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  1. #1

    Explaining the item squish

    I see a lot of posts here that really do not understand how the item squish will work in relation to old content. If we want to overpower content the same way we do now something has to be changed, and people have tried to explain it but so many don't get it, so I will try to do it easily instead of using math or big words.

    The way the item level grows now, is linear through leveling, and at each expansion level cap they grow massively. When they item squish they do NOT lower everything by a percentage (because that would mean that an item with 1 stamina after percentage squish has for example 0.4 stamina, and that is stupid and not what they are doing), they will make all ilvl growths linear so that it grows like it does when you are leveling, therefore it will be a small growth through all expansions. Do you know what that means? That vanilla will barely be touched at all, only squished between the raid tiers, and then keep growing a small amount through everything. Since no massive growths exist, it will keep growing little by little until MoP levels, and it stops at about 200 or something. Since vanilla will be almost untouched, and nerfed by only a measly few itemlevels, while MoP gear will be nerfed by more than 50%, this means that we will be 50% less effective vs low level raids.

    And now, the counter argument to this goes along the lines off "But we will lower the % on old raid bosses by 50% also and everything will be dandy". Not really, because you see, level 60 players has barely been nerfed at all, they got nerfed by max 5-10%. So if old raids are nerfed by 50%, and level 60s only by a few %, those level 60s will massively overpower the raids that are for their level, and could maybe 10 or even 5 man them, who knows. Therein lies the problem, and another problem is that if a MoP enemy gets scaled down to be 50% weaker with the rest of the Panda ilvls, whos to say level 80 groups can't go around 5manning level 90 mobs when those mobs have been nerfed so much more than the 80 players have.

    One solution was that higher levels get extra damage towards lower levels and vice versa to make up for the much much smaller difference in itemlevels.

    Now, if someone still doesn't understand, please quote that part and I will try to explain better.

    Tl;dr: Not everything will be nerfed by the same percentage, the higher your ilvl, the bigger nerf you take. Thus a level 85 with high end raiding cata gear should have a good shot against a 90 in greens because the ilvls are so close to eachother, imagine 476 geared vs a 522 geared for example.
    Last edited by nymz; 2013-09-25 at 09:44 AM.

  2. #2
    Herald of the Titans Duridi's Avatar
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    Please do not try to explain something you know nothing about.

    Last comment I read from GC is this one; https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...13082154553344

    "@__Isolated Yes. It is a requirement of squishing that it does not interfere with overpowering old dungeons or raids."

    Sure, it doesn't say there won't be any change at all, but it should be possible to scale thing relative to eachother at a grade that you won't notice it. I really don't understand why some of you think it is going to be so terrible. They listen to you, but please stop coming with claims.

  3. #3
    Yes of course it is a requirement that it does not interfere with the overpowering, but only squishing will not work. Read my post again and really think about it. Level 90 players will be much more nerfed than 60s, as in level 90 will have the strength that an 80 has now, after squish, while 60 almost doesn't change. So our strength vs MC will be much smaller, while 60 will be the same. If you fix it by scaling MC down, level 90 will be fine again, but level 60s will be too strong for MC. How can this be hard to understand. Must someone write out every item level before and after squish until someone gets it?

    I will stress that I want them to squish, and there are many clever solutions, but ONLY squishing will not work. I am only explaining to those who don't seem to understand what it means. It has NOTHING to do with % scaling.
    Last edited by nymz; 2013-09-25 at 10:17 AM.

  4. #4
    I am Murloc! Airwaves's Avatar
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    Sorry didn't know you were on the dev team for blizzard. You must be to know how they plan on doing it.
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Airwaves View Post
    Sorry didn't know you were on the dev team for blizzard. You must be to know how they plan on doing it.
    No, and no. But it's a discussion forum, and discussing about how they will do it is what it's for, right? What is your point?

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by nymz View Post
    No, and no. But it's a discussion forum, and discussing about how they will do it is what it's for, right? What is your point?
    Why did it need another thread? There's a huge and lively thread debating the pros and cons of the squish, you could have easily posted there. What is your point?
    "When you understand why you dismiss all the other gods people believe in, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Amerissis View Post
    Why did it need another thread? There's a huge and lively thread debating the pros and cons of the squish, you could have easily posted there. What is your point?
    To explain it in what I felt was a more understandable way, since many did not understand it. The other one was about discussing solutions, mine was about trying to explain that a squish is not a % scaling. If mods feel that my thread shouldn't exist, then they will lock it, and I'll accept that.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by nymz View Post
    To explain it in what I felt was a more understandable way, since many did not understand it. The other one was about discussing solutions, mine was about trying to explain that a squish is not a % scaling. If mods feel that my thread shouldn't exist, then they will lock it, and I'll accept that.
    The problem with your thread is you're presenting your interpretation as fact, when we know next to nothing about how the squish will actually work. Feel free to source your assumptions.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Duridi View Post
    Please do not try to explain something you know nothing about.

    Last comment I read from GC is this one; https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...13082154553344

    "@__Isolated Yes. It is a requirement of squishing that it does not interfere with overpowering old dungeons or raids."

    Sure, it doesn't say there won't be any change at all, but it should be possible to scale thing relative to eachother at a grade that you won't notice it. I really don't understand why some of you think it is going to be so terrible. They listen to you, but please stop coming with claims.
    Take your own advice. GC was saying that they have to find a way to keep that overpowering in, not that the squish was happening any differently. There's no doubt the squish will happen as explained here, simply because there's no other sensible way of doing it.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by OriginalVocalMix View Post
    The problem with your thread is you're presenting your interpretation as fact, when we know next to nothing about how the squish will actually work. Feel free to source your assumptions.
    I am not assuming, they will change itemlevels from exponential growths at endgame, to linear growths through everything, as they have explained in their own articles.

    <I can't put sources or links in because my post count is too low>

    Through their article, I have understood and presented my explanation as to why item squishing alone is not enough. Because the result of that would be that we can't do current content anymore, so obviously they will scale that down. But we will not overpower MC as easily. So they can scale that down too, but wait, then that means that 60 players will be much more powerful against MC because their ilvl power barely changed at all.

  11. #11
    Legendary! Thelxi's Avatar
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    They said something about buffing max level people in old instances to replicate the power we have now over that old content. I will believe it when I see it, and it is probably safe to assume that LK 25hc and up will be fucked over by the squish. Blizzard won't care because most people will be happy with MC still being more or less soloable.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Thelxi View Post
    They said something about buffing max level people in old instances to replicate the power we have now over that old content. I will believe it when I see it, and it is probably safe to assume that LK 25hc and up will be fucked over by the squish. Blizzard won't care because most people will be happy with MC still being more or less soloable.
    And then they introduce old raid heroic scaling, and then all the levelbuffing and powerscaling will be out of control.

  13. #13
    I am Murloc! Airwaves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nymz View Post
    To explain it in what I felt was a more understandable way, since many did not understand it. The other one was about discussing solutions, mine was about trying to explain that a squish is not a % scaling. If mods feel that my thread shouldn't exist, then they will lock it, and I'll accept that.
    Ok. Give me PROOF that it is or isn't just going to all be a % scaling? You can't. So this thread is pointless. It would only serve its purpose if you were 100% sure.
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Airwaves View Post
    Ok. Give me PROOF that it is or isn't just going to all be a % scaling? You can't. So this thread is pointless. It would only serve its purpose if you were 100% sure.
    Try common sense. Any scaling factor that would actually produce useful results at max level would drop level 1 health pools below 1, and prevent gear with stats from occuring before BC at least.
    A linear squish cannot work.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Duridi View Post
    Please do not try to explain something you know nothing about.

    Last comment I read from GC is this one; https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...13082154553344

    "@__Isolated Yes. It is a requirement of squishing that it does not interfere with overpowering old dungeons or raids."

    Sure, it doesn't say there won't be any change at all, but it should be possible to scale thing relative to eachother at a grade that you won't notice it. I really don't understand why some of you think it is going to be so terrible. They listen to you, but please stop coming with claims.
    He's just saying that to stop people from freaking out, but there is no chance in hell they are testing the old raids. It's going to land where it lands and if old raids become impossible Blizzard will just say "go play LFR instead".

  16. #16
    sure it could.

    If you are a level 1 at 55 hp, and everything is dropped by 1 decimal place (reduced by 10%) then a level 1 would be 5.5 hp. Drop it by 50%, a level 1 would be 22.5 hp. Drop it by 2 decimal places and a level 1 would be .55hp. it would all be relative.

  17. #17
    Hey look, yet another useless thread on a topic that has been beaten to death.

    Item squish will happen. Nobody knows for certian how it will happen. People will still be able to solo content.

    End of story. Now lets get this thread locked please.

  18. #18
    Translation of the OP in English: "Hi, my name is Dr. Dick and I'm fucking clueless. Just made this thread to explain to you, idiots and cretins, how the old content will not be soloable like it is now, based on what I've dreamed last night, even though GC, lead system designer at Blizzard Entertainment, said the contrary. He is retarded, I am awesome. Bye"

    Infracted
    Last edited by Darsithis; 2013-09-25 at 01:08 PM.

  19. #19
    just wanted to chip in that the growth in power cannot be linear today. If it had been we would have seen something like f(x)=1X, which would have made this a non issue. If 5000 was your dps at level 70 all you needed to do was 5000/70 to find DPS for level 1-90. Lets gief example: 5000/70=71.42 71.42*90=6428
    ergo, 6428 should have been your DPS at level 90. It is clear to me we are looking at exponential rates here, and as everyone and their mothers know: exponential growth is not sustainable.

    I think you need to look at your formula again tbh. I could do it, as I am a heavy theorycrafter, but I'll wait until I see the actual squish before I make a mathematical model on how power scales exactly in WoW. The item squish is however, necessary.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Lbgr View Post
    sure it could.

    If you are a level 1 at 55 hp, and everything is dropped by 1 decimal place (reduced by 10%) then a level 1 would be 5.5 hp. Drop it by 50%, a level 1 would be 22.5 hp. Drop it by 2 decimal places and a level 1 would be .55hp. it would all be relative.
    Except doing it like that would make the squish pointless. It's to reduce the numbers, not to shift decimal places, which wouldn't affect them at all.

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