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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    Oh please. The Nazgrim strat is dead simple....

    1) Don't hit him in Def Stance.
    2) Kill adds, Shamans first, then Arcweavers.
    3) Stay away from the axes.

    That means people need to do *3 things* and they are fine. Are you really arguing that s too complex??
    The problem is not that any one individual has to do the three things. The problem is that EVERYONE has to do (1), since even one person hitting the boss during defensive stance will cause most of the possible rage generation (3 rage, cooldown 1 sec).

    LFR works very poorly with mechanics where one or two people failing will screw over the raid.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
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  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    Except that if you don't DPS him in Defensive Stance, the group won't have enough DPS to kill him before the enrage.

    I don't know what you're ranting about otherwise. Until Blizzard nerfs Nazgrim's health or adds 3-5 minutes to the enrage timer (PLEASE GOD NO), the strategy is just wrong. It's not elitist to say it's just wrong.
    The reason he lasts so long when you don't do things right is that *he gets healed by the adds*. If only someone would kill them....

    In the case you outline the group has people who are terrible players. People who are auto attacking only or otherwise playing far below what they can do. And guess what? If your group has a lot of people who, with a 496 ilevel, can't do more than 50K DPS those people shouldn't proceed.

    A large part of the problem with LFR is that Blizzard does precisely what you want. Instead of tuning it so that people have to play basically right they tune it so that half the raid can play poorly, do minimal DPS and still win. See again my example of single person game - you don't have the play perfectly on an Easy setting but you can't just hit your basic attack over and over, stand in fire and win. That seems to be what you want... that people can just tunnel the boss, not worry about axes and win. That's poor game design.

  3. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    The reason he lasts so long when you don't do things right is that *he gets healed by the adds*. If only someone would kill them....
    I'm aware that he gets healed by the adds. However, even if he doesn't get healed by the adds, he will still be alive for the enrage if you DPS him only during battle and zerk stance. And it isn't even all that close. The good attempts I see with 0-2 stacks of determination, he is still at 10-20% or so when he enrages. And sadly I've seen a lot of attempts, good, bad, and otherwise.

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    The problem is not that any one individual has to do the three things. The problem is that EVERYONE has to do (1), since even one person hitting the boss during defensive stance will cause most of the possible rage generation (3 rage, cooldown 1 sec).

    LFR works very poorly with mechanics where one or two people failing will screw over the raid.
    Given that I've beaten him in groups where a couple of people did this you are wrong if by screw over the raid you mean wipe it. Does it hurt the group? Sure. Does it mean you wipe? No.

    Look, I get that LFR shouldn't have mechanics where 1 person of 25 making a mistake is a wipe, but neither should doing things wrong be something with no penalty whatsoever. The game TELLS you when he's moving to Def stance. If you've been told not to DPS him then, how hard is it to see the big alert in the middle of your screen and stop? I mean, I was told in Driver's Ed to stop my care at the red Stop sign... so I do. So does every one else. Stopping DPS on Naz is the WoW equivalent of doing that. Arguing you should be able to DPS him then is roughly the same as saying "Hey, I should be able to run Stop signs and not get in an accident!"
    Last edited by clevin; 2013-09-27 at 08:25 PM.

  5. #245
    Stood in the Fire QwertySham's Avatar
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    My first time (and only) time queuing for the 2nd wing of LFR SoO was a disaster. The first attempt was pulled early with a tank that just said "yolo!". Nobody went to towers except me and 1 other, but he came up later after I was spamming for help. Needless to say that attempt ended in a wipe. While we ran back and buffed up I explained the fight in pretty good detail and clearly. Nobody listened, apparently, so that ended in a wipe even sooner than the last attempt. I left after that because I knew it wasn't going anywhere.

    Usually I'm not the person to leave after only 2 wipes, but if I explain the fights and practically baby sit 24 other people every second of the fight and STILL nobody wants to listen and do the mechanics, then I leave.

    Some groups are better than others, think I got the worst. I'll give it a try again over the weekend, but I don't have high hopes.

  6. #246
    9 wipes on Nazgrim..... I was tanking with a guild group, mainly healers and a few dps. The queued dps just could not understand the shaman had to die. I have a ss of my brewmaster with 1.3m health....

    Its tough but i think its just first week "OMG WAT DO I DO IMA PUSH THE BUTTONS AND HIT THINGS".

    Im just going to stick with my guild Flex for a few more weeks to let people figure stuff out.

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    I'm aware that he gets healed by the adds. However, even if he doesn't get healed by the adds, he will still be alive for the enrage if you DPS him only during battle and zerk stance. And it isn't even all that close. The good attempts I see with 0-2 stacks of determination, he is still at 10-20% or so when he enrages. And sadly I've seen a lot of attempts, good, bad, and otherwise.
    So have I. And killed him.

    Your scenario still means that 2/3 of the players are doing poor DPS for even the minimum ilevel for SoO. You want to reward that by letting them win. I want to see them doing at least the basics right. Not perfectly, but basically right. After all, every single player in there has leveled that character ninety levels. Then geared the character well enough to be able to queue for SoO. At that point they should know the core spells to use when DPSing. All I'm asking is that they use those in a mostly correct rotation. It's LFR, they don't need to be using every ability precisely on cooldown, but I've seen mages, locks and hunters doing 30-50k dps. That's not even close to what those classes can do at 496 and no, I don't think they should be able to beat the boss when they're playing that poorly. They don't need to be pulling 100k+, but 60-80k is perfectly doable for someone who's basically competent.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by QwertySham View Post
    My first time (and only) time queuing for the 2nd wing of LFR SoO was a disaster. The first attempt was pulled early with a tank that just said "yolo!". Nobody went to towers except me and 1 other, but he came up later after I was spamming for help. Needless to say that attempt ended in a wipe. While we ran back and buffed up I explained the fight in pretty good detail and clearly. Nobody listened, apparently, so that ended in a wipe even sooner than the last attempt. I left after that because I knew it wasn't going anywhere.
    I do think the design of SoO is a bit odd for LFR. Some of the fights, like Galakras, have mechanics that aren't entirely obvious until you know them and require coordination ("Ok, you, me, and these other people will go to the tower"). On the other hand, this is basically Ji Kun 2.0 and like that fight, people will figure it out.

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    Given that I've beaten him in groups where a couple of people did this you are wrong if by screw over the raid you mean wipe it.
    Hmm. And here I was taking you at your word when you wrote

    That means people need to do *3 things* and they are fine.
    So apparently they don't need to do the first of those three things.

    Next time, could you give us some signal when your statements are going to be abandoned so quickly?
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  9. #249
    Maybe some of you, lfr heroes, will learn now - getting loot for afk was terrible design.
    You already have legendary for afking in LFR!!! Not enough? Blizzard should make more oneshot mechanisms - to learn lazy people.


    So many ppl are against lfr tool because it degrades - now so much qq cause you have to avoid some shit on ground ?
    Like babies crying for their candies.

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    Last edited by Nobleshield; 2013-09-27 at 10:08 PM.

  10. #250
    Pit Lord Odina's Avatar
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    For LFR what they should have done is give naz a really buffed up thorns aura in deff stance that is avoided by players in tank spec. You hit him while hes in def stance you get 3-4 shot. Would solve the issue of dps nailing him pretty fast and it would be really easy to see who was doing it.

    One of the biggest issues with LFR atm is one many of us said would happen when they announced flex. The raiders that were using LFR to fill in gaps etc are now running guild / friend group flex that gives a shot at better than lfr gear and lets you avoid the lfr players. Now what we are seing is a small amount of raiders go in (probably didnt get the gear in flex or reg raid for the week and trying to fill that gap) but overall there is a big gap in Ilvevl and peoepl that know the fights / over gear it compared to the past where LFR was the only option to try and fill yoru reg raid gear needs.

    Thus now there are less regular mode raiders in LFR and as such it has artificially gotten harder. There is nothign really hard about the LFR atm that wasnt there in the past but there is less buffer... now the fresh tuesday night run is in the same boat as the last minute alt and casual LFR Monday night run groups were with no raiders to buffer them through!

    "then don't lfr it wasnt designed for raiders" and so began the wipe fest!

  11. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    So have I. And killed him.

    Your scenario still means that 2/3 of the players are doing poor DPS for even the minimum ilevel for SoO. You want to reward that by letting them win. I want to see them doing at least the basics right. Not perfectly, but basically right. After all, every single player in there has leveled that character ninety levels. Then geared the character well enough to be able to queue for SoO. At that point they should know the core spells to use when DPSing. All I'm asking is that they use those in a mostly correct rotation. It's LFR, they don't need to be using every ability precisely on cooldown, but I've seen mages, locks and hunters doing 30-50k dps. That's not even close to what those classes can do at 496 and no, I don't think they should be able to beat the boss when they're playing that poorly. They don't need to be pulling 100k+, but 60-80k is perfectly doable for someone who's basically competent.
    The thing is that there is nothing that can be done to improve the DPS that a 25-man LFR group produces, aside from adding a determination buff.

    25 players is a fairly large sample and its performance will represent very well, on the average, the ability of players available to queue at that time. Strange things may happen like a group of a half dozen or dozen organized raiders might queue, but I pretty much never see that these days.

    The DPS that players are generating is, almost by definition, not a problem, since it can't be changed. The problem is the design of the encounter. The encounter has to be designed to accommodate what is available, not some imaginary "potential" that isn't available.

    You and many other people don't seem to understand that one of the things that in general can't be changed is player ability in encounters (in both LFR and more difficult raiding environments). Encounters are designed to the known (or at least expected) abilities of players. Because encounters are complex and because people do funny things, the design isn't always correct for its audience.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Odina View Post
    Thus now there are less regular mode raiders in LFR and as such it has artificially gotten harder. There is nothign really hard about the LFR atm that wasnt there in the past but there is less buffer... now the fresh tuesday night run is in the same boat as the last minute alt and casual LFR Monday night run groups were with no raiders to buffer them through!

    "then don't lfr it wasnt designed for raiders" and so began the wipe fest!
    That has not been my experience in LFR, that hot shit raiders were carrying the group. There are one or three hot shit raiders (who are disproportionately likely to be the assholes that get kicked after going into a rage about a wipe) and then there are the rest.

    It was that way before Flex; it's that way now. The only difference is that now the hot shit raiders are wearing a few pieces of Flex instead of Normal gear.

    People hugely overestimate the impact that Flex will have on LFR if it has any impact at all (I'm not sure it has had any).

    - - - Updated - - -

    No, we have. Adjustments are quite possible, we already have some LFR Nazgrim tweaks in the works, but we're seeing very reasonable wipe/completion rates on second wing SoO bosses. We're keeping a close eye on things.
    In regard to Shaman and Nazgrim, Bashiok is pretty much full of shit, especially given how hard some of the trash is.

  12. #252
    Have done lfr with 4 chars and it went quite smoothly.

    1st and 2nd - no wipe
    3rd and 4th - 0 to 1 wipe

    Gala and scorpion 0 to 1
    Shamans 2 to 3
    Nazgrim 1 to 2

    Never took more then 2hrs

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  13. #253
    I'm amazed people think LFR is tuned correctly. The "random afk/unskilled player messes up and wipes the raid" abilities need nerfed. I'm ok if they mess up and they die, but not when they mess up and it wipes the raid. I had 10 stacks of determination on galrakas. Even though i would tell people to stack up for p2 we got maybe 1/2 the raid stacked. Unless they nerfed that ball since the first day, it needs it. When you get 3 full strength balls in a row it's just brutal. 10 stacks of determination...

    I didn't even stay past 4 stacks of determination on the scorpion. Queued another time into Nazgrim. At least people can avoid the ravagers and they disappear so attacking in D stance isn't ALWAYS a wipe. At least good dps can sorta carry the fight.

    Flex is by FAR easier than LFR. I had fewer wipes in normal than I did in LFR on the first 2 bosses in that wing.

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    And then they say LFR is for people who don't have enough time for organized raiding . I've never raided 5,5 hours in one sitting in the years that I've raided.
    My one, and only full clear of Firelands was a pug group. 7pm -1am or so

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    LFR works very poorly with mechanics where one or two people failing will screw over the raid.
    Yet there are many examples where exactly that can happen, for example if your tanks don't know what to do (Megara and LS were both good examples)

    Folks simply need to learn these fights. They aren't rocket science, and are certainly no technically harder than prior bosses. The fact that folks can get past Protectors, yet fail on Nazgrim is simply a 'see the fight' issue.

    Besides, unless something is borked with the pooling mechanism, flex is actually by far the biggest enemy in LFR right now. Not only are 45-60+ minute queues extremely unfavorable, but they also actually increase the odds that a wipe or 2 means that your entire group is going to collapse.
    Last edited by melodramocracy; 2013-09-28 at 07:19 AM.
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  15. #255
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    Maybe I'm just a lucky S.O.B. (I have already won 6 items in LFR this tier), but I 1-shot every boss except for Nazgrim in LFR. As far as Nazgrim goes, the first time I attempted him the tanks were telling everyone to do the fight incorrectly so we wiped repeatedly before I left. Once the guildies I was running with and I hopped into another group where we explained it correctly we took the dude out no problem (granted the group had 2 stacks of determination when we got there). As far as I can tell it seems to be tuned pretty well. Perhaps later in the week you are more likely to run in to trouble since most players ran it Tuesday or Wednesday. I get that there are time constraints that some people who run LFR face, but being able to take out every boss in just one or two tries is kind of absurd. Its the last tier of the x-pac and a bit of progression seems okay to me.

    edit: I'd also like to note that all 3 of us were DPS, and during the first 2 days after reset the queue time was only 20 min or so.

  16. #256
    Stood in the Fire ArchmageAllayne's Avatar
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    harder than heroics for me got 7 stacks of determination on dark shamans -.-

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    So have I. And killed him.

    Your scenario still means that 2/3 of the players are doing poor DPS for even the minimum ilevel for SoO. You want to reward that by letting them win.
    .
    Actually, i just don't want to be fucked over because i get grouped with them.

    Guess what, there are a lot of poor players in this game. Since they released flex, most of the more skilled people are choosing to do that instead of lfr. They're not doing it and lfr, they're doing it instead. So now you've got a crap ton of poor players doing LFR together and failing. It's just awful. You can explain the fight. It doesn't matter. When you don't have control of who's in the party, mechanics can't make the fight twice as hard when 3-4 people mess up.

    LFR, in my opinion, is for gearing up alts and letting the poor players have content balanced around them.

  18. #258
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    I'm on my 4th toon who's done Nazgrim ... we have 3 stacks, it's a cheerful group of late night West Coaster and Aussies, and with 3 stacks and reasonably good effort, we wiped at maybe 30%.

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by Azrile View Post
    it pulls in the people with the highest corruption. Just tell your ´best´ players that they only need to soak one purple orb to get to 100 and they will get cleansed quicker. The bad players know nothing about absorbing purples so will stay at 75 the entire fight. Blizzard actually did this fight smart, the good players can proactively get cleansed fast.
    false, ive gotten a kill on Noru where i was at 100 corruption literally the whole fight( i picked up the very first orb and never got into the testing realm)

  20. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reclaimerstyx View Post
    false, ive gotten a kill on Noru where i was at 100 corruption literally the whole fight( i picked up the very first orb and never got into the testing realm)
    Yeah, Norushen LFR doesn't make any sense to me, but it doesn't strike me as a particularly difficult fight anyway. The "hard fights" are all in the 2nd wing of LFR.

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