2nd Wing LFR tuning is interesting

[wow2011]

People "need" better gear whether or not they raid because gear is the only measure of power that exists in this game, so there has to be something to better yourself. It's not a matter of "Well if you don't raid you don't need the gear" because then all of those people would get all their Timeless gear and then unsubscribe. Instead of evolving the game to have various endgame paths (actual endgame paths that reward actual character progression, not points that are all but useless), they have chosen to stick with the idea that raiding is the only "true" endgame, and tried to shoehorn everyone into that by LFR offering higher rewards to "entice" players into trying raiding out, in the hopes that they say "Hey this raiding thing is pretty neat, I'd like to do this" and graduate to fulltime raiders.

Blizzard's intention is to provide a systematic grouped styled gameplay that is fun while allowing people to grow in character power. Blizzard's idea of that is through raiding/dungeon as they believe that is what players want. For players who enjoys raiding, content is there. For players that only want higher ilvl, the carrot is there. For both groups, content lasts long enough to entice ppl to stay subscribed until Blizzard is able to push out next batch of content. For people who don't enjoy that then they will unsub like they do with any other MMO.

So far, there are only a handful of successful MMO that doesn't use raiding as end game that I am aware of.

EVE online : crafting and pvp and making money through trading
Some chinese MMO: no level cap and unlimited power growth through level grind

Most of the other MMOs are play till cap and maybe play for a few more months then quit. Maybe come back and resub when new content comes out but they don't stay subscribed (sounds like WoW subscribers that don't enjoy raiding).

Anyways, Blizzard's hope is to get ppl to raid as that can get subscribers to stay subscribed. They have determined that it is not possible to create high quality content faster than players can consume without gating in some way. Only allowing players to kill a particular raid boss once a week hasn't caused QQ in the western world so that is staying. This is largely frowned upon in asia so raid lock out works differently over there as a result.

It all comes down to how to get people to shell out 15 a month on a regular basis. If you have some awesome idea on activities that are fun and will get players hooked for months (or years) while paying a reoccuring fee, definitely submit that suggestion on forum as I am sure Blizzard would love to hear that idea.

[pallyopness]

You're just spouting a bunch of unhelpful, unoriginal elitist memes, and you're dragging the thread off-topic. Sorry, I'm not interested in pursuing your rant with you.

No I am speaking the truth in which you do not want to hear, so instead you say it's useless elitist behavior yet in the end it's just trying to help the playerbase understand why they struggle. Just because you'd rather write it off as unhelpful elitist behavior doesn't mean any of it isn't true. Its not off topic either...LFR is not scaled wrong or too heavily, the playerbase that is using it now as a whole is just wanting shit handed to them on a silver platter with 24k gold etchings. The lack of normal mode raiders using it due to flex is showing the lfr playerbase what normal mode raiders have been saying all along...without normal raiders carrying the lfr crowd, lfr would be hell......proof is in the pudding now isnt it?

[Deleted]

- - - Updated - - -

One of my guildies was running the second wing of SoO LFR and over the course of the run gained 27 Determination stacks. I was roflcoptering all the way to the bank. The run took 5.5 hours total.

27 ?!
Is that really possible ?
I mean, after a few wipes there's high chance to be left alone in the raid because people hates to wipes.
When this happens, you aren't queued anymore in the LFR search, it's bugged on EU servers.
You need to leave the raid and the tag again if they aren't enough people in the raid.
Happened to me twice.
So I am surprised that his raid continued O_o

[Snorkles]

Having now done it on 2 characters (both wings) I think I must have been lucky - 2 shot Galakras (would have been 1 if someone didn't shoot him/her down while adds were still up), Juggernaut, Dark Shammies and Nazgrim last night. On my alt - 2 shot most except Nazgrim (3 wipes, got it on the 4th).

Worse thing to happen was on Galakras, some guy said to me 'Why are you DPS?' to which I responded 'Because I am?' (How do you respond to that?) then someone else at the end (after we wiped) moaned about me being DPS but queuing as healer (I hadn't). Turned out there were two Shammies in the group, one WAS a healer but because both our names began with 'Sha' therefore (obviously) both of us were apparently healers. Fortunately, after both me and the healer (after a heated exchange) had managed to explain that we were in fact different people queued in the correct roles he stopped talking and left. One guy did apologized though, which was cool.

[Yunru]

After 7 wipes yesterday in lfr on alt i started playing this song every time he went into defensive:



And of cose /dance

[kamuimac]

Blizzard's intention is to provide a systematic grouped styled gameplay that is fun while allowing people to grow in character power. Blizzard's idea of that is through raiding/dungeon as they believe that is what players want. For players who enjoys raiding, content is there. For players that only want higher ilvl, the carrot is there. For both groups, content lasts long enough to entice ppl to stay subscribed until Blizzard is able to push out next batch of content. For people who don't enjoy that then they will unsub like they do with any other MMO.

So far, there are only a handful of successful MMO that doesn't use raiding as end game that I am aware of.

EVE online : crafting and pvp and making money through trading
Some chinese MMO: no level cap and unlimited power growth through level grind

Most of the other MMOs are play till cap and maybe play for a few more months then quit. Maybe come back and resub when new content comes out but they don't stay subscribed (sounds like WoW subscribers that don't enjoy raiding).

Anyways, Blizzard's hope is to get ppl to raid as that can get subscribers to stay subscribed. They have determined that it is not possible to create high quality content faster than players can consume without gating in some way. Only allowing players to kill a particular raid boss once a week hasn't caused QQ in the western world so that is staying. This is largely frowned upon in asia so raid lock out works differently over there as a result.

It all comes down to how to get people to shell out 15 a month on a regular basis. If you have some awesome idea on activities that are fun and will get players hooked for months (or years) while paying a reoccuring fee, definitely submit that suggestion on forum as I am sure Blizzard would love to hear that idea.

part of lbizzards problem is that this game has been out for so long that for some people it got so repetative to some extent that no matter how much content they gonna release people will devour (and ye in case of wow its no longer consuyming its heavy devouring ) it so damn fast - lets take example of 5.4 and timless isle - many many people farmed it for 1-2 day untill they got stacked in 535 gear in slots they didnt have it and then what ... nothing - there are some events rares rep fun tspecial thing but from sense of char progress it doesnt offer anything -_- anyone who raids knows that fresh alts who dint 90 are so far away with legendary questthat there is no point to dust them off to catch up in resonable time - prior to mop there were new dungeons and stuff now there is nothing ye timless isle offers u 496/535 gear but with randomness of it people just cba - there are raids ofc - but exept for raids there is nothing nothing to do to progress ur char -_- people log in for raid nights maybe to run 1-2 alts through flex and then there is nothing and if u gonna be runing the same raid each week 3-4 times on separate difficulties but still its same content - people will eventually slowly start to unsub till 6.0 and it will be much more drastic drop then ever before - for exact reason - there is none, none pve content offered since 5.0 exapt for raids which would offer u real chalenging char progress gearwise (cause there is nothing chalenging in timless isle -_-) ><

[Odina]

there is none, none pve content offered since 5.0 exapt for raids which would offer u real chalenging char progress gearwise (cause there is nothing chalenging in timless isle -_-) ><

On this I will agree 100%! I find the lack of end tier 5 mans ...disturbing to say the least! Timelss isle was a nice change and for myself a step in the right direction but the whole "hour glass" questline would have been much better delivered through 5 mans like they did at the end of cata combined with timless isle!

I know it takes dev time etc etc but those 5 man dungeons are more than just pve gear options they also set up some story / lore for the raid. Comming from an RP server and a mentality wehre I believe the RPG part of the game is a good chunk of why I enjoy it so much years later I find it shitty that they built up the raid with outdoor aoe fests (I'm a tank all I have done on timelss and barrens content is round up a large pack of adds and AOE). Would have been nice to have something along the ICC/Cata etc end tier 5 mans to really ramp up the "O shit were breakign down the doors to orgrimar".

They made a couple steps back a couple steps forward in this expac... for myself the one thing missing to have it as a real "good step forward" is the 5 mans that IMO should follow the last tier raid to end the expac.

[Quilm]

On this I will agree 100%! I find the lack of end tier 5 mans ...disturbing to say the least! Timelss isle was a nice change and for myself a step in the right direction but the whole "hour glass" questline would have been much better delivered through 5 mans like they did at the end of cata combined with timless isle!

I know it takes dev time etc etc but those 5 man dungeons are more than just pve gear options they also set up some story / lore for the raid. Comming from an RP server and a mentality wehre I believe the RPG part of the game is a good chunk of why I enjoy it so much years later I find it shitty that they built up the raid with outdoor aoe fests (I'm a tank all I have done on timelss and barrens content is round up a large pack of adds and AOE). Would have been nice to have something along the ICC/Cata etc end tier 5 mans to really ramp up the "O shit were breakign down the doors to orgrimar".

They made a couple steps back a couple steps forward in this expac... for myself the one thing missing to have it as a real "good step forward" is the 5 mans that IMO should follow the last tier raid to end the expac.

Ye hard to argue at all with this, my guess is that the flex raids and connected realms might have taken up the dev time needed for new 5mans but both will make this game better in the long run, if you don't have those you might have some new 5mans. Ill take the former before the latter any day as the 5mans become pointless with the new xpac but the other features will be with us for the long haul.

In terms of LFR tuning, I said once most heroic and normal progression guilds have the legendary there is no need for LFR and the amount of runs that go smooth will dwindle. Less people to carry raid, not to say people will not get good runs and after time once they get used to the boss fights it should be easier but it will be a harder road and the afkers or people who simply don't give a fuck will be more noticeable.

[Normie]

(cause there is nothing chalenging in timless isle -_-) ><

There are plenty of mobs there that you will find it challenging to solo. You're just choosing to ignore them.

- - - Updated - - -

Ye hard to argue at all with this, my guess is that the flex raids and connected realms might have taken up the dev time needed for new 5mans.

There is some overlap, but I don't think the encounter team (which does raids and 5-mans) has much to do with the systems team (which does things like connected realms). What took up all the time that would have been allocated to 5-mans is all of the LARGE RAIDING TIERS this time around.

[Quilm]

There are plenty of mobs there that you will find it challenging to solo. You're just choosing to ignore them.

- - - Updated - - -


There is some overlap, but I don't think the encounter team (which does raids and 5-mans) has much to do with the systems team (which does things like connected realms). What took up all the time that would have been allocated to 5-mans is all of the LARGE RAIDING TIERS this time around.

Ye very true, but considering that, how much of the encounter teams time was spent making sure flex raids worked properly? I have no idea perhaps that time could have been used to make a 5man or 2. Or maybe the implementation of flex was stupid fucking easy and as you said everything just went into the mega raid that is SoO. I would want nothing more then good 5-mans to take LFR out of the gearing process.

I had suggested before that heroic dungeons should maybe bring back epic drops off the last boss with itlvl on par with LFR, and with each subsequent raid tier that drop would be scaled accordingly to allow a player progression outside of LFR and valor vendors, I could just be talking out of my ass here but whatever.

[Normie]

Ye very true, but considering that, how much of the encounter teams time was spent making sure flex raids worked properly? I have no idea perhaps that time could have been used to make a 5man or 2. Or maybe the implementation of flex was stupid fucking easy and as you said everything just went into the mega raid that is SoO. I would want nothing more then good 5-mans to take LFR out of the gearing process.

I had suggested before that heroic dungeons should maybe bring back epic drops off the last boss with itlvl on par with LFR, and with each subsequent raid tier that drop would be scaled accordingly to allow a player progression outside of LFR and valor vendors, I could just be talking out of my ass here but whatever.

The idea that 5-mans should be less rewarding than LFR doesn't make sense to me.

Anyway, we are digressing ....

[Quilm]

The idea that 5-mans should be less rewarding than LFR doesn't make sense to me.

Anyway, we are digressing ....

Yes my apologies, first week of 5.4 my guild went 11/14, and the general consensus for all of us was its going to be interesting how some of these bosses are going to be tuned for LFR. I personally cant wait for blackfuse and see what happens on these forms, or thok for that matter.

I would like to think blizz does try to tune them correctly for LFR but simply overestimate the player base that enters and Nazgrim is a perfect example, I guessing you might see it where he generates little to no rage during his Def stance and possible reduced stacking for the mage add and his arcane blast

[Normie]

Yes my apologies, first week of 5.4 my guild went 11/14, and the general consensus for all of us was its going to be interesting how some of these bosses are going to be tuned for LFR. I personally cant wait for blackfuse and see what happens on these forms, or thok for that matter.

I would like to think blizz does try to tune them correctly for LFR but simply overestimate the player base that enters and Nazgrim is a perfect example, I guessing you might see it where he generates little to no rage during his Def stance and possible reduced stacking for the mage add and his arcane blast

People come into LFR with very fixed ideas about how their organized strategies might apply in LFR, but often those strategies are overly complex or make no sense or are just plain wrong.

In my opinion anyway the right thing to do is tunnel Nazgrim whenever there are no adds up, regardless of his stance.

[Jimson]

No I am speaking the truth in which you do not want to hear, so instead you say it's useless elitist behavior yet in the end it's just trying to help the playerbase understand why they struggle. Just because you'd rather write it off as unhelpful elitist behavior doesn't mean any of it isn't true. Its not off topic either...LFR is not scaled wrong or too heavily, the playerbase that is using it now as a whole is just wanting shit handed to them on a silver platter with 24k gold etchings. The lack of normal mode raiders using it due to flex is showing the lfr playerbase what normal mode raiders have been saying all along...without normal raiders carrying the lfr crowd, lfr would be hell......proof is in the pudding now isnt it?

"Speaking the truth," in most cases, is just a fancy way of justifying being an ass.

You won't see me in lfr

Why are you so involved in this discussion if you don't bother with the content?

[Spacepunch]

The million threads like this is why I don't pve anymore.

INFRACTED: Please post constructively and stay relevant to the topic. -Nobleshield


piss off cunt

[Normie]

The million threads like this is why I don't pve anymore.

What is the point of this comment? Are you trying to say something meaningful?

[clevin]

People come into LFR with very fixed ideas about how their organized strategies might apply in LFR, but often those strategies are overly complex or make no sense or are just plain wrong.

In my opinion anyway the right thing to do is tunnel Nazgrim whenever there are no adds up, regardless of his stance.

Oh please. The Nazgrim strat is dead simple....

1) Don't hit him in Def Stance.
2) Kill adds, Shamans first, then Arcweavers.
3) Stay away from the axes.

That means people need to do *3 things* and they are fine. Are you really arguing that s too complex?? Oh and it's ridiculous to argue that asking people to do three simple things is somehow elitist, so don't even bother with that line of argument. Look, people need to be able to do more than simply tunnel the boss and if they can't they shouldn't get rewards. If all someone wants from game is "monkey push button, get food" dynamics and you cater to that you end up with a crap game where each encounter is effectively the same and there's nothing involving.

- - - Updated - - -

"Speaking the truth," in most cases, is just a fancy way of justifying being an ass.

IN this case he's right. Games need to have some level of challenge and can't simply reward people just for showing up. Ideally the game has several things to do of varying difficulty, but there's always SOME difficulty.

Take a well designed single player game... there are usually several difficulty settings: easy, normal, hard, insane or something like that. It's perfectly fine to choose Easy because you just want to play through the story. But even the Easy level on a good game will present some challenge - it's possible to die, you can't just press the most basic ability over and over and win, etc.

LFR needs to be like that and can't (or rather shouldn't) eliminate all mechanics. See my previous reply... Nazgrim is a tactically easy fight, people just need to pay a small bit of attention (what stance is he in), move out of hard ("hey, there's an axe near me...") and attack the adds. Ideally they attack adds in a priority order, but even if they just attack the first one they see it will work better than not. Or you can reward them for pressing Basic Ability 1 all the time and tunneling the boss with their auto attack. Guess which choice makes a better game?

[Normie]

Oh please. The Nazgrim strat is dead simple....

1) Don't hit him in Def Stance.
2) Kill adds, Shamans first, then Arcweavers.
3) Stay away from the axes.

That isn't asking much and frankly it's ridiculous to argue that doing those simple things is somehow elitist, so don't even bother with that line of argument. People need to be able to do more than simply tunnel the boss. If they can't they shouldn't get rewards. If all someone wants from game is "monkey push button, get food" dynamics and you cater to that you end up with a crap game.

Except that if you don't DPS him in Defensive Stance, the group won't have enough DPS to kill him before the enrage.

I don't know what you're ranting about otherwise. Until Blizzard nerfs Nazgrim's health or adds 3-5 minutes to the enrage timer (PLEASE GOD NO), the strategy is just wrong. It's not elitist to say it's just wrong.

[Osmeric]

Oh please. The Nazgrim strat is dead simple....

1) Don't hit him in Def Stance.
2) Kill adds, Shamans first, then Arcweavers.
3) Stay away from the axes.

That means people need to do *3 things* and they are fine. Are you really arguing that s too complex??

The problem is not that any one individual has to do the three things. The problem is that EVERYONE has to do (1), since even one person hitting the boss during defensive stance will cause most of the possible rage generation (3 rage, cooldown 1 sec).

LFR works very poorly with mechanics where one or two people failing will screw over the raid.

[clevin]

Except that if you don't DPS him in Defensive Stance, the group won't have enough DPS to kill him before the enrage.

I don't know what you're ranting about otherwise. Until Blizzard nerfs Nazgrim's health or adds 3-5 minutes to the enrage timer (PLEASE GOD NO), the strategy is just wrong. It's not elitist to say it's just wrong.

The reason he lasts so long when you don't do things right is that *he gets healed by the adds*. If only someone would kill them....

In the case you outline the group has people who are terrible players. People who are auto attacking only or otherwise playing far below what they can do. And guess what? If your group has a lot of people who, with a 496 ilevel, can't do more than 50K DPS those people shouldn't proceed.

A large part of the problem with LFR is that Blizzard does precisely what you want. Instead of tuning it so that people have to play basically right they tune it so that half the raid can play poorly, do minimal DPS and still win. See again my example of single person game - you don't have the play perfectly on an Easy setting but you can't just hit your basic attack over and over, stand in fire and win. That seems to be what you want... that people can just tunnel the boss, not worry about axes and win. That's poor game design.