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  1. #21
    BRD having a healing and res LB is a _MASSIVE_ boon for the class and for any raid group containing one.

    We already have dps who can do single target LB (and frankly, melee wouldn't ever be brought if a ranged chr had it).
    We already have dps who can do multi-target aoe LB.
    We already have healers who can do heal/res LB.
    We don't have another dps who can do heal/res LB.
    I'm with this guy. Any group will already have plenty of DPS limit breaks in some for or another, but having another potential raid-saving Healer LB3 or something seems like a way better deal for any group.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Venaliter View Post
    *ONE* time I was thankful I had it. Fixed it for you.

    Yes, it's stupid. One more common sense flaw in a game overflowing with common-sense flaws. They've basically removed limit breaks from one class for no good reason.
    You're wrong.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Delekii View Post
    You're wrong.
    Yes, I am. In a raid/group situation, it could be a boon if both healers went down and the bard is still up and you have lvl 3 limit break. The criteria is pretty specific for it to be better then a normal DPS limit break, but it's not impossible.
    Last edited by Venaliter; 2013-10-02 at 08:49 AM.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Venaliter View Post
    Yes, I am. In a raid/group situation, it could be a boon if both healers went down and the bard is still up and you have lvl 3 limit break. The criteria is pretty specific for it to be better then a normal DPS limit break, but it's not impossible.
    Healers can continue to heal while the bard uses limitbreak, thereby not subjecting the heal targets to 2.5 seconds without healing, and potentially removing any range-based issues where the healer has to move away from their healing targets to use raise on their targets.

    And, all it has to do to be better than a "normal dps limit break", is have the potential to be useful. You only need one DPS capable of any given "normal" limit-break.

    Like I said earlier;
    We already have dps who can do single target LB (and frankly, melee wouldn't ever be brought if a ranged chr had it).
    We already have dps who can do multi-target aoe LB.
    We already have healers who can do heal/res LB.
    We don't have another dps who can do heal/res LB.
    Bard is literally the only class in the game that is alone in its limit break niche. For a single target limit break, you have monk/drg. For tank limit break you have 2 tanks in almost all content. For aoe limit break you have thm/blm. For healers with healer limit break, you have whm/sch. For dps with healer limit break, you have BRD.

    When you need to use a healer limit break, you are almost definitely also in need of healing. It's all well and good that everyone gets full-healed when the limitbreak lands, but if the tank dies in that time, it's still a wipe. Furthermore, the limitbreak has a substantial animation lock after completion, leaving the caster unable to perform actions. Again, it's more likely that being unable to heal for that period will cause more potential damage to the raid to another couple of seconds of missed dps.

    You're right - in simple, low risk content, it would be cool to have a dps limit break to make stuff go faster. In situations that matter, having a single DPS that can use a healer limit break is incredible, given that your other dps limit breaks are already covered.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Delekii View Post
    shnip
    Okay, a few things. "thereby not subjecting the heal targets to 2.5 seconds without healing, and potentially removing any range-based issues where the healer has to move away from their healing targets to use raise on their targets."

    The base cast time of Cure I and Cure II is 2.0 seconds. The base cast time of Pulse of Life is ALSO, 2.0 seconds, with NO apparent range limitation. So, with No cast time difference, no mana cost, and infinite range, When does a single cast of Cure I or Cure II becomes better than a cast of Pulse of Life? Mind you that a Healer will have more Healing magic potency (This is an ACTUAL stat) than a BRD, making the heal more effective. Rather, I think the problem is that the BRD's primary stat does not benefit it's LB. I think a Ranged Single Target LB would have been best.

    Touching in your second point, If a DPS with a healing LB is fine, then where's our DPS with a tanking LB? or a Tank/healer with a DPS LB? In yet another game, the Ranged Physical class, is the bastard child, not quite fitting in. And it WILL cause issues later on.

    Also: I swear to god, if you just selectively read the last part, while ignoring the points I made about how useless the bard's LB is... You merely prove that there's no reasoning with you, and that you're really just here to argue mindlessly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Winstonwolfe View Post
    In other words, he's worried about how sharp your bayonet is when you are firing RPG's.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Sandwrong View Post
    The base cast time of Cure I and Cure II is 2.0 seconds. The base cast time of Pulse of Life is ALSO, 2.0 seconds,
    The GCD is 2.5 seconds.

    with NO apparent range limitation.
    Pulse of life definitely has a range limitation.

    So, with No cast time difference, no mana cost, and infinite range, When does a single cast of Cure I or Cure II becomes better than a cast of Pulse of Life?
    When the healer is concentrating on spam healing the tank until the appropriate time to use pulse of life. Bards can delay GCDs at minimal dps loss to use raise JUST have bomb explosions, for example, while healers can't. Furthermore, while the cast time of pulse of life is 2 seconds, there is a significant animation lock following the cast that means you can't use abilities or move for a further 1.5-2 seconds following.

    Mind you that a Healer will have more Healing magic potency (This is an ACTUAL stat) than a BRD, making the heal more effective. Rather, I think the problem is that the BRD's primary stat does not benefit it's LB. I think a Ranged Single Target LB would have been best.
    Pulse of life healing is percentage based; tier 3 is a 100% heal.

    Touching in your second point, If a DPS with a healing LB is fine, then where's our DPS with a tanking LB? or a Tank/healer with a DPS LB? In yet another game, the Ranged Physical class, is the bastard child, not quite fitting in.
    If the tank LB was actually useful, I would agree with you. However, even then, the tank loses very little by using the tank LB - they are not limited by cast times or needing to keep people alive. Tank or healer with DPS limit break would be fine, and preferable in cases where there is a dps burn that doesn't necessitate too much healing (it would be nice if healers could LB on titan heart, for eg).

    And it WILL cause issues later on.
    If it isn't causing issues now, why would it cause issues later? The only reason why it would ever cause issues is if your raid is inappropriately stacking bards to the exclusion of other dps, and if that is the case, it is not an issue with limit breaks, but a systemic balance issue. Let me put it very clearly; if bards had single target limit break right now, there would be no melee dps in any group who's primary goal is efficiency.

    Also: I swear to god, if you just selectively read the last part, while ignoring the points I made about how useless the bard's LB is... You merely prove that there's no reasoning with you, and that you're really just here to argue mindlessly.
    The bard's LB is not useless, so you don't actually have a point.

    Ultimately, what you are asking for is to give up a unique capacity in order to appropriate a non-unique capacity that is almost guaranteed to be covered by another member of your party on any challenging content that might ask for it. This is pretty much the definition of shooting yourself in the foot to save your face.
    Last edited by Delekii; 2013-10-03 at 09:24 AM.

  7. #27
    There seem to be a few misconceptions about Bards in this thread.

    1. They are a support class, if your looking for pure DPS you are in the wrong place.
    2. A group healing limit break is insanely powerful and make Bards a must for end game instance groups
    3. All other limit break possibilities are covered by other classes, aoe, single target dmg etc.

    They are the way they are for a reason.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Boshtastic View Post
    There seem to be a few misconceptions about Bards in this thread.

    1. They are a support class, if your looking for pure DPS you are in the wrong place.
    2. A group healing limit break is insanely powerful and make Bards a must for end game instance groups
    3. All other limit break possibilities are covered by other classes, aoe, single target dmg etc.

    They are the way they are for a reason.
    There's a few logical fallacies in your post.
    A) All classes must have roughly equivalent DPS. Different niches is fine, comparable DPS is mandatory.
    b) A group healing limit break, esp. one that can resurrect dead healers, is probably TOO powerful. Mandatory classes are not fun. Another job should probably receive this limit break when new ones are added. Also, bards randomly get a healing limit break for being a pugilist/archer? Does this make sense?

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Venaliter View Post
    There's a few logical fallacies in your post.
    A) All classes must have roughly equivalent DPS. Different niches is fine, comparable DPS is mandatory.
    b) A group healing limit break, esp. one that can resurrect dead healers, is probably TOO powerful. Mandatory classes are not fun. Another job should probably receive this limit break when new ones are added. Also, bards randomly get a healing limit break for being a pugilist/archer? Does this make sense?
    Point A) is easy, why MUST they have equivalent DPS? they have different jobs to do.
    Point B) Who cares how powerful it is? Its only PvE its not like anyone is being treated unfairly......

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Boshtastic View Post
    Point A) is easy, why MUST they have equivalent DPS? they have different jobs to do.
    Okay guys, since this is Bindings turn 5, we're only bringing Black mages. And one bard. We need the DPS.

    That's why.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Venaliter View Post
    Okay guys, since this is Bindings turn 5, we're only bringing Black mages. And one bard. We need the DPS.

    That's why.
    Group composition is entirely up to you. thats half the fun, working out what works. If all the classes were equal it would be so boring.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Boshtastic View Post
    Group composition is entirely up to you. thats half the fun, working out what works. If all the classes were equal it would be so boring.
    Group composition is only up to you when dps is more or less equal. When one class does 1k and the other does 1.7, you take, and stack, the 1.7.

    Note: I have no idea what classes are the highest DPS classes in FFXIV, I assumed black mages, because that's most often what I see pull from the tank. The point is the same whether it's a black mage or not.

  13. #33
    Bards are apparently the highest DPS in the game right now, but it's not sure considering how skewy parsers are at the moment. They do have the pro of having the entirety of their damage ranged and instant, though.

    I personally like the idea of them having the healing LB. SE might also have done it because of how strong right now bards are (both in dps, utility and mobility) in a way to not give them absolutely everything, but I doubt it.

    I do agree it makes little sense, however.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Venaliter View Post
    Group composition is only up to you when dps is more or less equal. When one class does 1k and the other does 1.7, you take, and stack, the 1.7.

    Note: I have no idea what classes are the highest DPS classes in FFXIV, I assumed black mages, because that's most often what I see pull from the tank. The point is the same whether it's a black mage or not.
    If that were true then every group would be the same....... and they aren't.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Boshtastic View Post
    If that were true then every group would be the same....... and they aren't.
    Random dungeon finder is....wait for it...random. And it was YOU who said DPS didn't have to be equal. I illustrated it has to be at least close. It is my suspicion DPS among the different jobs is pretty good, except for a few outliers. I disagree with Bards having a healing limit break. It sucks in groups but it's probably too powerful in raids.

  16. #36
    Remember guys, we're not talking about raiding here. My original post was referring to me and my three friends running instances together. 4 people total. You don't have all limit break dps types covered when you only have 2 dps, and one of those dps has a healing limit break.

  17. #37
    Remember guys, we're not talking about raiding here. My original post was referring to me and my three friends running instances together. 4 people total. You don't have all limit break dps types covered when you only have 2 dps, and one of those dps has a healing limit break.
    I'm trying to imagine a 4-man encounter where not having all the Limit Break types covered is actually an issue.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Venaliter View Post
    Random dungeon finder is....wait for it...random. And it was YOU who said DPS didn't have to be equal. I illustrated it has to be at least close. It is my suspicion DPS among the different jobs is pretty good, except for a few outliers. I disagree with Bards having a healing limit break. It sucks in groups but it's probably too powerful in raids.
    I know I said that and I still do say that, what of it? The rest of the post doesn't make sense to me. Is English your first language?

    Mod Warning: Please don't be rude to other posters.
    Last edited by Wynnyelle; 2013-10-09 at 02:31 PM.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    I'm trying to imagine a 4-man encounter where not having all the Limit Break types covered is actually an issue.
    Demon Wall in an early AK run could be problematic with no DPS limit break. 'Early' meaning when most of your group has not had a chance to gear up. Otherwise I'm pulling a blank.
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  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by aikoyamamato View Post
    Demon Wall in an early AK run could be problematic with no DPS limit break. 'Early' meaning when most of your group has not had a chance to gear up. Otherwise I'm pulling a blank.
    I wouldn't really say it causes too much of a problem, but I've been in several groups where things weren't going so well but if we would of had a DPS LB it would of been over already. I think most people notice it when fights start dragging out and there isn't a way to activate that big burst to get it over with. In a group of good players it probably wouldn't make much of a difference, but I've been down to the bottom of the barrel mana wise a few times, and while being able to manage, was basically able to end the misery quickly with a DD LB.

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