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  1. #21
    Stood in the Fire Conjor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puerto View Post
    BM will still reign supreme this tier. BM scales better with gear than SV or MM.
    Blanket statements like this stop people from exploring new options. For me MM currently sims the highest, followed by SV, followed by another MM spec, THEN a BM spec.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Conjor View Post
    Blanket statements like this stop people from exploring new options. For me MM currently sims the highest, followed by SV, followed by another MM spec, THEN a BM spec.
    Fixed for ya

    Quote Originally Posted by Puerto View Post
    BM will still probably reign supreme this tier. BM scales better with gear than SV or MM.
    I still believe BM will be better overall though. I've started to lean away from Sims and base my theories off real world testing. I dunno, it just seems like all sims these past two tiers have been a little off.

  3. #23
    BM Scales better in the long run, but SV has received so many bandaid fixes that even with the scaling of BM, SV will be better.

  4. #24
    Just a little additional info about uptimes. Blackfuse fight with quite some record:

    Thrill of the Hunt 19 217.9 81.9 %
    Lock and Load 13 98.6 37.1 %
    Rapid Fire 6 89.9 33.8 %

    All i can say is: more procs please!!
    Source:
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-tc...?s=1250&e=1515
    Every time you say "I don't believe in fearies" one of them dies...

  5. #25
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    Unless they changed from Thursday night, why are people saying they are getting over 20 in a row? Does the LnL buff only last for 12 seconds, yes, does the 4p not consuming a charge refresh the timer, no, does ExP shot still use the GCD, yes. There is no way anyone has gotten 23, I'm happy with 8-10.

  6. #26
    Deleted
    Sims are showing thrill of the hunt to be the best but I'm finding dire beast to give better results in game for pure single target. It was the same with the 2 set aswell. I have rapid fire macrod to all my shots and I'm not focus capping so it can't be because I don't use enough arcane shots.

    I think the sims are wrong and overvaluing ToTH somehow.
    Last edited by mmoca914917702; 2013-10-01 at 05:11 AM.

  7. #27
    Deleted
    The reason people are getting over 20 is that while its true that LnL duration is 12 seconds , the cooldown on LnL is 10. So its possible to have a blackarrow proc refreshing your 12 seconds uptime thus letting you fire away nonstop. (assuming it refreshes. If it doesnt , then a re-proc the moment it falls off lets you apply a followup Expl. shot that will just rollover the ticks into a new LnL)

  8. #28
    Deleted
    Regarding the 4p and insane amounts of procs, should you just keep spamming ES till it goes on CD? Reapply serpent sting after this spam fest ends or should reapply ss as it falls off. Same with BA, if 4p carries on giving free ES it's not worth BAing for the damage right?

  9. #29
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    So are we meant to worry about trinkter proc's during LnL?

    Is the roll over damage from ES during LnL effected by AP changes?

    For example, LnL procs, you are spamming ES, trinket proc expires, do you:
    1) Keep spamming ES
    2) Let the buffed ES drop off before hitting ES again?

    I can't find a confirmation either way (actually I can find people saying both options).

    If we don't know, would this be the way to test it:
    1) Un equip anything that creates AP changes such as trinkets, tinkers, cloak chant (Tailor), scope etc. So you just have one ability that increases AP (I am thinking Eng gloves for ease of use
    2) Put black arrow up and wait for LnL to proc
    3) Hit glove tinker
    4) just before tinker expires cast first ES
    5) fire final 2 ES's after glove tinker fades
    6) put the combat log here so people can work out if it is effected or not (because disecting the combat log I think is where I would fail lol)

    I ask because if you have 4 piece, double trinket proc, then 4 piece procs, the ES ticks towards the end are doing alot of damage, you might be losing a lot of damage if you are refreshing ES after the trinkets proc's have expired.

    Or does ES not work like a Lock dot and doesn't snap shot when being 'refreshed' by a new ES but instead snapshots the 'damage' of the ES and rolls it into the new ES?

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Osinin View Post
    snip
    It is affected by AP changes, because it takes the old dot and adds it to the new dot.

  11. #31

    ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Huntadin View Post
    Regarding the 4p and insane amounts of procs, should you just keep spamming ES till it goes on CD? Reapply serpent sting after this spam fest ends or should reapply ss as it falls off. Same with BA, if 4p carries on giving free ES it's not worth BAing for the damage right?
    I am not quite sure, if there is any priority shot change during LNL proc chain, especially with ToTH proc being active all the time.
    But if you ask me about BA, i tell you should refresh it when it is about do drop (with Assurance of Consequence) or use on CD.
    After Explosive Shot chain i refresh serpent with Multishot on ToTH proc. Real challange starts at 20-0% on boss, since you have many procs and additionally you have to make room for 2x Kill Shots. That forces serpent sting to drop quite often, and quess what if kill is close no point to reapply it again. About 23 procs in a row, dont believe it blindly. So far my biggest streak was 12, but 6-8 are quite often.
    Every time you say "I don't believe in fearies" one of them dies...

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntadin View Post
    Regarding the 4p and insane amounts of procs, should you just keep spamming ES till it goes on CD? Reapply serpent sting after this spam fest ends or should reapply ss as it falls off. Same with BA, if 4p carries on giving free ES it's not worth BAing for the damage right?
    I think reapplying SrS when finished is best, I'm not sure about BA though. I'd like to hear other opinions.
    My guess is let BA fade and keep spamming Expl shots but if the LnL internal CD is coming up, reapply BA for a potential 2nd LnL to keep the chain going.

    I just got my 4pc last raid, disappointed with how useless it feels for MM.
    SV is proc city. Kinda fun.

  13. #33
    4pc rocks for BM and SV.

    BM because you will be using more Arcane Shots (with Focus Fire + no Black Arrow + no AMoC to handle, you'll just have more focus to reduce that Rapid Fire cooldown. If you're good at it, you can /almost/ have Rapid Fire up for every single Bestial Wrath.

    SV because proc war, as has been determined, pretty much.

    What I'd do in a proc-city-round is let Serpent Sting drop (simply because it doesn't do enough damage to warrant refreshing during such a high-damage streak..), and bring it up with Multi-Shot (if ToTH is procced) or just manually apply it.

    Same for BM if trinks are up, just do Arcanes/KC's instead, because Serpent Sting is less essential than you might think (not to say you shouldn't actively keep it up ofc).

    As for Black Arrow, I noticed that when you use it on cooldown, the new DoT is still only 21 seconds long (when it should be 25 seconds or so), so I wait till bout 2 seconds left with refreshing. Gives me a Cobra Shot to use when it's off cooldown to have enough focus.

  14. #34
    As for Black Arrow, I noticed that when you use it on cooldown, the new DoT is still only 21 seconds long (when it should be 25 seconds or so), so I wait till bout 2 seconds left with refreshing. Gives me a Cobra Shot to use when it's off cooldown to have enough focus.
    I've been wondering something about this. With AoC we have the possibility of 100% uptime on BA. That being said... Does it really matter when you hit it? I'd assume that just as long as you don't let it fall off, it's mostly irrelevant when you shoot it. Or am I wrong?

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Finick View Post
    I've been wondering something about this. With AoC we have the possibility of 100% uptime on BA. That being said... Does it really matter when you hit it? I'd assume that just as long as you don't let it fall off, it's mostly irrelevant when you shoot it. Or am I wrong?
    That's -pretty- much right, but I find waiting till the last 1-2 seconds lets me get some more important abilities in first (not a big deal mid-fight usually, but in the start of the fight you want to get as many Arcanes out of your pot/trink/everything as possible), or it will, as I mentioned, give you more time to get focus to use it without delaying anything.

  16. #36
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by sultangurde View Post
    After Explosive Shot chain i refresh serpent with Multishot on ToTH proc.
    Does this mean you let serpent sting stay off the target for X amount of time (even if that's an entire LnL duration) to not lose 1 explosive shot? I'm not sure if 1 ES > 15 seconds of serpent sting? Currently I've been prioritising globals on ES procs over SS and BA, having roughly 90-95% uptime on SS and 89-92% on BA. Feels kinda hard to sim this kinda rng of 10-15 procs in a row.

  17. #37
    That's -pretty- much right, but I find waiting till the last 1-2 seconds lets me get some more important abilities in first (not a big deal mid-fight usually, but in the start of the fight you want to get as many Arcanes out of your pot/trink/everything as possible), or it will, as I mentioned, give you more time to get focus to use it without delaying anything.
    That's more or less what I meant, I guess. I don't always hit it on CD. I probably enjoy AoC with Survival more than I do with BM, because it's always bothered that the duration on BA is shorter than it's CD. It's nice to have wiggle room with it, just in case LnL procs, or GT comes off CD at the same time, or stuff like that.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Azortharion View Post
    As for Black Arrow, I noticed that when you use it on cooldown, the new DoT is still only 21 seconds long (when it should be 25 seconds or so), so I wait till bout 2 seconds left with refreshing. Gives me a Cobra Shot to use when it's off cooldown to have enough focus.
    With most dots (Ignite and Explosive shot are exceptions, afaik) you can only overwrite the last tick without clipping. Black Arrow ticks ever 2 seconds, so if you overwrite the previous one with <2 seconds remaining, you will keep 100% uptime without losing any ticks, with the fresh BA lasting 20sec+whatever duration was left when you overwrote it.


    Thought more about the DoT reapplication question, and this sounds more accurate.
    Whether you refresh SrS/BA mid-LnL chain depends on how many procs you end up getting and how long you let your dots fade. You can't know ahead of time since it's determined by RNG, but at some point you lose so much dot uptime that it would've been a DPS increase to just immediately reapply your DoT and delay expl by 1 second.
    Extreme examples:
    LnL procs, SrS will fade in 1 second, your RNG is weak and you get no free LnL procs. You miss 2 seconds of SrS uptime.
    LnL procs, SrS will fade in 1 second, the RNG gods shine upon you and you chain Expl for the next 20 seconds.

    In the second example surely it would of been a DPS increase to delay Expl by 1 sec to refresh SrS and get those extra 19 seconds of dot ticks.

    I think the question of whether to refresh dots during LnL chain is too RNG to have a definite answer, but most of the time it's probably a DPS increase to let them fade.

  19. #39
    Deleted
    Due to the RNG nature of this problem and the fact that you cannot predict how long your ExS chain might go on for, you need to base your calculations around the most likely scenario.

    There is a 40% chance that casting an explosive shot while under LnL will not consume the LnL charge. There are 2 free LnLs, probability dictates that the most likely outcome is for 1 additional LnL. That makes for 4 (including the final one outside LnL) ExS back-to-back taking 4s to cast.

    SrS ticks every 3s
    BA ticks every 2s

    In this most likely scenario, you'll miss, at most 2 SrS and 3 BA ticks though, more likely 1 and 2.

    Using a recent example of one of my fellow guildie's (ilvl ~525, kinda low for this but it should probably still be useful data despite not currently having the 4pc set)
    SrS averaged 41k per tick
    BA averaged 23.6k per tick

    So, in our most likely scenario of 4 ExS, our intrepid hunter could lose approximately 86k damage.

    However we know that this also is not the most likely scenario though. In fact it is highly improbable that both SrS AND BA would fall off at the same time as well as this event coinciding with the start of our LnL proc.

    What is more likely is that only one of the DoTs would fall off during the LnL period which puts the likely damage lost at around 55k (the average between 2 BA ticks and 1 SrS tick).

    Theoretically ExS delayed is only a damage loss if you don't get to fire it before the boss dies (and both it's ticks get to expire).
    e.g. 1 minute in to a 5 minute fight you delay an ExS to refresh SrS. You finish the fight having fired 199 ExS.
    My guildie's ExS averaged about 65k per tick (thus about 195k for the GCD). If not refreshing that SrS would result in fitting in 1 more ExS into the fight then he has lost about 140k damage (about 0.5k dps over 5 minutes).

    In fact, perhaps it is better to look at this the other way around; How long a downtime of SrS would you need to have made refreshing it worthwhile? The above example suggests that 4 ticks would be the breakpoint or 12s. That means you would require a highly unlikely lucky streak to make refreshing SrS worthwhile during LnL.

    BA of course seems harder to measure as it is the source of our LnL procs but consider the icd of LnL (10s). Our most-likely scenario means we'll be out of LnL long before the icd has expired and thus, due to the low damage of BA, can also ignore refreshing BA while under LnL.

    I'd suggest that it is probably best to refresh BA under LnL if you have cast 8+ consecutive ExS but not less.

    tldr; Don't refresh SrS under LnL, don't refresh BA under LnL unless you've had a long (8+ casts) run of luck!
    Last edited by mmoc8d0803caf5; 2013-10-02 at 12:47 PM.

  20. #40
    Excellent napkin math! That makes it much clearer, thankyou

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