Has raiding become too overcomplicated/convoluted for it's own good?

[Deleted]

Furthermore do you honestly think an LFR raid would come anywhere near to clearing a Heroic boss even in say i570 ?

[judgementofantonidas]

OFC is it not necessary (otherwise no boss would have died in Vanilla ), but it makes life way easier. Raiding with tanks that generate way less threat than they do nowadays (and the threat generation was already increased a lot in TBC - in Vanilla it was way worse) and no Omen is like a full boss mechanic beeing there by default.

Same with the issues with healer mana in Vanilla or the healing cd rotation. This are things that are not listed on any list of mechanics, but have always been there.

And I love how some compare MC, the entry raid, the raid where everbody had to learn what raiding in WoW is about, to the last tier of the current expansion.

I had very little responsibility during early raids as I was just another huntard. Although I was a huntard that was competative if not better than the majority of mages on my server.

[Odina]

, the real work took place in the raid, not on youtube.

Did you really raid in vanilla or were you carried? I ask becuase ..

Farm pots
Farm resist gear
farm wepon enhancement "wizzard oil, sharpening stone etc"
farm food
farm for your buff by killing countless animals in balsted lands (DAMN YOU BASILIK BRAINS)
Farm as many tubers in felwood as you could
Get "that new guy" atunement
Run DM for that other new guy that is missing gear
Farm for cloth so you have bandages
Farm gold for repairs


I spent more time farming for Vanilla raids than I do for todays raids by far! I gladly take the 10 mins to read a strat on icy veins for a couple mins and watch a spe/class apropriate pov for the fight I'm about to do > all that damn progress farming!

Remeber Nefarian during progress? WHO didnt get there invul potions? GG how are you going to live through skellys now?

[Deldavala]

OFC is it not necessary (otherwise no boss would have died in Vanilla ), but it makes life way easier. Raiding with tanks that generate way less threat than they do nowadays (and the threat generation was already increased a lot in TBC - in Vanilla it was way worse) and no Omen is like a full boss mechanic beeing there by default.

Same with the issues with healer mana in Vanilla or the healing cd rotation. This are things that are not listed on any list of mechanics, but have always been there.

And I love how some compare MC, the entry raid, the raid where everbody had to learn what raiding in WoW is about, to the last tier of the current expansion.

If you had a semi competent tank threat wasnt an issue after about 10-15sec. If they had the legendary it was faceroll. Threat was only a problem when you had bad tanks or DPS that had to start before the tank could position the boss and get 3 sunders.

[Toxigen]

Did you really raid in vanilla or were you carried? I ask becuase ..

Farm pots
Farm resist gear
farm wepon enhancement "wizzard oil, sharpening stone etc"
farm food
farm for your buff by killing countless animals in balsted lands (DAMN YOU BASILIK BRAINS)
Farm as many tubers in felwood as you could
Get "that new guy" atunement
Run DM for that other new guy that is missing gear
Farm for cloth so you have bandages
Farm gold for repairs


I spent more time farming for Vanilla raids than I do for todays raids by far! I gladly take the 10 mins to read a strat on icy veins for a couple mins and watch a spe/class apropriate pov for the fight I'm about to do > all that damn progress farming!

Remeber Nefarian during progress? WHO didnt get there invul potions? GG how are you going to live through skellys now?

Farming doesn't equate to difficulty.

I still have nightmares about Loatheb, though (only people who did it know what I'm talking about).

[Deldavala]

Did you really raid in vanilla or were you carried? I ask becuase ..

Farm pots
Farm resist gear
farm wepon enhancement "wizzard oil, sharpening stone etc"
farm food
farm for your buff by killing countless animals in balsted lands (DAMN YOU BASILIK BRAINS)
Farm as many tubers in felwood as you could
Get "that new guy" atunement
Run DM for that other new guy that is missing gear
Farm for cloth so you have bandages
Farm gold for repairs


I spent more time farming for Vanilla raids than I do for todays raids by far! I gladly take the 10 mins to read a strat on icy veins for a couple mins and watch a spe/class apropriate pov for the fight I'm about to do > all that damn progress farming!

Remeber Nefarian during progress? WHO didnt get there invul potions? GG how are you going to live through skellys now?

Or you could be in a good guild that payed that out to their core rooster. We earned so much money from BWL and out, selling 10-15 spots in MC each week. The only thing you needed to farm was the tubers and demonic runes in Felwood(they werent really needed anyways)

Regarding Nefarian. Stacking all the healers so the skellies come towards them and then aoe them to bits was a much better tactic

[Deleted]

I had very little responsibility during early raids as I was just another huntard. Although I was a huntard that was competative if not better than the majority of mages on my server.

I've been healer through whole Vanilla, Healer as main in TBC (still Shaman) and as an alt and backup tank a Pally in TBC.
Officer in my guild in Vanilla and few months in TBC, til my guild decided to go hardcore and I founded my own "semi-casual" raid guild.
I know the hardcore raiding part since my bf was officer in a hardcore guild during Vanilla and TBC.
I quit WoW for a year after maybe one month after Ulduar release when I realized that there is no longer a place for raiders like me. I love challenges, I love wiping for weeks on a boss, I love tuning my char, I love farming resitance gear, potions, readings tactics, tuning my UI ... but I don't enjoy the requirements of hardcore raiding. So I'm a mascot in a successfull hardcore raiding guild since Wrath and although they want me to be a full raider, is this heroic raiding too time consuming and hard for me.
And while I can live almost all changes is this what I can't forgive Blizzard. They simply removed a whole "type" of raiding.
As other have already stated - the gap between normal and heroic is just too big.
For me it's boring to kill 4 bosses the first week on normal and then only come back to farm for gear (never been an itemwhore - I always only considered it as a tool).

So long story short: I still remember a lot from Vanilla, TBC and beginning of Wrath. I still have some of my tactic posts, guild rules, videos ... here.

[Odina]

Farming doesn't equate to difficulty.

I still have nightmares about Loatheb, though (only people who did it know what I'm talking about).

O I agree but I was asking because the poster I quoted said they did all teh work "IN RAID" in vanilla and not on youtube ... teh vanilla equivalent to reading a lot of strats and watching vids was countless hours of farming!

[Deleted]

If you had a semi competent tank threat wasnt an issue after about 10-15sec. If they had the legendary it was faceroll. Threat was only a problem when you had bad tanks or DPS that had to start before the tank could position the boss and get 3 sunders.

That's nonsense. Tanks generated way less threat than today. That's a simple fact.
And it was common to wipe because someone critted too early and dps always had to be careful.
When we killed Kael in TBC we "borrowed" a tank (their MT) from a hardcore raid guild (actually the top guild of our server - our own MT had an accident and Kael required lots of tanks). He was decked in epics and still did the DPS have to watch the threat meters. Ask maybe a good rogue about how often they died because of crits

And during Vanilla was it especially during the lower tiers common to wait quite some time before starting to heal / dps. You really seem to forget that loot was not this available back then.
During whole Vanilla did not a single Hunter T1 leg drop for our guild for example and we only got 2 legendaries.

But yes, ofc, if you have been in a hardcore raiding guild with all people in quite equal gear, then threat was not as much of an issue as for the normal raider. And ofc was threat not an issue if you were dragged through MC by a guild that had it on farm. But I'm talking here about the average progressing guild and their everyday life.

[dyzz]

Raiding now is pretty... lackluster at best. It seems now they just throw more aoe at you and more damage, and have dumbed down alot of "complex" classes to be relatively simple. BC was the last of my "fun" as a raider. Ulduar was ok, ICC was fun, but the whole "Kill everything twice for heroic mode" really dulled the game.

- - - Updated - - -

That's nonsense. Tanks generated way less threat than today. That's a simple fact.
And it was common to wipe because someone critted too early and dps always had to be careful.
When we killed Kael in TBC we "borrowed" a tank (their MT) from a hardcore raid guild (actually the top guild of our server - our own MT had an accident and Kael required lots of tanks). He was decked in epics and still did the DPS have to watch the threat meters. Ask maybe a good rogue about how often they died because of crits

And during Vanilla was it especially during the lower tiers common to wait quite some time before starting to heal / dps. You really seem to forget that loot was not this available back then.
During whole Vanilla did not a single Hunter T1 leg drop for our guild for example and we only got 2 legendaries.

But yes, ofc, if you have been in a hardcore raiding guild with all people in quite equal gear, then threat was not as much of an issue as for the normal raider. And ofc was threat not an issue if you were dragged through MC by a guild that had it on farm. But I'm talking here about the average progressing guild and their everyday life.

I remember having to vanish on cooldown because of threat... with combat daggers even with Thunderfury on the tank.

[MrHappy]

even if you compare it to immerseus which is the simplest fight in SoO it is STILL more complicated in mechanics than anything in vanilla/classic had

[Sarevokcz]

That's nonsense. Tanks generated way less threat than today. That's a simple fact.
And it was common to wipe because someone critted too early and dps always had to be careful.
When we killed Kael in TBC we "borrowed" a tank (their MT) from a hardcore raid guild (actually the top guild of our server - our own MT had an accident and Kael required lots of tanks). He was decked in epics and still did the DPS have to watch the threat meters. Ask maybe a good rogue about how often they died because of crits

And during Vanilla was it especially during the lower tiers common to wait quite some time before starting to heal / dps. You really seem to forget that loot was not this available back then.
During whole Vanilla did not a single Hunter T1 leg drop for our guild for example and we only got 2 legendaries.

But yes, ofc, if you have been in a hardcore raiding guild with all people in quite equal gear, then threat was not as much of an issue as for the normal raider. And ofc was threat not an issue if you were dragged through MC by a guild that had it on farm. But I'm talking here about the average progressing guild and their everyday life.

Threat was never an issue, giving tank 5-10 seconds for 3 sunders was plenty time to get constant top threat on basically all but dragon bosses, if the tank wasnt completely retarded. and for dragon bosses, there was KTM. And even in the occasion of a screwup, all it took was for the overaggroing dude to turn the boss away from raid and let the tank get aggro back, because most early bosses werent hitting that hard and you could offtank them as >=leather wearer for extended periods of time.

[gamingmuscle]

... and have dumbed down alot of "complex" classes to be relatively simple.

In what way? Every class I have played is more complex now then in BC/Vanilla days. There are more abilities, more cd to manage, more rng effects to look out for etc. Everyone has more things to do to get the job done.

[Twoflower]

Complex ? Maybe.

But it still boils down to "dont stand in the graphics effect on the ground". The only time this got more difficult was at the beginning of Cata when they introduced beneficial aoe effects on the ground and now you actually gotta know wether you have to move into or out of the AoE effect. Apart from that it's dps and dont stand in the fire. Ok, ok, you gotta pick carefully which target you dps, but you can hardly call that complex.

[Gorthan]

I've raided since vanilla and i can tell that now the game is more complex and difficult. At MC we had a lot of person watching tv while playing.

Also consider that if it's true that back then bosses had 2-3 mechanics, missing one of them was a certain wipe. Today we have a lot more space for error.

[gamingmuscle]

Threat was never an issue, giving tank 5-10 seconds for 3 sunders was plenty time to get constant top threat on basically all but dragon bosses, if the tank wasnt completely retarded. and for dragon bosses, there was KTM. And even in the occasion of a screwup, all it took was for the overaggroing dude to turn the boss away from raid and let the tank get aggro back, because most early bosses werent hitting that hard and you could offtank them as >=leather wearer for extended periods of time.

LOL...if only a 5-10 second lead was truely adequate. AS a freaking boomie in vanilla I could and did occasionally pull threat if I wasn't careful...and boomie wasn't even a very viable spec back then. Took a lot of farming to get the consumables to manage the mana issues.

You could offtank it as leather if you were a rogue with evasion up LOL.

[Deleted]

I find the autistic part of the title to be kind of needless and offensive, I mean why even put that.
The whole post had nothing to do with the post... Just listing mechanics of a fight with no opinion or explanation as to why it's complicated, only attempting to make it look that way by throwing a wall of text at us.
I'm sure if I watched a guide on Youtube they could teach me the fight in a comprehensive manner within a few views and attempts of my own to get a feel for the fight.

This isn't an answer to the post, rather the title, but no raiding is not too complicated (or autistic for whatever derogatory reason you used that word).

[jearle]

The simple explanation is the game has been out for a long time and has had tons of raids in that time. Players have seen it all so to speak and throwing something incredibly new at them is not an easy task.

So instead of something new, sometimes they take alot of old mechanics and throw them at you in one boss, with a slight twist.

The number of mechanics has been increasing over time, but player skill (to deal with boss mechanics) has increased as well.
It is hard for them to design fights without this happening. I think it makes the bosses more convoluted and not necessary more complex.

[Deleted]

I find the autistic part of the title to be kind of needless and offensive, I mean why even put that.
The whole post had nothing to do with the post... Just listing mechanics of a fight with no opinion or explanation as to why it's complicated, only attempting to make it look that way by throwing a wall of text at us.
I'm sure if I watched a guide on Youtube they could teach me the fight in a comprehensive manner within a few views and attempts of my own to get a feel for the fight.

This isn't an answer to the post, rather the title, but no raiding is not too complicated (or autistic for whatever derogatory reason you used that word).

The use of the word autistic does not refer to the disorder autism in this case. It is a completely valid word describing something that can be considered repetitive/restricted or sterotyped patterns/behaviour and/or things that lack social interaction and communication.

[mitbrandir]

Raiding isnt complicated at all, most of the time. its just understanding it, which seems to be a problem for quite some people,