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  1. #1

    AskMrRobot and Destro

    Anyone know why even when I pick pve multi target, it's still telling me to reforge to haste?

    http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/u...er/soulsharted
    Last edited by Popesickle; 2013-09-25 at 03:25 PM.

  2. #2
    Looks like a possibly buggy interaction with your Purified Bindings. I don't have time to do the math but if you swap out Bindings for UVLS it will reforge out of Haste. I assume that since Bindings changes your Crit damage and not your Crit chance, the value of that Crit damage doesn't scale linearly and at low levels it's worthless.
    http://darkcontent.wordpress.com/ - blog (updated Oct. 8, 2013). Latest post: T16H Affliction Trinket Rankings in Combination, done in SimC 540-4.

  3. #3
    It's obviously a bug. Post it in their Tech support forum. They usually answer within a couple of hours during US daytime.

  4. #4
    Hey, I'm from Ask Mr. Robot. Rustjive is right that it's due to the interaction with your amplification trinket, however it isn't a bug. Haste is weighted at 2.85 and Crit is at 3. So if you look at your main hand, 142 crit is reforged into 150 haste (when you factor in the 5.5% bonus from the amp trinket). So that score looks like this:
    142 crit * 3 = 426
    150 haste * 2.85 = 427.5

    So haste wins (JUST BARELY) in this case. Mr. Robot was being smart and factoring it in.

    We're actually going to use your profile to run a few tests to make sure those default weights turn out to be best with an amplification trinket. It's possible we adjust the value of Haste down, we'll know more after we run our tests.

    In the meantime, if you still want to favor crit, use this profile. I dropped the value of haste down to 2.6: http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/b...d-85357db80e88

    - - - Updated - - -

    A quick update, we did some tests with that trinket and it turns out our current weights are spot on. It's better to get more crit when you don't have the trinket, and haste when you do!
    Ask Mr. Robot Human Minion

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoopercat View Post
    Hey, I'm from Ask Mr. Robot. Rustjive is right that it's due to the interaction with your amplification trinket, however it isn't a bug. Haste is weighted at 2.85 and Crit is at 3. So if you look at your main hand, 142 crit is reforged into 150 haste (when you factor in the 5.5% bonus from the amp trinket). So that score looks like this:
    142 crit * 3 = 426
    150 haste * 2.85 = 427.5

    So haste wins (JUST BARELY) in this case. Mr. Robot was being smart and factoring it in.

    We're actually going to use your profile to run a few tests to make sure those default weights turn out to be best with an amplification trinket. It's possible we adjust the value of Haste down, we'll know more after we run our tests.

    In the meantime, if you still want to favor crit, use this profile. I dropped the value of haste down to 2.6: http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/b...d-85357db80e88

    - - - Updated - - -

    A quick update, we did some tests with that trinket and it turns out our current weights are spot on. It's better to get more crit when you don't have the trinket, and haste when you do!
    You and the AMR are pretty awesome, IMO. Thanks for the quick reply.

    Looks like a new Sim-c build came out this morning . . . in the meantime, what APL are you using to get those stat weights? I haven't checked the latest Sim-c profile for Destro (this morning's one), but the old one was still using Rain of Fire in the rotation (which it shouldn't anymore). I'm thinking that the RoF in the rotation is giving you an overly high value for haste.

    Here's Brusalk's latest APL for Destro: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post22519882

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by jason1975 View Post
    You and the AMR are pretty awesome, IMO. Thanks for the quick reply.

    Looks like a new Sim-c build came out this morning . . . in the meantime, what APL are you using to get those stat weights? I haven't checked the latest Sim-c profile for Destro (this morning's one), but the old one was still using Rain of Fire in the rotation (which it shouldn't anymore). I'm thinking that the RoF in the rotation is giving you an overly high value for haste.

    Here's Brusalk's latest APL for Destro: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post22519882
    For the PvE multi-target stat weights, I use 3 targets, so it does use Rain of Fire - since you'd definitely want to use it in that situation. I used the latest build of SimC for the tests of that trinket. It appears that the relationship is correct between haste/crit. I tried a few combinations of gear with and without it - with a bit lower weight on haste, and not. The current weights performed slightly better, which indicates that the relationship between the two stats is correct. It just... happens to fall at this interesting point where equipping that trinket flips which stat you would prefer.
    Mr. Robot Developer and Designer.

    Follow Mr. Robot on Twitter or Facebook for updates, feature releases, bug fixes.

  7. #7
    Deleted
    askmrrobot is pretty crap to be honest, you should never use it. only rely on simcraft and use addons to help you with reforge/stat weights with the info you got from simcraft.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by sayulol View Post
    askmrrobot is pretty crap to be honest, you should never use it. only rely on simcraft and use addons to help you with reforge/stat weights with the info you got from simcraft.
    It's a tool and the default weights are more for general use than they are for your individual character. Just like reforgelite and similar addons, you still have to get the weights from simc and put them into whatever minmaxing utility you decide to use.
    Last edited by Fanatik; 2013-09-26 at 10:51 PM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by revulva View Post
    For the PvE multi-target stat weights, I use 3 targets, so it does use Rain of Fire - since you'd definitely want to use it in that situation. I used the latest build of SimC for the tests of that trinket. It appears that the relationship is correct between haste/crit. I tried a few combinations of gear with and without it - with a bit lower weight on haste, and not. The current weights performed slightly better, which indicates that the relationship between the two stats is correct. It just... happens to fall at this interesting point where equipping that trinket flips which stat you would prefer.
    TY for the response. I got my wires crossed as it's clearly labelled "multi-target" on your values.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fanatik View Post
    It's a tool and the default weights are more for general use than they are for your individual character. Just like reforgelite and similar addons, you still have to get the weights from simc and put them into whatever minmaxing utility you decide to use.
    Quoted for just so much truth

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by sayulol View Post
    askmrrobot is pretty crap to be honest, you should never use it. only rely on simcraft and use addons to help you with reforge/stat weights with the info you got from simcraft.
    It's pretty clear you don't understand what AMR is. Perhaps you should investigate it before you just slam it out of ignorance. Do you even realize it is an "addon to help you with reforge/stat weights with the info you got from simcraft"?

    There's even a button to export out your character data to Simc.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoopercat View Post
    Hey, I'm from Ask Mr. Robot. Rustjive is right that it's due to the interaction with your amplification trinket, however it isn't a bug. Haste is weighted at 2.85 and Crit is at 3. So if you look at your main hand, 142 crit is reforged into 150 haste (when you factor in the 5.5% bonus from the amp trinket). So that score looks like this:
    142 crit * 3 = 426
    150 haste * 2.85 = 427.5

    So haste wins (JUST BARELY) in this case. Mr. Robot was being smart and factoring it in.

    We're actually going to use your profile to run a few tests to make sure those default weights turn out to be best with an amplification trinket. It's possible we adjust the value of Haste down, we'll know more after we run our tests.

    In the meantime, if you still want to favor crit, use this profile. I dropped the value of haste down to 2.6: http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/b...d-85357db80e88

    - - - Updated - - -

    A quick update, we did some tests with that trinket and it turns out our current weights are spot on. It's better to get more crit when you don't have the trinket, and haste when you do!
    Hey theyre mr I work for robot.
    How come destro locks are stacking mastery and reforging out of haste and crit?
    How come destro locks are using the regular meta instead of the legendary?
    How come mr robot doesnt tell people this stuff?

  13. #13
    Hey there person with no theory to back up his comments:

    People are stacking mastery because a few sites have decided that, instead of optimizing for single-target DPS, you should optimize based on the assumption that you can keep immolate and/or rain of fire on multiple targets for almost 100% of the time that you are burning your main target. If you agree that this is something you can do most of the time, you should go ahead and stack mastery. If you are just attacking one target, Crit is still the strongest stat. Simulation backs both of these strategies.

    I have no idea why people would use the regular meta instead of the legendary. Every simulation I have ever done still heavily favors the LMG in single and multi-target situations.

    We don't tell people to do sub-optimal things, like not use the LMG. We do tell them to stack mastery if they prefer: we provide a multi-target stat weight preset which favors mastery. That was the subject of this discussion.
    Mr. Robot Developer and Designer.

    Follow Mr. Robot on Twitter or Facebook for updates, feature releases, bug fixes.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by revulva View Post
    Hey there person with no theory to back up his comments:

    People are stacking mastery because a few sites have decided that, instead of optimizing for single-target DPS, you should optimize based on the assumption that you can keep immolate and/or rain of fire on multiple targets for almost 100% of the time that you are burning your main target. If you agree that this is something you can do most of the time, you should go ahead and stack mastery. If you are just attacking one target, Crit is still the strongest stat. Simulation backs both of these strategies.

    I have no idea why people would use the regular meta instead of the legendary. Every simulation I have ever done still heavily favors the LMG in single and multi-target situations.

    We don't tell people to do sub-optimal things, like not use the LMG. We do tell them to stack mastery if they prefer: we provide a multi-target stat weight preset which favors mastery. That was the subject of this discussion.
    What APLs have you been using for single target results?

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoopercat View Post
    Hey, I'm from Ask Mr. Robot. Rustjive is right that it's due to the interaction with your amplification trinket, however it isn't a bug. Haste is weighted at 2.85 and Crit is at 3. So if you look at your main hand, 142 crit is reforged into 150 haste (when you factor in the 5.5% bonus from the amp trinket). So that score looks like this:
    142 crit * 3 = 426
    150 haste * 2.85 = 427.5

    So haste wins (JUST BARELY) in this case. Mr. Robot was being smart and factoring it in.

    We're actually going to use your profile to run a few tests to make sure those default weights turn out to be best with an amplification trinket. It's possible we adjust the value of Haste down, we'll know more after we run our tests.

    In the meantime, if you still want to favor crit, use this profile. I dropped the value of haste down to 2.6: http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/b...d-85357db80e88

    - - - Updated - - -

    A quick update, we did some tests with that trinket and it turns out our current weights are spot on. It's better to get more crit when you don't have the trinket, and haste when you do!
    Wow, thanks for the quick response!

  16. #16
    Brusalk,

    The tests I did for the multi-target used the latest priority list in SimC 540-3. I am still in the process of re-testing the single target with this latest version of SimC. It looks like something has changed which is affecting the stat priority for single target - I'm still trying to figure out what the change was. Using SimC 540-1, Crit was definitely superior to Mastery for single target, but using 540-3, my initial tests are showing Mastery taking an edge.

    I compared the action lists in 540-1 and 540-3 - they look pretty similar: neither are using RoF for single target. The latest version seems to have taken out the immolate line that reacts to UVOL, but that wouldn't affect my tests.

    It looks like there was a change to ember generation between 540-1 and 540-2. That must be what is changing the results. I must have missed that hotfix on 09-13 that changed the ember generation rate of incinerate/conflagrate. It would make sense that Crit was stronger before the hotfix, since we were a bit ember-starved.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I went ahead and totally re-tested Destruction weights this morning with the latest version of SimC.

    I did find mastery to be the strongest stat for both single and multi-target situations now. For single-target, I am finding Crit > Haste, and for multi-target, Haste > Crit. This makes logical sense, since you can generate extra embers on the adds, reducing the relative value of Crit compared to a single-target fight. We'll update our stat weight defaults sometime today.

    One thing I found for sure was that the legendary meta gem is still stronger than the burning in all situations. The gap isn't very large, which is kind of disappointing, but it is still better.
    Mr. Robot Developer and Designer.

    Follow Mr. Robot on Twitter or Facebook for updates, feature releases, bug fixes.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by revulva View Post
    Brusalk,

    The tests I did for the multi-target used the latest priority list in SimC 540-3. I am still in the process of re-testing the single target with this latest version of SimC. It looks like something has changed which is affecting the stat priority for single target - I'm still trying to figure out what the change was. Using SimC 540-1, Crit was definitely superior to Mastery for single target, but using 540-3, my initial tests are showing Mastery taking an edge.

    I compared the action lists in 540-1 and 540-3 - they look pretty similar: neither are using RoF for single target. The latest version seems to have taken out the immolate line that reacts to UVOL, but that wouldn't affect my tests.

    It looks like there was a change to ember generation between 540-1 and 540-2. That must be what is changing the results. I must have missed that hotfix on 09-13 that changed the ember generation rate of incinerate/conflagrate. It would make sense that Crit was stronger before the hotfix, since we were a bit ember-starved.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I went ahead and totally re-tested Destruction weights this morning with the latest version of SimC.

    I did find mastery to be the strongest stat for both single and multi-target situations now. For single-target, I am finding Crit > Haste, and for multi-target, Haste > Crit. This makes logical sense, since you can generate extra embers on the adds, reducing the relative value of Crit compared to a single-target fight. We'll update our stat weight defaults sometime today.

    One thing I found for sure was that the legendary meta gem is still stronger than the burning in all situations. The gap isn't very large, which is kind of disappointing, but it is still better.
    I'll have to verify my results on the meta gem, but I'm glad we're now on the same page stat-wise.

  18. #18
    I have not run any math on this but, I have gone completely mastery for destro and the numbers generated in game are awesome. I think however this has partially to do with Woosh and Yulon's bite stacking as well. It makes for some fantastic ember dumps.

    For those of you out there not using affdots, I highly recommend this addon.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Related to this thread: Has normal + 8 UVLS been updated on askmrrobot to reflect the recent nerf?

    "•Unerring Vision of Lei Shen now has a 40% reduced chance to activate its effect for Warlocks."

    Currently, AMR is telling me UVLS is better than Yulon's Bite +8 for my profile which is Mastery>>Crit>Haste. I cannot think this to be true.

    Zoopercat: I could not message you directly as I only have one reply on MMO.

  19. #19
    Lockstepp, the site is updated with the new UVLS nerf I believe we got it updated late that night, or early the next day. We're usually pretty quick about those things since it can affect optimizations.
    Ask Mr. Robot Human Minion

  20. #20
    I did a quick update to UVLS, to get it in the ballpark. More accurate adjustments to the trinket are still incoming, but it shouldn't be too far off. Yulon's is not really testing out to be that strong a trinket compared to other trinkets.
    Mr. Robot Developer and Designer.

    Follow Mr. Robot on Twitter or Facebook for updates, feature releases, bug fixes.

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