sim and I generally always do more DPS than I'm simmed for on FD. Simcraft is another story, you should be about equal with Simcraft, allowing slight differences for RNG.

  14. #14
    dosnt seem like ppl get it, if you are beating a sim you are not getting the same conditions. sure i could beat a sim when i had retarded procs or that extra shattering trow. like i said, you as human wont be able to beat a sim. why? because is a program designed to always take the perfect choice and we are just humans and will make mistakes, specially on long fights.

    comming here saying you beat it by a long shot and not using the sim correctly isnt what i call beating a sim.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Perrito View Post
    dosnt seem like ppl get it, if you are beating a sim you are not getting the same conditions. sure i could beat a sim when i had retarded procs or that extra shattering trow. like i said, you as human wont be able to beat a sim. why? because is a program designed to always take the perfect choice and we are just humans and will make mistakes, specially on long fights.

    comming here saying you beat it by a long shot and not using the sim correctly isnt what i call beating a sim.

    FD doesn't use CDs properly. At least as BM if you are good you should be able to beat your sim.

    You seem to be under the impression that sims are "designed to always take the perfect choice". Do you realize sims are made by actual people to represent playing the game? They aren't just magical tools that are programmed by Blizzard. In order to make a sim that is PERFECT at everything you'd need millions of lines of rules/code regarding shot priority/cd usage under every single situation ever.
    Last edited by Glurp; 2013-09-25 at 02:19 AM.

  16. #16
    Pit Lord Cyrops's Avatar
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    So I ran LFR SoO both wings yesterday, got tier chest and gloves plus the weapon
    happyhunter.jpg
    My ilvl went up by a wooping 3ilvl, but now I sim for 30k more on FD.
    I still screw up my shot priority and I only got this idea today, but I believe I am not using arcane shot that much.
    FD suggests my arcane shot does around 16% damage, I shall look into damage breakdown tonight.

    I run FD with no buffs, only keep my pet buff as I know it will be up, as well as hunter mark.

    One more thing, I use wind serpent for 5% spell damage, on FD I simed with no pet buff and then tried the wolf for 5% crit.
    wolf vs serpent simed for more DPS, but it was something like 300 out of 100k, less that 1%.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeherah View Post
    In answer to the question, yes, the skull banners and stormlash totems are averaged over the fight. You bring up a good point about shattering throw- I always forget about that because my group never has a warrior (and I wasn't aware ferals have that option, is that from symbiosis?). Simulationcraft will be more accurate because it actually simulates everything as it happens, whereas my site can't reflect the value of the stacking buffs.

    It's odd that your simc would use multishot Spl4sh3r, but you can adjust the shot priority list to prevent that. If you were using the GUI, I have noticed sometimes the settings don't get copied over properly to your profile. I usually use the command line.

    In answer to your question Perrito, I am female, just like my character
    Hello Zeherah,
    Nice of you to post But the original question remains, and perhaps you can shed some light on it:
    excluding fight gimmicks and so on, what disparity between sim and reality tells me I am doing something very wrong?

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Glurp View Post
    FD doesn't use CDs properly. At least as BM if you are good you should be able to beat your sim.

    You seem to be under the impression that sims are "designed to always take the perfect choice". Do you realize sims are made by actual people to represent playing the game? They aren't just magical tools that are programmed by Blizzard. In order to make a sim that is PERFECT at everything you'd need millions of lines of rules/code regarding shot priority/cd usage under every single situation ever.

    well im using femaledwarf since a week now and i have to say if you put the cds more on top of the shot priority it uses them properly without any issues

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrimjaw View Post
    well im using femaledwarf since a week now and i have to say if you put the cds more on top of the shot priority it uses them properly without any issues
    How would you know? I'm talking about proper CD usage and CD stacking. The way FD models it is that it just puts them in the general shot priority and uses them on cooldown.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Glurp View Post
    FD doesn't use CDs properly. At least as BM if you are good you should be able to beat your sim.

    You seem to be under the impression that sims are "designed to always take the perfect choice". Do you realize sims are made by actual people to represent playing the game? They aren't just magical tools that are programmed by Blizzard. In order to make a sim that is PERFECT at everything you'd need millions of lines of rules/code regarding shot priority/cd usage under every single situation ever.
    there is a priority system in place, the sim will take the choice you model him to, you sometimes will make mistakes when you have 2/3 things comming out of cd, im not saying you always make mistakes but when you are watching around you and using your rotation by muscle memory you will find out that sometimes the button that you just pushed was probably the wrong choice, this is offset by pushing or using every gcd in our case since our gcd is 1.5 sec, as long as you are dealing damage you wont lose that much.

    if you miss pointing out the simulator the banners, stormlashes, fight duration, your latency, your priority in the rotation and the duration of the fight the sim will give you a wrong number. at this point you are inflating you actual dps while lowering the sim dps.

    so no you cant beat a machine when all the conditions are equal

  20. #20
    Simulations is unrealistic potential dps. I only use sims because it's a good way to see if an item gives you a dps increase in a particular spec, this goes mostly for trinkets/gems the rest is pretty self explanatory.

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