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  1. #261
    Mechagnome Huntermyth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    just ...cant ..wait ... for ..thok ..lfr ...
    *crosses fingers*

  2. #262
    After running it many times.

    The LFR mechanics etc are a joke, the fights are easy but for the average LFR players, second wing is too much, every group is the same..Shamans need a miracle or 5 Determination, Nazgrim needs half the raid kicked for people that do more than 50K dps.

  3. #263
    Mechagnome Nazrark's Avatar
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    I had explained the fights in detail before each boss. We wiped maybe once or twice on each boss. The group of players I had were keen on listening. I understand this is probably a once in a lifetime event.

    I generally stay away from LFR. The second wing I ran, was the first time I've ran LFR in 2 months.

    I honestly think the level of difficulty should remain the same. It might even push some of the LFR people to learn proper rotation and mechanics of a raid.

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  4. #264
    High Overlord DaveL's Avatar
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    Well i was 2nd wing of SoO in LFR in thursday and i must say it was pain..
    Galakras: 2 wipes, people cant run to second tower or support themselves in there
    Jug: People needs to learn where to position him to not fly around. And step on mines.. 2 wipes
    Shamans: here the biggest pain begins. People needs to learn clear all trash before pulling them. then all other things... moving out of the shi- on the grounds etc. 6 wipes
    miniboss before nazgrim: lol´d about people zerging the boss but ignoring the demos.. 2 wipes
    Nazgrim: again people needs to learn to not hit him while in def stance, otherwise i´ve seen many focusing on adds, wich is good, but fun begins when instead destroying banner they attack Nazgrim (even better while def stance). 3 wpies, died on enrage with 2 ppl alive

    spent around 4 hours in there (40mins of it was waiting for new group on Jug when 22ppl left)

  5. #265
    So people have a hard time taking 1 second to look at a debuff to see if it's a stack or spread thing and it's blizz's fault....


    Here's how you beat this, next time you get to him in a raid warning say, "kill the healer (shaman? can't remember atm), run from GIANT spinning weapons" That is IT. That's all they need to do. That is all my groups avoided, or maybe I'm just the greatest healer alive.

    There is an idiots guide to raiding LFR one click away too. How can so many people be so lazy to read it, then so bad to not avoid the listed things? I'll admit I didn't read it at all, ran lfr on 2 healers, a tank and 3 dps. When you get a debuff, scroll over it, it tells you what it does.

    I'm a big believer in common sense though, and there is a short supply of it in wow.
    Apply blizzards model to any other subscription service,you'd be outraged:
    Netflix adds no new movies for a year, you click a new movie, there's a $5 fee.
    You're in an accident, click your onstar button, but there's an addition $20 fee for them to help.
    You turn on your tv only to find all you get are the infomercial channels. Every other show is pay per view.
    See how dumb that model is?

  6. #266
    Well wanted to check out the LFR 2 wing as heard so many nice things about it

    First i joined as my Main and specced BrM to get fast queue. Ended up in Nazgrim with no determination stacks yet. The other tank was good geared too and knew the fight so the tanking was easy and both knew when to swap and where to tank the warshamans. Went down first try and peeps just kept nuking the boss and we had those axes flying everywhere, but still only few died there and we one shot it. So after that i felt more brave and logged my alt.

    Thar run was not so nice at all ;(. Took over 3 hours the whole thing. Gala was 1 shot. Iron Juggernaut took 3 or 4 wipes. Shamans took 5 tries and on Nazgrim it took 5 tries until we had enough dps to kill him before enrage. On this group we did the no-one nuke him in defensive stance and quite surprisingly after few tries no one was nuking him that much in def stance and we only got 1 axe on the kill. But now that we didn't nuke him during def stance we had major problems with dps and he got to enrage 4 times before the kill, otherwise there was not much problem with deaths etc. But 3 hour for LFR is way too long for the intended crowd.
    Last edited by umppa; 2013-09-29 at 12:31 AM.

  7. #267
    I've yet to even kill Nazgrim this week on both my characters... had nothing but fail groups that fall apart after only a few whipes >.<

  8. #268
    Brewmaster Marxman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nazrark View Post
    I honestly think the level of difficulty should remain the same. It might even push some of the LFR people to learn proper rotation and mechanics of a raid.
    In the early years of WoW, this may have been true. People may have been willing to put forth effort, to learn, to get better... that is not the case for your average LFR player today. They'll ram their face into the wall a few times, then run to the forums and cry that it needs a nerf. God forbid something requires a few neurons to fire in your skull.

    This wing simply needs to be tuned down. There is zero chance of the LFR community getting better. They've had it too easy for too long. If it's not handed to them on a silver platter, then they will want... no, EXPECT for it to be nerfed to cater to the lowest common denominator. IE: being able to ignore mechanics, pull 30k DPS, stand in all of the fire, and still get their free loot.

  9. #269
    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    You and many other people don't seem to understand that one of the things that in general can't be changed is player ability in encounters (in both LFR and more difficult raiding environments). Encounters are designed to the known (or at least expected) abilities of players. Because encounters are complex and because people do funny things, the design isn't always correct for its audience.
    Actually i understand that quite well. My point, which YOU seem to not understand, is that if you continually cater to the lowest common denominator you eventually undermine your game. What makes games fun is a sense of adventure and accomplishment as well as a sense of progressing. Imagine if, when we dinged 90, we got a set of epic gear in the mail as a reward and there was no other way to get better gear. Yay, you have the best gear available... now what? You might raid once to see the encounter, but then you'd be done. Why do anything else in the game? THis is the absurd end of the argument that LFR and other things should be nerfed so that someone can win no matter how badly they play.

    The better approach would be to insist on a base level of competence if you want to win in a raid and then to couple that with two other things - first, MUCH better in-game guidance as to how to get that base level of competence (aside from the AFKers I think most of the LFR crowd simply doesnt know better) and second, alternative activities for group PVE at endgame so that if you werent good enough to LFR you still had things to do.

    LFR fails, though, at providing a mostly fun, enjoyable experience and it's because a few of us carry the entire group. When that stops (we can go do Flex instead), LFR gets stuck.

    Ultimately, despite the huge convenience of LFD/LFR, they've hurt the game since they mix people randomly, you'll never seem then again and have no reason to talk to them much less care about them.

  10. #270
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    just ...cant ..wait ... for ..thok ..lfr ...
    Why wait for just Thok? People are going to fuck up Malkorok (void zones not getting soaked + standing in wrong spot for Breath) and Spoils (open all the crates+too many on one side) enough as is. Just glad that I'll never have to go in there for gear and the next time I see someone in guild asking for help in SoO LFR I'm just going to tell them to do a normal 10 ToT run.

    As for Nazgrim the only way to make the fight easier is to hope a dps has a tank off spec to just play with adds the entire time. That way Rage gained from tanks is kept to a minimum. Still doesn't solve derpers during Defensive Stance.
    Last edited by Trubo; 2013-09-29 at 01:36 AM.

  11. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by Marxman View Post
    In the early years of WoW, this may have been true. People may have been willing to put forth effort, to learn, to get better... that is not the case for your average LFR player today. They'll ram their face into the wall a few times, then run to the forums and cry that it needs a nerf. God forbid something requires a few neurons to fire in your skull.

    This wing simply needs to be tuned down. There is zero chance of the LFR community getting better. They've had it too easy for too long. If it's not handed to them on a silver platter, then they will want... no, EXPECT for it to be nerfed to cater to the lowest common denominator. IE: being able to ignore mechanics, pull 30k DPS, stand in all of the fire, and still get their free loot.
    See, I think blizz will nerf it... but I think they should say "Look, raiding requires some attention and some basic skill, i.e. to do a reasonable fraction of your classes DPS, to be able to move out of bad things, to be able to switch targets. If you cannot or will not do some minimum amount of this, you won't be able to progress." Yes, the whing will be epic. Some will quit. But some will stay and the game will be better overall.

    Otherwise, why even have mechanics? Why have enrage timers? Just make all of the fights Patch fights with no timer. If people can't do more than 40k, oh well...

    Of course that would be fatal for the game unless they adjusted loot significantly.
    Last edited by clevin; 2013-09-29 at 01:41 AM.

  12. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrops View Post
    I really enjoyed the difficulty of 2nd wing LFR. My stats:
    1st boss one shot
    2nd boss one wipe
    3rd boss 3 wipes
    4th boss 4 wipes (we hit enrage one try lol)
    5 wipes on trash total
    Over all spent 2h in it.
    With my main we one shot the whole place. But, that's because there was a helpful person who clearly explained all the fights, made everyone type out in chat that they understood what he'd told them rather than just doing a ready check, and prompted us to kick anyone who refused to do so (which we only had to do with 2 people).
    I've also done it with 2 alts. With one, we one shot 1st boss, had one wipe on the scorpion, 5 wipes on shamen, and 8 on Naz. With my other alt I got dropped into a group on Naz with 4 stacks of determination and he didn't go down until we had 9 stacks. When I requeued, we one shot the first 2 bosses but then the group failed utterly on Shamen (terrible tanks) and being late on Thurs night, after we kicked the bad tanks we still didn't have replacements after waiting more than 20 minutes so I bailed to go to bed. I tried again the next day and it took 3 tried on first boss, one shot scorp, and took 5 attempts to down shamen.

    While the amount of rage quits is really high with every wipe, I've found it to be a blast. I don't know what's with all the problems with Naz but I suspect once people gear up a little more it'll get better even if Blizz doesn't do any nerfing. With the Shamen, a lot of the problem was just bad placement of the all the ground crap and/or bad luck with things like all the heals getting boxed in by elementals on one side, slimes on the other and being in a place where the landscape ate the ash fall circle so they didn't know they were standing right in it and other such chaos.

    In a couple months, when there's lots of flex and normal geared people running it for valor or enchanters farming Sha Crystals, it will be easy mode again. Hell, Elegon used to be fairly hard the first couple weeks but when I ran it yesterday we one shot it even though both tanks fell. A Frost DK just switched stances and was able to tank the rest of the fight.

  13. #273
    The nazrim fight is not too bad just needs some tuning on add spawns so they stay away during the berserker phase so dps know to dps boss instead of running around chasing adds (non shamans) that you can kill in the defence phase right after, wich causes the boss to enrage at the end due to lack of dps. Oh and perhaps the spinning axe of doom hits a bit too hard, since it managed to kill half of the raid during last 10% push.

    Shaman one is just wonky, ash fall of death getting clipped under the ground texture ain't helping, needs some over the ground effect.

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  14. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by Ecwfrk View Post
    I don't know what's with all the problems with Naz but I suspect once people gear up a little more it'll get better even if Blizz doesn't do any nerfing.
    Biggest issues are:

    1. Nazgrim getting healed by Warshaman's Earth Shield, Empowered Chain Heal and/or Healing Tide Totem.
    2. Anyone but tanks attacking Nazgrim during Defensive Stance, causing a ton of Ravagers which then proceed to kill raid and give Nazgrim enough Rage to generate more Ravagers.
    3. Tanks not swapping after 3-4 stacks
    4. Adds not dying/being tanked.
    5. DPS/Heals letting Assassins Backstab them.
    6. People just not realizing how crazy the last 10% is if no one is tanking adds.

    With the Shamen, a lot of the problem was just bad placement of the all the ground crap and/or bad luck with things like all the heals getting boxed in by elementals on one side, slimes on the other and being in a place where the landscape ate the ash fall circle so they didn't know they were standing right in it and other such chaos.
    Most of the problems with Dark Shamans can be boiled down to inattentive/uninformed tanks; yes you can't force people to avoid Ash Elemental Wall but if you're the tank that Earthbreaker is targeting you can place the wall in such a way to hit the fewest number of people as possible. Same deal with Oozes in melee due to Wavebinder tank not moving away during Foul Geyser.


    In a couple months, when there's lots of flex and normal geared people running it for valor or enchanters farming Sha Crystals, it will be easy mode again. Hell, Elegon used to be fairly hard the first couple weeks but when I ran it yesterday we one shot it even though both tanks fell. A Frost DK just switched stances and was able to tank the rest of the fight.
    Good luck fake-tanking Galakras adds (Galakras himself maybe), Juggernaut's Flame Vents + Melee, Earthbreaker's stacking debuff to 5 and Nazgrim's Sunder Armor past 1-2 stacks + no real tank on adds.

  15. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    And you are STILL missing the point. The point is that Blizzard has LFR to try and FORCE players who would not otherwise raid into raids, .
    yes, because they manipulate players into clicking the "dungeon finder" button, then the "raid finder" tab that the aforementioned button brings up, then finally, they put a gun to their head and threaten to pull the trigger unless they click on the "find group" button, right?
    because, you know, theyre FORCING them to do LFR, just like they FORCED them to pay 15 dollars a month to do all this

    right?
    or did the point go over my head too?

  16. #276
    Shaman can be one shotted. One of my alt one shot it.
    If it is a wipe, it is tank's fault

    The last boss needs a nerf.
    A few people randomly hit thing.

  17. #277
    The only thing that is a bit strangely tuned is the def stance of Nazgrim. They usually removed all mechanics where one person (except the tank) can screw the whole raid.

    Other than that, I think the problem is not the tuning of the bosses. It is for one the required item level (496 afaik), combined with the fact that you can get an almost full 496 gear on the island without even having played the char at max level once. Or, if it is the main char, without having stepped a foot in a raid. The other "problem" is the item level of the drops, which is far below the HC gear of the old content, and even a little below the upgraded nh gear of the old content. Thus, many raiders don't go into LFR with their well equipped main chars. I set problem in "", because I personally think that's a good thing. And compared to ToT LFR, not that many mains need to catch up on some bosses where they passed or were sat in the main raid to catch up on the legendary items.

    What should be changed? Increase the item level required, that people need to do at least two weeks of the older LFRs before jumping into SoO.

  18. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by xenogear3 View Post
    Shaman can be one shotted. One of my alt one shot it.
    If it is a wipe, it is tank's fault
    i thought that when people stood in stuff and died it was the healers fault!

  19. #279
    Good tanks can really make or break dark shamans as it stands. If they know to spawn ashen wall away in a corner and to do foul geyser without nuking the raid, you will probably kill it pretty easily.

    I one shot it with my alt warrior tanking, but I had a hell of a time with my spriest main.

  20. #280
    Quote Originally Posted by Forsta View Post
    It is for one the required item level (496 afaik), combined with the fact that you can get an almost full 496 gear on the island without even having played the char at max level once.
    And many of these people will have an ilvl 450 weapon or worse. So, their performance will be even worse than their average ilvl suggests.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

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