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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Perrito View Post
    there is a priority system in place, the sim will take the choice you model him to, you sometimes will make mistakes when you have 2/3 things comming out of cd, im not saying you always make mistakes but when you are watching around you and using your rotation by muscle memory you will find out that sometimes the button that you just pushed was probably the wrong choice, this is offset by pushing or using every gcd in our case since our gcd is 1.5 sec, as long as you are dealing damage you wont lose that much.

    if you miss pointing out the simulator the banners, stormlashes, fight duration, your latency, your priority in the rotation and the duration of the fight the sim will give you a wrong number. at this point you are inflating you actual dps while lowering the sim dps.

    so no you cant beat a machine when all the conditions are equal
    I can't help but feel you ignored everything I tried to tell you about how the sim works.

    If your excuse for not being able to do what the sim says is that "sometimes you make mistakes" then you should probably learn to play your class before trying to compare yourself to a sim.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Glurp View Post
    How would you know? I'm talking about proper CD usage and CD stacking. The way FD models it is that it just puts them in the general shot priority and uses them on cooldown.

    then i have to apologize . you are right situational usage of cds is not modelled right in fd except for fights where you have no "UDOMOREDMG" phase like iron juggernaut where you can just use your cooldowns on cooldown xD (had to write it out just for the coolnes !)

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perrito View Post
    there is a priority system in place, the sim will take the choice you model him to, you sometimes will make mistakes when you have 2/3 things comming out of cd, im not saying you always make mistakes but when you are watching around you and using your rotation by muscle memory you will find out that sometimes the button that you just pushed was probably the wrong choice, this is offset by pushing or using every gcd in our case since our gcd is 1.5 sec, as long as you are dealing damage you wont lose that much.

    if you miss pointing out the simulator the banners, stormlashes, fight duration, your latency, your priority in the rotation and the duration of the fight the sim will give you a wrong number. at this point you are inflating you actual dps while lowering the sim dps.

    so no you cant beat a machine when all the conditions are equal

    dude, you have either a big reading comprehension problem, or you are simply dense.

    first of all we have a 1 sec GCD except for very specific spells (dismish pet, revive pet, and the like). I guess that was a boo boo and you actually now that.
    Second, conditions on FD CAN'T be equal to live, because THEY CAN'T BE BY DESIGN. It is limited by design, both form the technical point of view (web based tool), and from the developing point, as Zeherah simply can't spend more time and resources (it costs money to host it, etc) on it. Those design limitations IMPACT the results in a negative way, giving you a number that is lower than your theoretical max DPS (btw no sim can tell you that because it is imposible to take into account every possible variable, and since sims are tools programmed by HUMANS, they are bound to be flawed). Then, there is a sweet spot, between the dps FD gives and your real max DPS, where your DPS should be.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Perrito View Post
    dosnt seem like ppl get it, if you are beating a sim you are not getting the same conditions. sure i could beat a sim when i had retarded procs or that extra shattering trow. like i said, you as human wont be able to beat a sim. why? because is a program designed to always take the perfect choice and we are just humans and will make mistakes, specially on long fights.

    comming here saying you beat it by a long shot and not using the sim correctly isnt what i call beating a sim.
    Feel free to look at my log and tell me where I had retarded procs? my spell percentages are very close to what FD says they should be.

    FD is amazing and I use it daily, but what it wont tell you is that AMoC and AoC have almost exactly the same cooldown which, if you are alert, allows you to get AMoC ticking like a bomb every time you have it up. FD says AMoC should tick for 1 million, and on average that will be right for most people, but I got 4.1 million from 3 AMoCs. There is just one example for how you can beat the sim.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by pichuca View Post
    dude, you have either a big reading comprehension problem, or you are simply dense.

    first of all we have a 1 sec GCD except for very specific spells (dismish pet, revive pet, and the like). I guess that was a boo boo and you actually now that.
    Second, conditions on FD CAN'T be equal to live, because THEY CAN'T BE BY DESIGN. It is limited by design, both form the technical point of view (web based tool), and from the developing point, as Zeherah simply can't spend more time and resources (it costs money to host it, etc) on it. Those design limitations IMPACT the results in a negative way, giving you a number that is lower than your theoretical max DPS (btw no sim can tell you that because it is imposible to take into account every possible variable, and since sims are tools programmed by HUMANS, they are bound to be flawed). Then, there is a sweet spot, between the dps FD gives and your real max DPS, where your DPS should be.
    this is way diferent than saying oh im so amazing that i beat my sim dps. the sims are not perfect i said that already, giving the exact same conditions you wont beat a sim.

    right now you are arguing that you are beating sim dps given diferent conditions. normal malkorok is close to a straght up tank and spank fight, in this kind of fight you would never beat a sim. test it out for yourself unless you already doing heroic malkorak. another fight close to being a tank and spank for hunters is iron juggernaut, in both cases heroic and normal is straigh up tank and spank no adds no burn phase no nothing to inflate your dps, grab a log, plug the same time model the sim around what you got and see how much dps you miss.

    at this point everyone should know that yes sim dps almost never happen because blizard dont design fights like that, for this reason sims are not accurate along with some of the things the sims dont properly execute, as zehera said, u get average of couple of cds like crit banners, shattering trow, stormlash.

    im not dense, i dont have any Reading comprehension issues, and yes it was my mistake when i said hunters had 1.5 sec gcd, i know we have 1 sec gcd it was just a tipo that i just saw because you pointed out.

  6. #26
    While I agree it is "possible" to beat your sim dps. I will also say that it will only be due to variation in procs with cloaks, trinkets, set bonuses, etc. If you were to have the same procs as the sim and the same fight length same latency same raid buffs (even though you can add banner and totems in sim. A sim can't take into account when it is used i.e. if they are dropped when your trinket + cloak happens to be up) There are so many RL stuff a sim can't account for. So, if you were able to set it all up like real life scenario it will beat you b/c It will have a better rotation than you. But since it can't predict all the variables you will win.
    Last edited by Wipeanrunbak; 2013-09-25 at 03:55 PM.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrops View Post
    Hello Zeherah,
    Nice of you to post But the original question remains, and perhaps you can shed some light on it:
    excluding fight gimmicks and so on, what disparity between sim and reality tells me I am doing something very wrong?
    The best thing for you to do really is to run a log when you're doing a fight (preferably a fairly straightforward fight), then compare the log results to a configuration in a sim like my site or simc that exactly matches the buffs and debuffs available during that fight and try to adjust the other settings to be as close as possible (like fight length). Iron Juggernaut or Malkorak are probably the best fights to use for comparison. That should give you some idea, and then you can also look at ability use counts and see if there are any glaring differences. Uptimes on debuffs and cooldowns are also good things to watch for in a log.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Carlaena View Post
    FD is amazing and I use it daily, but what it wont tell you is that AMoC and AoC have almost exactly the same cooldown which, if you are alert, allows you to get AMoC ticking like a bomb every time you have it up. FD says AMoC should tick for 1 million, and on average that will be right for most people, but I got 4.1 million from 3 AMoCs. There is just one example for how you can beat the sim.
    I should note that although FD doesn't have the level of configurability necessary to reflect optimizations like this, you can do some more advanced things in simc like have it hold abilities for specific procs or other conditions, which can allow it to better reflect what a really skilled player can do. Obviously you can't have it think like you, but the ability lists can be configured with a lot more detail. The default simc profiles really aren't optimized perfectly for ideal play but there's nothing stopping anyone from doing a better job on them. If you can create a much better profile and let Lokrick know, he'd probably be happy to update the default.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Spl4sh3r View Post
    SimC is weird. I just tried it for my Hunter and used the Patchwerk style, the simulation said I spent 9 seconds on Multishot. Why would the simulation use Multishot on a single target fight?
    If you are using thrill of the hunt and your SS is about to fall off, using multi-shot is the same focus as re-applying it with serpent sting. That might be a reason to use multi-shot interchangeably.

    Edit: Looking at the SimC survival default profile, this is indeed the case,
    actions+=/multi_shot,if=buff.thrill_of_the_hunt.react&dot.serpent_sting.remains<2

    If you don't want multi-shot used there, you can remove that line from the profile, though it does make sense for this to be here; since multi-shot will do damage _and_ reapply serpent string while using serpent sting by itself will just re-apply the DoT, so it does make perfect sense.
    Last edited by st33l; 2013-09-26 at 12:34 AM.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by st33l View Post
    If you are using thrill of the hunt and your SS is about to fall off, using multi-shot is the same focus as re-applying it with serpent sting. That might be a reason to use multi-shot interchangeably.

    Edit: Looking at the SimC survival default profile, this is indeed the case,
    actions+=/multi_shot,if=buff.thrill_of_the_hunt.react&dot.serpent_sting.remains<2

    If you don't want multi-shot used there, you can remove that line from the profile, though it does make sense for this to be here; since multi-shot will do damage _and_ reapply serpent string while using serpent sting by itself will just re-apply the DoT, so it does make perfect sense.
    multishot 40 focus - 20= 20 focus, serpentsting 15 focus???? where does this equal?
    Last edited by Scrimjaw; 2013-09-26 at 06:39 AM.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Naftc View Post
    Hunters are the cheapest class in game and when played right are more deadly than a train plowing through a field of bunnies covered in napalm.
    Scrimjaw - Hunter - Blackmoore (EU)

  10. #30
    Pit Lord Cyrops's Avatar
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    I did ToT normal yesterday, so the enviroment is more friendly to test DPS vs LFR.
    On fight with no gimmicks I was pulling 101-102k when I sim for 119k. The only thing I could think I am doing wrong is the Arcane Shot usage.
    I should note I am survival spec.
    My typical priority:
    1) Serpent sting up
    2) Black arrow
    3) Explosive Shots
    4) Arcane shot not too much to save focus for ES/BA
    The thing is, #4 happens very rarely. I can maybe land 1-2 AS before ES procs from LnL or I will not have enough focus for ES when it is up in a sec or two.
    I forgot to look at my damage done >.>
    I should use some log saving addon I suppose :|

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Perrito View Post
    Normal Malkorok is close to a straight up tank and spank fight, in this kind of fight you would never beat a sim. test it out for yourself unless you already doing heroic Malkorak.
    It's no problem to link logs of me smashing my sim DPS on Malk. I beat my sim on Malk by 20k on the normal week. Last night I beat my sim by 15k on HC Malk without 4% phys debuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeherah View Post
    I should note that although FD doesn't have the level of configurability necessary to reflect optimizations like this, you can do some more advanced things in simc like have it hold abilities for specific procs or other conditions, which can allow it to better reflect what a really skilled player can do. Obviously you can't have it think like you, but the ability lists can be configured with a lot more detail. The default simc profiles really aren't optimized perfectly for ideal play but there's nothing stopping anyone from doing a better job on them. If you can create a much better profile and let Lokrick know, he'd probably be happy to update the default.
    I only wish I had the time in-between work, raiding and trying to act partially alive in some way!
    There are many circumstances for me when using your site gives me more information that I need than the other tools. You do a sublime job.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Perrito View Post
    this is way diferent than saying oh im so amazing that i beat my sim dps. the sims are not perfect i said that already, giving the exact same conditions you wont beat a sim.

    right now you are arguing that you are beating sim dps given diferent conditions. normal malkorok is close to a straght up tank and spank fight, in this kind of fight you would never beat a sim. test it out for yourself unless you already doing heroic malkorak. another fight close to being a tank and spank for hunters is iron juggernaut, in both cases heroic and normal is straigh up tank and spank no adds no burn phase no nothing to inflate your dps, grab a log, plug the same time model the sim around what you got and see how much dps you miss.

    at this point everyone should know that yes sim dps almost never happen because blizard dont design fights like that, for this reason sims are not accurate along with some of the things the sims dont properly execute, as zehera said, u get average of couple of cds like crit banners, shattering trow, stormlash.

    im not dense, i dont have any Reading comprehension issues, and yes it was my mistake when i said hunters had 1.5 sec gcd, i know we have 1 sec gcd it was just a tipo that i just saw because you pointed out.
    100% agree, but not everyone gets this..
    If someone beats sim - different conditions or lucky RNG.
    FD/Sim gives avarage trinket/legendary proc, not best possible scenario - take that in mind:
    1 try you can get 15 procs, next try only 5.. simc will take 10 as avarage, not 15 which you could get with lucky rng.

    And noone cares about your lucky RNG once in a while - on avarage, you will always be little bellow fd/sim.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Glurp View Post
    I can't help but feel you ignored everything I tried to tell you about how the sim works.

    If your excuse for not being able to do what the sim says is that "sometimes you make mistakes" then you should probably learn to play your class before trying to compare yourself to a sim.
    is that it. do you have any logs from you beating a sim given the same conditions? what you are saying have nothing to do with you beating a sim or no. i didnt ignore your post, i just choose not to reply to you because you are saying something totally diferent.

    this isnt about you knowing your priority system or not, this is you saying that sims are doing it wrong, im not here to judge the sims and as zehera already said, if you have the time to improve simcraft hunter modules and want to do it, you can do that instead of saying, hey im better than a sim im badass.

    dont get me wrong, im not saying you are full of bs, im just saying that you are arguing something that is way diferent of what is being talk on this post. OP asked how accurate is femaledwarf, i would say is pretty accurate given the same conditions, you guys came here and told me i was wrong because you can beat a sim given diferent conditions.

    a sim isnt the one that is going to tell you how much your dps should be, a sim is there to tell you the potential of your dps given certain conditions, so if you dont match the same conditions everything the sim is telling you is going to be wrong, this is why most ppl use sims to weight stats and rotations/talents.

    again sims are not perfect in how they model things because they are not made by the ppl that did the game and they will have some flaws.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Carlaena View Post
    It's no problem to link logs of me smashing my sim DPS on Malk. I beat my sim on Malk by 20k on the normal week. Last night I beat my sim by 15k on HC Malk without 4% phys debuff.
    Proof or didn't happen.
    If it is no problem, where are logs???!!!! Big mouth, nothing else.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrimjaw View Post
    multishot 40 focus - 20= 20 focus, serpentsting 15 focus???? where does this equal?
    You're right; so it is extra damage for the cost of 5 extra focus. Still makes sense to use it.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Carlaena View Post
    It's no problem to link logs of me smashing my sim DPS on Malk. I beat my sim on Malk by 20k on the normal week. Last night I beat my sim by 15k on HC Malk without 4% phys debuff.
    using http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/1...?s=2188&e=2492 that you provided

    simming you at 298333.96
    255178.63 you.
    32323.45 your pet.
    10831.88 stampede.

    what i changed, prepot, 1 stormlash, 1 skull banner. fight duration is 5 min because you cant add 5.04 on femaledwarf. i can see shot simulations but i cant see anymore shot breakdown as before, this mean shot count for each ability and such.

    i used default rotation didnt want to even mess with it, 1 thing that i notice is that even tho black arrow is ahead in priority in female dwarf is casting 1st AMoC before the 1st Black arrow. so yeah the sim may have some bugs but still pretty accurate.

    the sim give you average of abilities, this way you can discard luck procs.

    you didnt outdps the sim because it have you at 255k dps and you did 251. your pet did beat sim pet by 4k because it did 36k dps while it should be doing 32k dps.

    now, come and tell me again that you beat the sim. i remember femaledwarf having the shot breakdown before i dont know how to see otherwise i would tell you by how many shots and gcds the sim beated you.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Perrito View Post
    using http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/1...?s=2188&e=2492 that you provided

    simming you at 298333.96
    255178.63 you.
    32323.45 your pet.
    10831.88 stampede.

    what i changed, prepot, 1 stormlash, 1 skull banner. fight duration is 5 min because you cant add 5.04 on femaledwarf. i can see shot simulations but i cant see anymore shot breakdown as before, this mean shot count for each ability and such.

    i used default rotation didnt want to even mess with it, 1 thing that i notice is that even tho black arrow is ahead in priority in female dwarf is casting 1st AMoC before the 1st Black arrow. so yeah the sim may have some bugs but still pretty accurate.

    the sim give you average of abilities, this way you can discard luck procs.

    you didnt outdps the sim because it have you at 255k dps and you did 251. your pet did beat sim pet by 4k because it did 36k dps while it should be doing 32k dps.

    now, come and tell me again that you beat the sim. i remember femaledwarf having the shot breakdown before i dont know how to see otherwise i would tell you by how many shots and gcds the sim beated you.
    The log you are looking at is from before the ES buff and before I got 2 heroic upgrades yesterday. I utterly smashed the sim at the time.

    Heroic Malk from last night: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/0...=16750&e=17094

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Carlaena View Post
    The log you are looking at is from before the ES buff and before I got 2 heroic upgrades yesterday. I utterly smashed the sim at the time.

    Heroic Malk from last night: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/0...=16750&e=17094
    until i cant see damage breakdown in femaledwarf i cant tell you if you did or not. do you know how average spells work? because this is a really big deal if you are trying to compare damage vs damage, this is why our sims, femaledwarf and simc are not accurate. this is the reason you dont use sims to tell you how much dps you should be doing and more like telling you if a new piece of gear is better than the other one or if x stat is better than y stat.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/0...=16750&e=17094
    look at ur meta gem procs here

    292, making 8% of your dps.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/1...?s=2188&e=2492
    170, making 5.4% of your dps.

    this kind of difference if what you need to take into account, even tho you said you didnt had crazy procs or luck, RNG are random sometimes and can work for you.

    i dont know if im clear or not. you cant beat the sim executing the rotation, under same conditions a sim would outdps you. what we have at hand isnt accurate but they are not far from the real result.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Perrito View Post
    until i cant see damage breakdown in femaledwarf i cant tell you if you did or not. do you know how average spells work? because this is a really big deal if you are trying to compare damage vs damage, this is why our sims, femaledwarf and simc are not accurate. this is the reason you dont use sims to tell you how much dps you should be doing and more like telling you if a new piece of gear is better than the other one or if x stat is better than y stat.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/0...=16750&e=17094
    look at ur meta gem procs here

    292, making 8% of your dps.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/1...?s=2188&e=2492
    170, making 5.4% of your dps.

    this kind of difference if what you need to take into account, even tho you said you didnt had crazy procs or luck, RNG are random sometimes and can work for you.

    i dont know if im clear or not. you cant beat the sim executing the rotation, under same conditions a sim would outdps you. what we have at hand isnt accurate but they are not far from the real result.
    Click Enable Stat Valuations to see spell breakdowns. Remove a couple of cloac procs and I'm still miles ahead of the sim. Meta procs are possibly a little low, but I'll take the hit.

  20. #40
    Female Dwarf is a good yard stick that doesn't take too long to set up. Also, I think calling FD a sim is leading to a bit of confusing. SimC is a sim, it simulates the actual game play (it fires shots etc), FD is a sophisticated calculator.

    You should be able to get fairly close to FD +- a few % depending on the situation.

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