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  1. #101
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    Honestly though, thinking about this whole thread a bit more, is LFR really the best place to try and teach a complete stranger how to play their class? I would argue that it's probably one of the worst places. People in LFR want to get through the place quickly and without a fuss. Giving them a running tutorial will slow both of you down and make both of you perform worse and really is very unlikely to achieve anything useful or helpful.

    There is a world of difference between explaining fight mechanics and tactics to fellow LFRers and teaching them the basics of how to play their class/role. The responsibility for that lies with people on their own realm, preferably guildies and friends. Not strangers in a LFR instance.

    This sort of thing should be done after an LFR run, and unless the other person is on your realm (or a connected realm), it would be completely pointless. I honestly doubt the OP's sincerity about his real intentions with the other warlock.


    I still remember many years ago when I first joined a raiding guild and started to raid properly. There was a really awesome hunter in the group at the time (well I certainly thought at the time he was awesome!) who decided to take me under his wing.

    After about 2 weeks of raids, he sent me a private mail that started something like this:

    "Hi Raelbo,

    I have been watching how you play and would like to say you're not a bad hunter. However there are a few areas I have noticed where you can improve..."

    He then proceeded to produce a short essay on what I was doing wrong and things I should be working on to improve. The "truth" is I was a noob and I was not very good at all. I had a great deal to learn and grow before I would become a competent raider. But because of the way my mentor elected to approach me, he got himself into a position where I could learn from him. And I did.

    Offering unsolicited "advice" to a complete strange who you are unlikely to ever see again in a setting like LFR is a recipe for disaster. OP really shouldn't have been surprised that his advances would be met with suspicion.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    There's a difference between:

    "Group 1 red, Group 2 purple, Group 3 green, Group 4 yellow"

    and

    "Pfaphfard let me help you with your DPS you won't be so bad after I show you what to do"
    Unwanted help is unwanted help. Or are you the one who decides what is unwanted and what is not? Stop meddling. I don't want you to tell me the tactics. Especially not publicly like I don't understand how a game for 12 year olds work and emberass me and hurt my feelings.

    The OP didn't say "Pfaphfard let me help you with your DPS you won't be so bad after I show you what to do". He just stated a fact and then asked if that person wanted help. Obviously some see that as an insult and some don't. You also don't always have to be constructive either. There are more ways to motivate someone to actually be part of the group they joined and contribute.

    But whatever. If this is the opinion of so many then I won't be doing my best anymore in content where I don't belong (according to some) and where I only come for some quest items (I'm not really enjoying the experience anyway so I rather go afk half the time).

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    As I said before, it was presented in a realtive neutral way
    No it was not. You are either being disingenuous or you seriously lack social skills.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    and if someone answers in such a manner it only makes it easier to weed out people worthy of association, and people who react in such a way simply aren't worth the time.
    I am pretty certain I wouldn't associate with the OP if that had been his introduction to me. So yeah, the response he got was spot on...

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    I disagree if it had been meant to truly rile someone up he would have insulted him like "lol noob what the hell are you doing, use this this and this etc."
    You do realise that there is more than one way to insult someone right? In fact I reckon the more subtle the insult, the better. The kind of primitive insult you have suggested is actually rather embarrassing IMO.

  4. #104
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    No it was not. You are either being disingenuous or you seriously lack social skills.



    I am pretty certain I wouldn't associate with the OP if that had been his introduction to me. So yeah, the response he got was spot on...



    You do realise that there is more than one way to insult someone right? In fact I reckon the more subtle the insult, the better. The kind of primitive insult you have suggested is actually rather embarrassing IMO.
    Suit yourself if you choose to be riled up about something so trivial and respond with an actual insult, if you and others want to be so petty, be my guest it is your decision after all.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    No it was not. You are either being disingenuous or you seriously lack social skills.
    Says someone who insulted multiple people multiple times in this thread already. And says it to someone who just states a fact and offers help.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    If you don't understand why saying "Hey, you're doing less dps than the tank, if you want I can help you with your rotation" is insulting to a stranger, then you are missing basic elements of your understanding of human interactions.

    Most people would instinctively know that unsolicited criticism is perceived as aggression.

    If you don't just know that then you need to at least learn it.
    I also wonder how this is any different? Did he ask for your help? He only asked if that sentence was insulting.

  6. #106
    Herald of the Titans Aqua's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yjmark View Post
    That may not have been the best way to start a conversation. If you really want to help someone, you don't start by insulting them because it immediately puts them on the defensive. Yes, it may have been true. However, it is still a backhanded insult.
    No it's not a backhanded insult. It is a fact. A fact you can either swallow, or behave like this douchenozzle did toward.
    A backhanded insult implies the user held a subjective opinion on the matter and used their view to carefully outline their superiority. This is not subjective.

    Honestly it's not even criticism!?! Does no one know how to take a pill anymore!?

    Tell you what, I have an exercise for everyone here. Go on Deviantart or a blog site, or somewhere to procure creative works... and make an account. And just do as best you can on a few bits of work while in every description box, ask for comments and join a 'comment group' (if you can't do get anyone to comment feel free to send them my way and I can show you 'critisism'). I want you to KNOW what criticism looks like. Learn to see it. Learn to deal with it, and the utter bile that will torrent forth if you dare conflict with anothers views on correctly doing something.

    Because I know what it actually looks like.

    This? THIS!? I'd be singing this OP's praises from a Swiss mountainside. If someone offers to help you, no matter how backhanded you 'think' they're being, the general rule is to say 'no thanks' or 'oh I didn't realize I was doing it wrong, if you have some tips I could use it.'
    Not 'mind your own fucking business'. Because that, is what we know in the biz, as a gigantic baby.
    A gigantic, defensive, baby. And is inexcusable. You don't fly off the handle at someone who's observed something negative in your abilities. That's what fucktards on reality TV do.

    I don't help anyone anymore unless they ask for it for this reason though, because that's all that happens(back when I did lfr, that is now a thing of the past) asking happened once. A lovely tank who had not been on Leishen before and was nervous, and since I was setting the 4 groups and giving people a quick run down, he whispered me for some help, which I was all too happy to give. He did great, I hope that guy went on to a good raiding guild. Humility will get you everywhere.
    Quote Originally Posted by savutitus View Post
    Yeah, it's always WAR WAR WAR untill..BY ALL THAT IS HOLY DO YOU SEE THAT ENEMY OVER THERE?? GLORIOUS LOOT!!!!!

  7. #107
    Herald of the Titans Ghostpanther's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yjmark View Post
    That may not have been the best way to start a conversation. If you really want to help someone, you don't start by insulting them because it immediately puts them on the defensive. Yes, it may have been true. However, it is still a backhanded insult.

    If you would've started the conversation with something like "I have a warlock too, and I might be able to give you some tips on improving your DPS if you are interested". It might turn out different. A majority of the time I offer to help people, I get positive responses.
    I agree with this. Excellent point.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    Unwanted help is unwanted help. Or are you the one who decides what is unwanted and what is not? Stop meddling.
    No. As Normie said, there is a world of difference between the two scenarios. Stop being difficult.

    I don't want you to tell me the tactics. Especially not publicly like I don't understand how a game for 12 year olds work and emberass me and hurt my feelings.
    He was not proposing telling *you* the tactics. He is not implying to the public that *you* don't understand how the game works. He is talking to a collective 24 people of whom you are but one, and as an adult, the onus is on you to realise that if you already know the tactics, then you are free to ignore him.

    He is still responsible for ensuring that he delivers the message in an appropriate manner, but having a raid leader (even if it isn't the tool designated one) use the raid chat to help co-ordinate a raid (even LFR) is expected, normal behaviour.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    The OP didn't say "Pfaphfard let me help you with your DPS you won't be so bad after I show you what to do". He just stated a fact and then asked if that person wanted help.
    No, he didn't "just state a fact". He did so in a douchy manner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    Obviously some see that as an insult and some don't.
    Obviously some have EQ and others don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    You also don't always have to be constructive either.
    Well if you expect a civil response, being constructive rather than contemptuous goes a long way....

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    But whatever. If this is the opinion of so many then I won't be doing my best anymore in content where I don't belong (according to some) and where I only come for some quest items (I'm not really enjoying the experience anyway so I rather go afk half the time).
    That's about the weakest justification I've ever heard. Seriously, it seems to me you are looking for any excuse to slack and let other people do the work for you.

    This isn't about people doing their best or not. It's about how to talk to deal with people in LFR (which draws from talking to people in general). I realise that there are a lot fail players in LFR, and to be honest there are times where I am sorely tempted to tell those losers how pathetic they are. But I also realise that to do so would make me a bigger tool than them. Two wrongs do not make a right.

    I am not afraid to use raid chat when it is necessary (I have a fair amount of raidleading experience), but I am first and foremost always respectful of my audience, no matter how bad they may be at playing the game. The only people I have no respect for are those who aren't trying (basically the afkers or the person topping the dps meter by ignoring adds eg Horidon).

    I have generally found the raid to respond very well to helpful instructions. If the OP had tried to be genuinely helpful without the insult, I believe he may have got a very different response. Even so, there will be people who don't respond well even to the best intentioned "help" but it's hardly fair to label the entire LFR community as terrible because of a small minority....

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    Says someone who insulted multiple people multiple times in this thread already. And says it to someone who just states a fact and offers help.
    I never insulted anyone. I am simply stating honest facts....

  9. #109
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post

    I never insulted anyone. I am simply stating honest facts....
    Do you have actual evidence for your claims? No? Well then you merely stated your opinion, nothing more, nothing less.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aqua View Post
    If someone offers to help you, no matter how backhanded you 'think' they're being, the general rule is to say 'no thanks'
    This is good advice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aqua View Post
    or 'oh I didn't realize I was doing it wrong, if you have some tips I could use it.'
    Not such good advice. If you have reason to believe that you are being trolled or made fun of, or baited, then it may be better to just leave it at "no thanks".

    Quote Originally Posted by Aqua View Post
    Not 'mind your own fucking business'. Because that, is what we know in the biz, as a gigantic baby.
    A gigantic, defensive, baby. And is inexcusable. You don't fly off the handle at someone who's observed something negative in your abilities. That's what fucktards on reality TV do.
    Whether or not the OP realises it, his opening was offensive. He did not need to mention the line about doing less dps than the tank. That comment added zero value, and potentially was just a criticism with an aim to hurt the person on the receiving end. While a "no thanks" might have been the safest response, there are a lot of people who would have been deserving of the "F*** off!" resp

    Quote Originally Posted by Aqua View Post
    I don't help anyone anymore unless they ask for it for this reason though, because that's all that happens(back when I did lfr, that is now a thing of the past) asking happened once. A lovely tank who had not been on Leishen before and was nervous, and since I was setting the 4 groups and giving people a quick run down, he whispered me for some help, which I was all too happy to give. He did great, I hope that guy went on to a good raiding guild. Humility will get you everywhere.
    I hear you. Ultimately it's just not worth it in LFR. You're never going to see the person again. Odds are it will reduce your own performance, and without follow up is unlikely to benefit the person in the future. That being said, if I notice someone from my realm really struggling, I might take an interest and /w them after the instance is done.

    I would not open with something like the OP did though. It would be more like:

    "Heya, so I noticed you seemed to be struggling a bit in LFR there. If you'd like, I'd be more than happy to give you a few friendly tips and pointers that might help a bit "

    Ofc it's a lot easier when someone asks you for help and I have done that a few times as well - not really from LFR that I remember, but from world bosses and pug raids.

  11. #111
    I am Murloc! prwraith's Avatar
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    Frankly these forums and the wow official forums need to stop protecting bad players. Imo.

    I'd gladly return to a reputation system, ie if the whole server knows your a freaking troll, and a terrible player, who sucks at everything your class is supposed to do. Then you're fair game for naming and shaming.

    It's not like wow is even hard, you can practically do LFR while missing an arm.

  12. #112
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    Again, POSTITIVE REINFORCEMENT is the answer. Nobody will respond well to "Hey, you're doing less DPS than the tank", because that's essentially the same as saying "You are terrible". It's no surprise you got the answer you did, because even if you were trying to be sincere, it came off as insulting. Think of it like a job. Would you tell an underperformer "You're slower than the intern" and expect them to take it well? Of course not, so why would somebody respond well to that kind of language in a game?
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  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by veehro View Post
    I have noticed this in my last LFR. When I told a fellow warlock "hey , you're doing less dps then the tank, if you want I can help you with your rotation".

    The reply i've got was "mind your own fucking business".

    I mean this is a game and it shouldn't be compared to real life where if 3 people try to move a couch and one doesn't put any effort in it, as long as the couch gets moved nobody should pick on the third guy who is just pretending to move it.

    But honestly I don't understand why every single rule in the game is protecting the people who don't try to improve. LFR has rewards that makes raiders interested enough to clear it and thus boost players who do have the gear but don't have the skill to do it.
    This encourages people to be lazy and i don't understand why.

    When the new patch came out and raiders stoped doing lfr as they were interested in soo , i was amused to see my friend wiping again and again at throne of thunder because there werent enough raiders to carry everebody.

    Oh well i digress. My point is, that i can hardly imagine how these people play LoL or dota2. If they can't stand even the most minor criticism, how can they stand the down right insults coming from a dota 2 team when you underperform
    It can all be in the approach. Some players are such delicate flowers that the mere comparison to another player in a negative manner could have been all it took to set them off. Also maybe was struggling to comprehend his basic rotation and your comment set him off.

    We had a healer in guild that just was not getting it. I set him up with a talk with a US 30 or higher guild player of the same class. Rather than talk to the person who was kind enough to volunteer some time towards his improvement he spouted off a bunch of rubish about how we were all picking on him and quit guild. So that was me lesson in trying to be nice and coach.





    There is no bad RNG only bad L2P

  14. #114
    General rule, u don't advise a stranger. If u r a raid leader or team leader, or a veteran player in the group, u have the right to give pointer's for improvement. Even that is up to how good a relationship u r with other members. So, reply when u r asked. not a hard theory to understand.

    Why would that said player with dps want to improve? he may have completely different goal, like pet battles, rep farming, mount collection etc. If he was targeting for real raiding, he would improve by his own. It's human nature, that you don't move unless there is a need for it. Thats why telling him to improve DPS was met with flamed response. Don't worry about LFR, the boss will go down eventually, there is determination buff, with about 5/6 stacks toughest boss even looks like kitten. So improving a LFR raider's dps is kinda moot point.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Aqua View Post
    Tell you what, I have an exercise for everyone here. Go on Deviantart or a blog site, or somewhere to procure creative works... and make an account. And just do as best you can on a few bits of work while in every description box, ask for comments and join a 'comment group' (if you can't do get anyone to comment feel free to send them my way and I can show you 'critisism'). I want you to KNOW what criticism looks like. Learn to see it. Learn to deal with it, and the utter bile that will torrent forth if you dare conflict with anothers views on correctly doing something.
    *Joins website asking for feedback from people he believes to have skills and good advice. Expects to have harsh and helpful criticism as he seeks to improve.*

    ------

    *Carrying around notebook, a drawing falls out. Random stranger says, "your lines are really bad, I can help you be better."*

    ------

    The difference in these two scenarios is that criticism from your website is both wanted and coming from peers that the artist would respect enough to take their feedback. The random stranger has done/shown absolutely nothing to warrant their advice/criticism.

    Sure, your lines are really bad, but who is this guy to tell you anything? Especially when you have an entire website community to help you along, this stranger can go fuck himself.

    They're not the same situations.

    Just sayin'

  16. #116
    that's the casual way of playing no one gives a flying fuck to improve their skill as long as they get that random free epic for standing around

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Compstance View Post
    *Joins website asking for feedback from people he believes to have skills and good advice. Expects to have harsh and helpful criticism as he seeks to improve.*

    ------

    *Carrying around notebook, a drawing falls out. Random stranger says, "your lines are really bad, I can help you be better."*

    ------

    The difference in these two scenarios is that criticism from your website is both wanted and coming from peers that the artist would respect enough to take their feedback. The random stranger has done/shown absolutely nothing to warrant their advice/criticism.

    Sure, your lines are really bad, but who is this guy to tell you anything? Especially when you have an entire website community to help you along, this stranger can go fuck himself.

    They're not the same situations.

    Just sayin'
    well said! why don't ppl understand that no matter what, an advise from a stranger is almost always raises suspicion first, so you go defensive

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Compstance View Post
    Combat, that's a stupid fucking post.

    If you'd like, we can discuss the topic further on why you're wrong.
    This is false. Combats statement can be seen as a fact. You can quote damage meters. What you said was totally subjective and on the extreme side of "advice."

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Do you have actual evidence for your claims? No? Well then you merely stated your opinion, nothing more, nothing less.
    Taken from Wikipedia

    An insult is an expression, statement (or sometimes behavior) which is considered degrading, offensive and impolite. Insults (sometimes called "cracks" "remarks" or one-liners)[1] may be intentional or accidental. An insult may be factual, but at the same time pejorative, such as the word "inbred".
    So first up, we have established that just because something is a fact, does not preclude it from being an insult.

    Now, something that is apparent from this thread is that some people will find that opening line to be an insult, and others won't - Fact.

    The ability to understand why someone else would find something insulting, regardless of whether you personally find the comment insulting, is by definition, a function of emotional intelligence.

    Therefore if someone wants to argue that the OP's comment cannot be interrpretted as an insult leaves 2 possibilities:

    1) the person either cannot empathise with the person who perceived the insult (lack of emotional intelligence).
    or
    2) the person is intentionally feigning ignorance (being disingenuous) in order to argue the point.

    Simple logic.

  20. #120
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    Again, POSTITIVE REINFORCEMENT is the answer. Nobody will respond well to "Hey, you're doing less DPS than the tank", because that's essentially the same as saying "You are terrible". It's no surprise you got the answer you did, because even if you were trying to be sincere, it came off as insulting. Think of it like a job. Would you tell an underperformer "You're slower than the intern" and expect them to take it well? Of course not, so why would somebody respond well to that kind of language in a game?
    Call it being blunt, stating the obvious shouldn't be considered an insult, not to mention in context to the average mentality of the wow community, the op was quite polite. A simple no thank you or no would have been fine, but fuck off is an underserved answer.

    So you wouldn't drop hints for a colleague that he is performing poorly and his job might be in danger if he doesn't get better?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post

    So first up, we have established that just because something is a fact, does not preclude it from being an insult.

    Now, something that is apparent from this thread is that some people will find that opening line to be an insult, and others won't - Fact.

    The ability to understand why someone else would find something insulting, regardless of whether you personally find the comment insulting, is by definition, a function of emotional intelligence.

    Therefore if someone wants to argue that the OP's comment cannot be interrpretted as an insult leaves 2 possibilities:

    1) the person either cannot empathise with the person who perceived the insult (lack of emotional intelligence).
    or
    2) the person is intentionally feigning ignorance (being disingenuous) in order to argue the point.

    Simple logic.
    Or they are just being too thin skinned and can't deal with such things properly, you chose to perceive it as an insult I don't, something as trivial as that can hardly be called an insult. Otherwise people would have to be offended all the time.
    Last edited by Combatbulter; 2013-09-25 at 01:39 PM.
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