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  1. #81
    Epic! Naztrak's Avatar
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    LFR and normal are all easy as fuck, HC is only for the best anyways.
    PvE is a minigame // Rerolled from affly to spriest after 8 years, thx pandaland changes

  2. #82
    Herald of the Titans Blitzo's Avatar
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    They had to make things "more complex" or everyone would clear content week 1.

    Oh, wait ...
    “It is either easy or impossible.” - Salvador Dali

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    Blitzo[Warrior] -Rex[Hunter] -Jax [Warlock] -
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  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    It only shows that raids got more sophisticated in dealing with raids and mechanics. The amount of analysis done on a boss is ridiculous. And seeing how all Blizzard can come up with is to throw yet more abilities at us, it's not surprising.

    Also, peoplle seem to forget that we're basically still using the same dozen or so mechanics that people had to deal with in Vanilla. Just more of them simultanously. There's only so many ways you can run out of the fire or deal with meteor damage. Is it more complex? Sure. More difficult to deal with the mechanics? Not so much. Meteor damage was introduced in AQ40 and since then it hasn't changed one bit. Why the bosses are falling so quickly, you ask? Because we've known how to beat these bosses for 9 years now.
    True, but in my opinion is the main reason, that Blizzard made everything way more complex, but in general easier. Especially the classes. You have shitloads of cooldowns, skills ... if you want to use them all, it's already difficult to keybind them.
    But you don't really need them, as long as you are not going really hardcore. It's just an option most raiders don't use.

    In TBC and Vanilla did we have less spells, but different ranks and the way we had to use them, was what matters. Healing is in my opinion quite boring nowadays - not so many decisions to be made, it's rarely the case, that I have to think if I should cast this spell now or that I have the feeling that it really matters what I use. It's usually quite obvious if I have to go in an aoe-rotation or single target healing. I don't have to worry about threat, the placement of my totems, 5-second-rules, keeping something in CC during boss fight ...
    It doesn't matter anymore where you place a player in the raid - buffs are raid wide anyway.
    I can't be anymore a good shaman, by knowing exactly what totems to use in which kind of group or when to switch them. They are just there and I'm done.

    So yes, for me beeing a casual and mainly leveling since Wrath, I feel overwhelmed by the tons of skills I have and annoyed by the fact, that I don't really need them and that eyerything is just faceroll easy. At least until you hit heroic mode, where you are required to raid at least 3 times a week, something I have never done and will never do.

    I haven't tried flex raids yet, but I hope that they might bring some of the "middle class" raiding back again. I'd love to be finally a bit challenged again and not only have to decide between bored and too "difficult". It has a reason why I was never in a hardcore raid guild although many wanted me to join.
    Last edited by Laily; 2013-09-26 at 11:59 AM.

  4. #84
    Pit Lord Alltat's Avatar
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    The average Molten Core fight was so incredibly simple that it makes LFR SoO look like upside-down rocket surgery. The hardest part about raiding at level 60 was convincing 40 people to show up on time. The average player was so horribly bad that on Baron Geddon, whose only notable mechanic was to give players a debuff that made them explode after about ten seconds, you actually split up the raid to minimize the damage done by the idiot who would inevitably blow up the raid. In contrast, the SoO LFR group I got this week one-shotted Iron Juggernaut without any tactics required beyond "there's lots of stuff, dodge it".

    But really, what we need is just a TL;DR version of the dungeon journal. At least 75% of the stuff in it is irrelevant. If I can't do anything to prevent it anyway, there's no point in informing me about the names and specific mechanics of the four different forms of raid-wide damage that each fight has. If you assume that every fight involves AoE damage, tank swapping and stuff you don't want to stand in, most SoO fights can be explained in a sentence or two.
    Diplomacy is just war by other means.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Some called it a legendary check, but yeah. You got it.
    We killed him without legendaries, but then, we were utilizing group swapping to the max - melee group getting all the bloodlusts, perma drums there, two very skilled shamans who managed to totem twist while doing competitive dps...

    Quote Originally Posted by Naztrak View Post
    LFR and normal are all easy as fuck, HC is only for the best anyways.
    this is what I have issues with. The difficulty jump from normal to heroic is huge.

  6. #86
    Uhm.. if you're trying to say that raiding has social and theory-of-mind difficulty with stereotyped interests and repetitive behavior then I am not sure I agree with that statement.

    If that's not what you're saying then I think you are using the word "autistic" incorrectly.
    Normal is the name for the mental disorder present in the majority of humanity.
    Xinjun

  7. #87
    You entire post falls short on the presumption that a lot of abilities = hard fight
    Paragons of the klaxxi is a very very simple fight and is basically just kill boss kill add move from shit. Nobody in our raid group even bothered reading tactics for it.

    Also +1 for selective comparisons. The rest of the bosses in that instance had a lot more abilities than most SoO bosses yet you chose the patchwerk fights that were not designed to be complex, just a gear check. The idea of patchwerk fights seems to have fallen off the table now, they just dont create patchwerk fights anymore, so if you compare a fight like brut to a newer fight, yes it is gonna have less mechanics.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Soulstrike View Post
    why are you comparing a patchwork style fight to council fight..... very bad example

    malkrok and brutallus is something you should compare
    This.

    Let's not forget tuning, either. Difficulty isn't comprised solely on mechanics alone...when was the last time you actually had to worry about an enrage timer? Sunwell 1.0 required 22+ players to have Leatherworking (aside from Kalecgos and Felmyst, but they still helped) for the notorious permanent drum haste buff.

    SoO normal is NOT EVEN CLOSE to as tightly tuned as Sunwell 1.0

    Now, heroic is an entirely different story...but I'll even venture to say that M'uru 1.0 is still up there as far as raw difficulty (maybe not mechanical, but certainly in tuning) as anything in SoO heroic (OK, Blackfuse / Paragons / Garrosh are probably all more difficult).

    So yes, fights are more "complex" in that players need to be aware of more boss abilities, but the overwhelming majority of raiders aren't having to deal with razor's-edge style tuning, making it easier to be aware of such mechanics. Oh, and let's not forget the more diverse toolkits across all classes to deal with the increased number of "big damage things to worry about" (we're talking cooldowns here, people)...which makes all of these aforementioned mechanics more forgiving.

    edit: I'm tired of saying mechanics.
    Last edited by Toxigen; 2013-09-26 at 12:31 PM.

    "There are two types of guys in this world. Guys who sniff their fingers after scratching their balls, and dirty fucking liars." -StylesClashv3
    "Elo Hell is where the Ego is greater than the Elo." -Bystekhilcar

  9. #89
    I'm not saying this to be rude, but what the hell does autism have to do with raiding? It's a pervasive development disorder that primarily affects communication and the neural network. And if it was your way of 'nicely' saying 'retarded', then that's kind of fucked up.

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  10. #90
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluttershy View Post
    Compare attumen to stone guards.

    Now,

    Brutallus
    >meteor slash -> Deal's 20,000 damage split between everyone 65 yards in front of brutallus, fire damage taken is increased by 75% afterwards
    >Burn -> Deals increasing fire damage, can affect other allies within 5 yards
    >Stomp -> Deals 10,000 physical damage and reduces armor by 50%, removes burn.


    Paragon's of the Klaxxi
    Paragon's Purpose – Whenever a Klaxxi Paragon is defeated, all other active Klaxxi Paragons heal to full and gain a 10% damage bonus.
    Paragon's Purpose – Whenever a Klaxxi Paragon is defeated all other active Klaxxi Paragons heal to full. All active Paragons gain a stacking 10% damage bonus every 30 seconds.
    ImportantReady to Fight – Klaxxi Paragons with this aura on them will be the next to join the fight. Before the fight begins, three Klaxxi Paragons will have this aura. When the encounter begins all three of these Paragons join the encounter and one other Paragon will gain this aura to indicate that they will join the fight next.Everytime a new Klaxxi Paragon joins the fight, one of the inactive Klaxxi Paragons will gain this aura.
    ImportantPower of the Paragons

    After a Paragon has been defeated, one player may take the fallen Paragon's powers to use as their own. Only one player can take any one Paragon's power, and a player may only take a Paragon's power once during the encounter.Each Paragon's powers can only be acquired by particular class roles.


    TankKil'ruk the Wind-Reaver
    TankExposed Veins – Kil'ruk the Wind-Reaver's sharp blades expose the blood vessels of his victims, making them more susceptible to the attacks of Xaril the Poisoned Mind.All damage taken from Xaril the Poisoned Mind is increased 10% for each application of Exposed Veins
    ImportantTankHealerGouge – Kil'ruk the Wind-Reaver incapacitates his current tank target. This attack is followed immediately by Mutilate.
    DeadlyTankHealerMutilate – Kil'ruk the Wind-Reaver lashes out with both of his weapons for a devastating attack.
    Death from Above – Kil'ruk the Wind-Reaver leaps into the air over a random player and then crashes down. Kil'ruk inflicts Physical damage to all enemies within 5 yards upon landing.
    TankReave – Kil'ruk leaps to a random player and begins to spin in place. All players are drawn toward Kil'ruk and suffer Physical damage for 9 sec. The damage each player suffers during Reave is decreased as the player gets away from Kil'ruk.
    DPSReave – Players of the damage dealer role may acquire this power. Activating this ability causes the caster to leap forward a fixed distance and inflict Physical damage to all enemies within 10 yards of the impact.

    4 If a Hungry Kunchong with a Thick Shell is in the area of impact, the Thick Shell will be disabled.
    TankXaril the Poisoned Mind
    ImportantToxic Injection – When Xaril joins the encounter, he randomly injects all players with one of three different toxins: red, blue, or yellow.
    TankCaustic Blood – Successful melee strikes from Xaril inject a caustic poison into the victim. The injection inflicts 50000 Nature damage per application to the target every second for 12 sec. If the injection is allowed to stack to 10, a Bloody Explosion occurs.Caustic Blood will fail to hit tanks who are using their Active Mitigation abilities.
    DeadlyBloody Explosion – Allowing Caustic Blood to apply 10 times results in a Bloody Explosion, inflicting 600000 Fire Damage to the entire raid.
    TankTenderizing Strikes – Xaril's dagger strikes tenderize the flesh of his victim. Any attacks received from Kil'ruk the Wind-Reaver will inflict 10% more damage for each application of Tenderizing Strikes.
    ImportantChoose Catalyst – Xaril the Poisoned Mind selects a catalyst at random and strikes all members of the raid with a toxin that matches the color of the catalyst. This catalyst causes all targets' toxins to react according to the type of toxin.
    Catalytic Reaction: Red – When this toxin reacts to a red catalyst it explodes for 390000 to 410000 Fire damage to all players within 10 yards.
    Catalytic Reaction: Blue – When this toxin reacts to a blue catalyst it explodes for 800000 Frost damage divided among all players within 10 yards.

    In 10 Player Difficulty, the maximum number of targets that can split the damage is limited to 2.

    In 25 Player Difficulty the maximum number of targets that can split the damage is limited to 3.
    Catalytic Reaction: Yellow – When this toxin reacts to a yellow catalyst it creates a cloud of Noxious Vapors for 30 sec. Player caught in the cloud suffer 146250 to 153750 Nature damage per second.
    Catalytic Reaction: Orange – When either a yellow toxin or a red toxin reacts to this catalyst, a ring of Fire explodes outward. Players do not see or need to react to the ring that forms at their own feet; but must avoid those rings that are created by their allies.
    Catalytic Reaction: Purple – When either a blue toxin or red toxin reacts to this catalyst the victim will be forced to run forward, leaving a trail of Canned Heat in their wake for 40 sec. Players stepping into the area suffer 121875 to 128125 Fire damage every second they remain in the area.
    Catalytic Reaction: Green – When either a blue or yellow toxin reacts to this catalyst a small cloud of Eerie Fog will form and wander about randomly. Players who enter the area suffer 121875 to 128125 Nature damage per second for 9 sec. Entering the area Chills victims to the Bone, increasing the damage received from the Eerie Fog by 30% for 1 min.Every time a player enters the area the fog reduces in size. When it has been reduced in size 3 times it will dissipate.
    HealerVast Apothecarial Knowledge – Players in the healer role may acquire this Paragon Power. When Apothecary: Knowledge is activated, all healing done for the next 10 sec will leave a Volatile Poultice on the target for an amount equal to the healing done. The next time the target is damaged, the Volatile Poultice releases the stored healing on the target.
    Kaz'tik the Manipulator
    Hungry Kunchongs – These Hungry Kunchongs are summoned by Kaz'tik the Manipulator. Whenever one dies Kaz'tik will summon another to take its place.
    ImportantDPSDevour – When Kaz'tik the Manipulator Mesmerizes a player, a Hungry kunchong is selected to feed on the victim. While the Kunchong Feeds the victim suffers 100000 Physical damage and the Kunchong gains 7 Energy each second. If the Kunchong suffers 30% of its total health in damage from the time it began to Feed on the victim, the Feeding will stop and the victim will be freed of the Mesmerize.
    DeadlyDevour Whole – Hungry Kunchongs will instantly kill any player who gets too close. The process energizes the Hungry Kunchong to full.
    Thick Shell – When not in the process of Feeding, Hungry Kunchongs are immune to all damage.The impact of the player ability, Angel of Death, gained from Kil'ruk after he has been defeated will disable a Hungry Kunchong's Thick Shell.
    DeadlyMolt – A Hungry Kunchong that reaches full energy will Molt. The process transforms the Hungry Kunchong into a Mature Kunchong.
    Mature Kunchong – Mature Kunchongs will ignore normal attempts to control them and attack any players nearby with their newly acquired ability: Swipe.
    Swipe – The Mature Kunchong swings both of its massive pincers, inflicting 600000 Physical damage to all targets in front of it.
    DeadlyMesmerize – Kaz'tik selects a random member of the raid and forces them to walk toward one of his Hungry Kunchongs. If the victim is allowed to reach the Kunchong they will be Devoured Whole.
    DeadlySonic Projection – Kaz'tik selects a random member of the raid and fires a sonic wave in their direction. Player caught in the path of the wave suffer 346875 to 403125 Physical damage.
    Master of Puppets – Players of any role may acquire this power. When activated the player summons an Immature Kunchong to fight at their side for 40 sec.
    TankKorven the Prime
    DPSEncase in Amber – If Korven the Prime or any other active Paragon is below 50% health remaining Korven will Encase them in Amber for 10 sec. If the amber is not defeated within 10 sec the target will be restored to full health.This ability cannot be used more than once every 30 seconds.

    4 The explosion from the Hurl Amber ability acquired from Ka'roz after he has been defeated will destroy the amber summoned by this ability.

    In Heroic Difficulties the Amber summoned by this ability is immune to all player abilities.
    TankHealerShield Bash – Korven the Prime slams his shield into his primary tank target, knocking them down and stunning them for 6 sec. The victim is defenseless for the duration.Immediately after using Shield Bash, Korven the Prime unleashes a Vicious Assault.
    TankHealerVicious Assault – Korven the Prime follows up his Shield Bash with 6 different strikes at all targets in front of him. The first strike causes the victim to suffer 200000 Physical damage every 3 seconds. Each successive strike inflicts greater and greater Physical damage.
    TankMaster of Amber – A player of the tank role can acquire this Paragon Power. When activated the caster Encases a friendly target in Amber for 5 sec. While the amber holds the target is immune to all damage.
    Iyyokuk the Lucid
    Calculate – When Iyyokuk the Lucid enters the fight he perceives the general attributes of all players and notes the result of his calculations on each target.These calculations are noted with a shape, a color, and a number.Possible shapes are:- Mantid- Sword- Staff- Sonic Ring- AmberPossible colors are:- Red- Purple- Blue- Green- YellowPossible Numbers Range from 1 to 5.
    Diminish – Iyyokuk uses his command of the arcane to alter the victim's health by 34% of its current value. If the target is below 25% of their maximum health they will die instantly.
    ImportantInsane Calculation: Fiery Edge – Iyyokuk peers through the veil of his previous calculations and selects an initial target, then all other targets based on the initial target's criteria to spawn lines of fire between them. All targets and any victims caught in the lines between them suffer Fire damage every second. The damage decreases as the endpoints of the line get further away from one another.

    In 10 Player Normal and Raid Finder Difficulties, Iyyokuk selects all targets that match one of the intial target's criteria.

    4 In Flexible Raid Mode, Iyyokuk selects all targets that match either of one or two of the initial target's criteria.

    In 25 Player Normal Difficulty, Iyyokuk selects all targets that match any of two of the initial target's three critera.

    In 10 Player Heroic Difficulty, Iyyokuk selects all targets that match any of two of the initial target's three critera.

    in 25 Player Heroic Difficulty, Iyyokuk selects all targets that match any of the initial target's three criteria.

    In Heroic Difficulty, each target creates a line of fire between themselves and two other targets.
    HealerIngenious – Players of the healer role can acquire this Paragon Power. When activated the caster heals the initial target. The heal is then copied to other members of the raid.

    In Normal and Raid Finder Difficulties the heal is copied to anyone that shares the race or class of the initial target.

    In Heroic Difficulty the heal is copied to all other raid members who share the class of the initial target.
    TankKa'roz the Locust
    Flash – Ka'roz charges around the raid toward random targets. All players caught in his path are afflicted by Whirling.
    DeadlyWhirling – Player caught in Ka'roz's path as he Flashes around spin around and suffer 200000 Physical damage per second. Any other players caught in the vicinity of a Whirling victim also suffer this damage.
    Hurl Amber – Ka'roz will periodically jump up to one of the platforms located about the room and Hurl Amber down at his enemies. Wherever the amber lands a pool of Caustic Amber will form. Players that enter a pool of Caustic Amber will suffer 138750 to 161250 Nature damage every second they remain in the area.

    4 In non-Heroic Difficulties, Ka'roz hurls three pieces of amber.

    In Heroic Difficulty Ka'roz hurls four pieces of amber and the pool of Caustic Amber persists for the duration of the encounter.
    Strong Legs – Players of the damage dealer role can acquire this Paragon Power. When activated the player leaps to one of the platforms Ka'roz used to Hurl Amber from. If there is an amber at the platform the player leapt to they have the opportunity to throw the amber down to create an Amber Explosion for 300000 Nature damage to all enemies within 15 yards of the impact. If there is no amber at the platform or when the player successfully throws the amber they will jump back down automatically.

    4 Hurled Amber will destroy the amber summoned by Korven to heal himself or his allies.
    TankSkeer the Bloodseeker
    TankHewn – The attacks of Skeer the Bloodseeker leave the victim more susceptible to the meddling of Rik'kal the Dissector's attacks. The victim suffers 10% more damage per application from Rik'kal the Dissector.
    TankBloodletting – Skeer swings his weapon in a mighty arc, inflicting Physical damage to the target and causing blood creatures to spawn around the room.Each blood moves to a Paragon and will heal that Paragon based on the remaining health of the blood.

    In 10 Player Normal Difficulty 2 bloods are summoned.

    In 25 Player Normal Difficulty 3 bloods are summoned.

    In 10 Player Heroic Difficulty 3 bloods are summoned.

    In 25 Player Heroic Difficulty 4 bloods are summoned.

    In Raid Finder Difficulty 1 blood is summoned.

    4 In Flexible Difficulty 2-3 bloods are summoned.
    DPSBloodthirsty – Players of the damage dealer role can acquire this Paragon Power. When activated all attacks over the next 10 sec have a chance to spawn blood orbs that persist for 30 sec. If any player walks through a blood orb they will heal for 10% of their maximum health.
    TankRik'kal the Dissector
    TankGenetic Alteration – Rik'kal's meddling with his victim's genetic makeup leaves them more susceptible to the attacks of Skeer the Bloodseeker. Victims suffer an additional 10% damage from Skeer the Bloodseeker for each application of Genetic Alteration.
    TankInjection – Rik'kal Injects his victim with a virus that inflicts 10000 Nature damage per second per application. When the virus expires, several Parasites will burst from the victim and attack players at random.Injection will not hit tanks that are actively trying to mitigate damage.
    DPSAmber Parasite – Amber Parasites are Genetically Modified and fixate on a random player when they spawn. The Amber Parasite Feeds on the fixated target.
    Genetic Modifications – Rik'kal's Bioengineering abilities have given these parasites the ability to fully regenerate every 10 seconds.
    Feed – Amber Parasites inflict 97500 to 102500 Physical damage each second.
    HealerMutate: Amber Scorpion – Rik'kal tosses a vial at a random player, causing them to mutate into an Amber Scorpion. While transformed, the victim suffers 50000 Nature damage per second and only has access to the abilities of an Amber Scorpion.Damage inflicted as an Amber Scorpion is based on the player's Attack Power, Ranged Attack Power, or Spell Power, whichever is largest.
    DPSClaw – Amber Scorpions can lash out with one of their claws for 100% damage.
    DPSSwipe – The Amber Scorpion sweeps both of its claws in front of it, inflicting 150% damage to all targets in the area. Targets currently under the effects of Sting suffer double damage.
    DPSSting – The Amber Scorpion Stings the target, causing it to suffer Nature damage every second.
    DPSPrey – Mutated Scorpions can instantly kill an Amber Parasite with this ability.

    In Heroic Difficulties mutated victims must use this ability or perish from Faulty Mutation.
    HeroicDeadlyFaulty Mutation – In Heroic Difficulties, mutated victims suffer a Faulty Mutation. If the victim fails to Prey on an Amber Parasite before the Faulty Mutation expires they will perish.
    Mad Scientist – Players of any role can acquire this Paragon Power. When activated the caster mutates into a giant amber scorpion. Damage inflicted by the scorpion is based on the highest available attack or spell power of the caster. While mutated the caster suffers 50000 Physical damage per second from the shock. The mutation lasts for 30 sec.
    Hisek the Swarmkeeper
    HealerMulti-Shot – Hisek the Swarmkeeper fires a shot at several random players for Physical damage.
    Rapid Fire – Hisek fires several volleys in rapid succession, with each successive volley moving slightly faster than the previous one. Players caught in the path of the volleys suffer 285000 to 315000 Physical damage each second they are in the volley.
    ImportantAim – Hisek the Swarmkeeper selects a player at random and stuns them for 5 sec. If the target is too close they will be knocked back until they are 45 yards from Hisek.After Hisek is finished aiming at the target he will Fire a beam of 1400000 Physical damage at all targets between him and the victim. Damage is shared between all targets equally and each target hit by the beam will create a field of Sonic Resonance at their location that inflicts 92500 to 107500 Physical damage to all targets within 0 yards of the victim.
    DPSCompound Eye – Players of the damage dealer role can acquire this Paragon Power. When activated, the player fires a shot at the target that inflicts greater Physical damage the further away the target is. Successfully hitting the target afflicts it with Marked for Death, increasing its damage taken by 15% for 10 sec.



    Really now.
    this thread takes steps to overcomplicate itself.
    raiding is fine.





    There is no bad RNG only bad L2P

  11. #91
    Yes yes a thousand times, yes. Its utterly ridiculous now.

    Man I miss T7.

  12. #92
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by label strew View Post
    if this was to be even remotley true then why did such an small percentage of the playerbase(what was it like 6%? if not less) see naxx40?
    .
    More like 0.6%.

    Approx 6% is what you get these days if you consider an average raidsize of 15 ppl (to allow for 10 and 25 man guilds) and see that 34 000 guilds were 1/12 normal in T 15..then we speak of 500 000 raiders

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    this thread takes steps to overcomplicate itself.
    raiding is fine.
    ...and you needed to quote the entire post for that?
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  13. #93
    I guarantee, if you took Method and 15 players from Blood Legion, put them on a private server, and told them you'd give them a million dollars each for clearing Naxx 40, or Sunwell, or AQ 40, or whatever the fuck your raid of choice is, they'd kill all those bosses so fast it would make your head spin and the time actually spent on bosses would be so little it would utterly shatter the original world first records. People are better at the game than they used to be, deal with it.

    And yes, I'm obviously talking about servers where the raid they'd be doing was being ran on the patch that it was released on.
    If Goku's power level increases at the same rate till the end of DBGT as it does till the end of the Frieza saga, as a SS4 Goku would have a PL of roughly 939 Quinoctogintillion. For reference that is a 260 digit number. A PL of 14,600 is required to destroy an earth sized planet. There are about 2 nonillion earths worth of mass in the universe. That means SS4 Goku can destroy the universe about 32 Octosexagintillion times over. There's a reason they made Goku a god at the end of GT.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Varish View Post
    and people still pretend vanilal and bc was harder
    Was way harder, just less complex and silly. Nowadays raids are much more forgiving than they used to be.

  15. #95
    Herald of the Titans T Man's Avatar
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    tbf you are comparing a boss with mutil adds to a boss that is a stand alone boss.

  16. #96
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laily View Post
    It's always fun when people that haven't raided in Vanilla or BC claim how easy it was.

    Yes, mechanics are more complex now, but if you want to have a feeling for how it was back in those days, I'd recommend you to

    a) Disable Omen

    c) Have a Pally tank without Righteous Fury (this is the skill, that increases agro, isn't it?) or any other tank beeing most of the time afk, so you'd have the low amount of agro again

    g) try a Tank rotation without Omen and tanks doing almost no threat (I guess a Pally tank without Righteous Fury? would come close to it)

    Try all of this and then come back and tell me it's easy ...
    Yes, fights are more complex today, but in my opinion do they no longer require the amount of teamwork needed in Vanilla or TBC - that's why I only raid casually since Wrath - in my opinion is it way easier, but more complex. A change that I don't like.

    oddly enough. on the pull where we killed sha of pride I was taking so little damage that i swapped over to ret spec for 300 strength food buff before pulling. i forgot to turn on righteous fury and we did just fine. it was work keeping ahead of the bear tank during my turn and I felt like an utter scrub when i figured out what was going on, but yeah a decent rotation can make up for some awesome derp.

    and omen although nice is not necessary with voice coms, which every raider uses, and target of target somewhere on your screen.





    There is no bad RNG only bad L2P

  17. #97
    I don't think so. It's just like any game, it evolves as its players do in complexity.

    The original GTA is way more complex than the new GTA.

    COD/Halo is way more complex than Doom.

    Etc, etc.

    I enjoy the complexity.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Laurcus View Post
    I guarantee, if you took Method and 15 players from Blood Legion, put them on a private server, and told them you'd give them a million dollars each for clearing Naxx 40, or Sunwell, or AQ 40, or whatever the fuck your raid of choice is, they'd kill all those bosses so fast it would make your head spin and the time actually spent on bosses would be so little it would utterly shatter the original world first records. People are better at the game than they used to be, deal with it.

    And yes, I'm obviously talking about servers where the raid they'd be doing was being ran on the patch that it was released on.
    That isn't the point of the thread. We all know how far ahead current guilds are than the SKs, Death and Taxes, etc of old.

    Re-read the bolded part of my previous post and see if you disagree.

    edit: I'd still like to add that only one guild in the world killed M'uru 1.0 (and it wasn't bugged / "mathematically impossible").
    Last edited by Toxigen; 2013-09-26 at 01:15 PM.

    "There are two types of guys in this world. Guys who sniff their fingers after scratching their balls, and dirty fucking liars." -StylesClashv3
    "Elo Hell is where the Ego is greater than the Elo." -Bystekhilcar

  19. #99
    I remember that many of the vanilla bosses were about endurance and preparation. I think one of our Nefarian-kills took like 20+ minutes. And in MC you weren't even supposed to survive. We had a healer that could stay out of combat and res us as we died. We had to consider resistance gear, pots, threat meters and boss spesific macros. And there were a handful of bosses that required quite a few tanks. I would often hot-swap from 2-hander to sword'n board just to keep the adds from wiping the raid. I don't know the modern raids outside LFR, but back then it seemed like it was easier to wipe the raid. In LFR, you die because you did something rather reckless or stupid, and you die alone. In vanilla you get some kind of debuff and wipe the raid. And also those annoying LOS mechanics. The Instructor in Naxx would wipe us if the different people weren't positioned perfectly, and I remember that the flying dragons in BWL gave you a very serious fire damage debuff if you didn't wait out the duration behind a wall where he couldnt see you. I don't really miss that part....the only thing I miss is having a shammy in my grp with the old winfury totem. It doubled my damage output
    Mother pus bucket!

  20. #100
    Scarab Lord
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    It's an issue now the gap between the top and the bottom.

    There's so many resources available online and so many that read them now that if Blizzard made bosses as simple (in general) as the old ones then a large number of raiders would stomp the shit out of them unless they made them all tough gear checks.

    So they have to keep making bosses have tons of mechannics and things to watch out for and this means unless the mechanics get toned down then they're very tough for entry raiders

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