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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Sahugani View Post
    Since I'm german and we have universal healthcare for years, I don`t really get what the problem with obamacare is.
    Germany has a better implementation.

    I was against that sort of system here because I simply don't trust the government to run large bureaucracies. They have shown time and time again that they are not good at it and I don't want to hand them more power over our lives.

    However... that is a theoretical belief. In practice I have two experiences with family members afflicted by serious diseases (cancer) who cannot afford health care. They are allowed to *almost* die and, when it gets bad enough, they get emergency care. By that time it is too late. No preventative care is offered.

    Seeing this happen twice I am willing to put my philosophical beliefs aside and accept this law (as if I had a choice). However, I can't stand how it is being implemented. Why do insurance companies exist? To measure risk and put a number on it. With this new law they are made irrelevant overnight; there is no more risk to measure and they are guaranteed a huge customer base.

    So why do they continue to exist? I think we all know the answer to that. So we are forced to subsidize this middle-man who brings nothing to the table. Crap. It pisses me off.

  2. #22
    Banned Kellhound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felya420 View Post
    No, money that goes to lobbying and CEOs is a company cost, not profit. Profit is what comes after subtracting salaries, including CEO's salary.
    If they increase their health care outpay costs by, say $1 billion, they can extract an extra $200 million in profit. They can then justify raising rates to cover the $1.2 billion increase.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ptwonline View Post
    How do you think they increased their profits before? They raised the prices. Why do you think health care is so expensive in the US?

    Now there is going to be more actual competition, and unless companies (illegally) collude together to fix prices, there should be a price drop as people shop around for a better deal.

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    Large employers are supposed to give their employees health care insurance. The federal government is a large employer.
    They increase profits by cutting costs, not increasing them. An Old Boy Network fixing prices? In the US? Never!

  3. #23
    cruz is curretnly filibustering until he collapses. Cruz alongside Rand Paul might save our country yet.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    They increase profits by cutting costs, not increasing them. An Old Boy Network fixing prices? In the US? Never!
    Um, they most certainly increse profits by increases prices. Just look at some of their pricelists. The markup should not be reaching thousands of percent.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by twelvethirty View Post
    Cruz alongside Rand Paul might save our country yet.
    Hysterical.

    The issues raised in this thread is an excellent example of the problems with healthcare being a for-profit industry.

    But hey, free market is the best way to go right? Cause nothing could possibly go wrong with that.

    EDIT -- Give who the OP is and the tone of the original post, this is hardly going to be a worthwhile thread. The funny thing about Obamacare is so many people are so passionate about it without actually having either read it or read enough about it to know what it actually is. It's just a bunch of talking points spewed forth.
    Last edited by Lenonis; 2013-09-24 at 08:37 PM.
    Forum badass alert:
    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana Violence View Post
    It's called resistance / rebellion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana Violence View Post
    Also, one day the tables might turn.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    It's not. You're misinformed.
    Paul’s proposal — outlawing any special exemptions for government employees — would mean all federal workers would have to purchase health insurance on the new Obamacare exchanges instead of getting taxpayer-funded subsidies. Some critics say those subsidies amount to special treatment. The Obamacare health insurance exchange opens Oct 1.

    “My amendment says basically that everybody including Justice Roberts — who seems to be such a fan of Obamacare — gets it too,” Paul told TheDC by phone on Sunday from Mackinac Island in Michigan, where he won a straw poll of potential Republican candidates for president in 2016.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptwonline View Post
    Um, they most certainly increse profits by increases prices. Just look at some of their pricelists. The markup should not be reaching thousands of percent.
    Insurance companies make a profit by cutting their costs, not by increasing how much they pay out. It is the health care providers that maximize profit by charging more, now both may have a reason to increase costs....

  8. #28
    Real question: If Obamacare is so bad why not let it pass then fail. Republicans would easily take the Senate and the White house if it failed as bad as they say it will.

  9. #29
    This is a good video I found on just the overall issues. Regardless of Obamacare, he talks about the major problems in the US health system. And that is a very complicated problem. A lot of issues that feed into each other.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by lockedout View Post
    Paul’s proposal — outlawing any special exemptions for government employees — would mean all federal workers would have to purchase health insurance on the new Obamacare exchanges instead of getting taxpayer-funded subsidies. Some critics say those subsidies amount to special treatment. The Obamacare health insurance exchange opens Oct 1.

    “My amendment says basically that everybody including Justice Roberts — who seems to be such a fan of Obamacare — gets it too,” Paul told TheDC by phone on Sunday from Mackinac Island in Michigan, where he won a straw poll of potential Republican candidates for president in 2016.
    This implies that some people that work for the federal government are not covered by some parts of the ACA. It doesn't, at all, imply that "the federal government is exempt from Obamacare".

  11. #31
    Titan Lenonis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puremallace View Post
    Real question: If Obamacare is so bad why not let it pass then fail.
    Because the people in charge know it won't fail. It might not be great, but the mix of good and bad will likely be close to a wash. Thus they want to kill it before it goes into play. A secondary theory is they are hoping to scare people into believing it's all bad so when it does go into place good old confirmation bias will kick in.
    Forum badass alert:
    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana Violence View Post
    It's called resistance / rebellion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana Violence View Post
    Also, one day the tables might turn.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Lenonis View Post
    Because the people in charge know it won't fail. It might not be great, but the mix of good and bad will likely be close to a wash. Thus they want to kill it before it goes into play. A secondary theory is they are hoping to scare people into believing it's all bad so when it does go into place good old confirmation bias will kick in.
    The other potential explanation is that they're a bunch of fucking children that have settled on just shouting "NO!".

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Puremallace View Post
    Real question: If Obamacare is so bad why not let it pass then fail. Republicans would easily take the Senate and the White house if it failed as bad as they say it will.
    I just want it to stay so we can finally see what all the fuss was about. You can't read a whole novel but skip the last chapter, no matter how terrible the book was up to that point.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Sahugani View Post
    Basically this.

    @OP Did you actually think before trying to bash obamacare?

    Since I'm german and we have universal healthcare for years, I don`t really get what the problem with obamacare is.
    That isn't entirely true. The federal government employees a lot of people in part-time, temp, and non-benefit full time positions that aren't eligible for retirement or health coverage. The majority of their employees are covered, but not all, and the question is, why not?

    There are plenty of places to research what problems have with it, and they come from both the left and right sides of the argument.

  15. #35
    Titan Lenonis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    The other potential explanation is that they're a bunch of fucking children that have settled on just shouting "NO!".
    I'm pretty sure the more established GOP politicians realize that strategy is backfiring horribly at this point. You can tell by the split in the current debate where the more freshman tea party types are shouting "NO!" but the more established members have basically said they will pass the continuing resolution without the defund Obamacare piece if the senate sends it back to them.
    Forum badass alert:
    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana Violence View Post
    It's called resistance / rebellion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana Violence View Post
    Also, one day the tables might turn.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Puremallace View Post
    Real question: If Obamacare is so bad why not let it pass then fail. Republicans would easily take the Senate and the White house if it failed as bad as they say it will.
    Seems like shooting yourself in the foot to "prove your point" isn't the best way to do it. I don't see many congressman becoming homeless for 5 years to show us that long term homelessness is a problem that needs to be addressed.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    This implies that some people that work for the federal government are not covered by some parts of the ACA. It doesn't, at all, imply that "the federal government is exempt from Obamacare".
    Federal employees get a 75% subsidy.

  18. #38
    As far as I am concerned, as bad as Obamacare is, there are still 2 things even worse than that.

    1) The old healthcare setup we had before Obamacare and...
    2) The companies approach to bypassing Obamacare in an attempt to avoid their responsibilities to their employees further which is even worse than #1.

    So basically, the only things worse than Obamacare is everything we have tried before it along with the companies attempt to avoid it to maintain the old system.

    What would be better than Obamacare? Easy, take a look at virtually any other first world nation that has a functioning healthcare system. Take your pick, they all are better.

    That is the big saving grace of Obamacare, it is still a step in a direction (which is still better than staying still like we have been on this issue), it is a horrible step and painful step but it is a step that FORCES you take the next one into what it should be. The Irony to this step is it is giving the Republican party exactly what they asked for and seeing just how bad it really is in practice. The sad thing is both parties are mostly republican in nature now though.

    Do I like Obamacare? Fuck no!
    But I like what we had before it even worse and it shows the American people more closely just how fucked up the American business system is becoming when they go to such extremes to avoid doing their jobs to their employees who support them and keep them running.

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    Off topic though.

    Notice how they tried all this to stop Obamacare and even passing laws to defund it, but none of them have the balls to try this to defund the NSA or any other host of issues that actually need it more so and just pay them lip service. That alone should tell you how these politicians feel about these issues when they just talk about it but refuse to attempt to pass laws to defund it.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Because socialism is literally Satan.
    You mean kinda like what they taught in Elementary school with a religious mix.

    Socialism is Potential Satan, Capitalism is Kinetic Satan or Satan in motion.
    After Capitalism has ran its course and stopped, Crony Capitalism is the result of the work.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    If they increase their health care outpay costs by, say $1 billion, they can extract an extra $200 million in profit. They can then justify raising rates to cover the $1.2 billion increase.
    Why wouldn't they have been doing it this whole time? There is nothing new created with a 20% cap, that would cause insurance companies to increase prices where they didn't before. Why would a 20% cap change anything int his regard? It doesn't change a previously altruistic corporation into a greedy one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Puremallace View Post
    Real question: If Obamacare is so bad why not let it pass then fail. Republicans would easily take the Senate and the White house if it failed as bad as they say it will.
    The same reason the shot down is happening as the start for insurance exchanges begins next week. The worst thing that could happen to republican, is for Americans to actually like them. This is why the race is on...
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

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