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  1. #181
    Herald of the Titans T Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tekkommo View Post
    Yeah, simple fight, but if you didn't have a certain level of DPS you weren't gonna make it. If I remember correctly your raid needed to be decked out in BT gear, having some shit dps'ers in your raid didn't make it any easier.
    That or just have 5 shamans in your raid and give your rogue / Warrior group round the clock Bloodlust as you never got the debuff.

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Tsuna View Post
    Wall of text crits for TONS OF DAMAGE!
    The inner Phreak is strong with this one.

    v1.0 Brutallus was a good DPS check. Required a little over 29k raid DPS over 6 minutes (if I remember correctly).

    Without multiple sets of Warglaives, it required DPS groups to have Drum rotations and 4 DPS pots (I remember bringing 60+ destro pots per raid) for progression kills.

    With a couple weeks worth of Kalec through Felmyst kills, it became much easier, with Locks and Rogues carrying doing 2.2k+ DPS.

    Even in its simplicity, I really enjoyed the fight. I still remember our first kill...7 people alive with everyone spreading out as far as possible with dots ticking as he ran around one shotting everyone. Doesn't touch the pre-nerf M'uru kill, but still fun.
    Last edited by Toxigen; 2013-09-27 at 01:26 PM.

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  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenixdown View Post
    Actually, people should have, and that was proven in Wrath of the Lich King. Same mechanics, same true difficulty, just more playing experience and no more "spirit on everyone's gear" itemization. Tell me, how hard was Naxx in Wrath again? I wonder...

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  4. #184
    Scarab Lord Anjerith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluttershy View Post
    Literally every boss up to the end of BC had 1-3 mechanics at most (except for sunwell), most vanilla bosses only did 1-2 things at most.

    For pandaria you have a dungeon book with 10 mechanics just so people can keep up, the average mid-level pandarian guild can easily kill kael'thas and Vashj in 2 weeks tops if you could revert time back again.
    Please note that while boss mechanics have become more complex, so has character power. This includes the removal of resistance, creation of diminished returns, implementation of all classes for both factions and the homogenization which makes it viable to bring any class to a raid - rather than 3 or 4, oh and the maassive stamina buff in Cata. AND, don't forget we had thottbot and allakhazam back then. That was it. We didn't have wowhead or tankspot or icyveins or anything like that. We did have kill videos, but it was like "Sometimes this boss does this... not sure why.. but watch out for it.".

    While the older content seems easier from a list of abilities, and while it is true that it is much easier to deal with when you look at it from the perspective of todays player characters, the strict limitations imposed on players back then made that content just as hard.
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Gold and the 'need' for it in-game is easily one of the most overblown mindsets in this community.

  5. #185
    i think they should just break DBM and mods like that. You should play the game yourself not have some fancy addon do it all for you. Will make raiding more fun again.

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Dabrix32 View Post
    i think they should just break DBM and mods like that. You should play the game yourself not have some fancy addon do it all for you. Will make raiding more fun again.
    dude, CTRA was THE vanilla raid addon and Vendetta has been here since the end of vanilla, too. People were using them to whisp geddon/vael bombed people etc for ages. People were just horribly bad at the time, even after months of MC farm, some still couldnt comprehend simple stuff like "run away from the raid, now!" even when they had 10 seconds to do it. People are failing less on way faster paced mechanics now and half the time its because they want to push better dps rather than being genuinely terrible.

  7. #187
    The increase in raid complexity has stemmed from players getting better, having more information, having the game whittled down to a very granular science. This is part of the reason that much more movement has been incorporated into fights (and mobility added to so many classes), because from a simple numbers / beat the enrage timer perspective, there's very little room for anything interesting. Gear / dps checks like Patchwerk aren't going to be seen again.

    Movement and personal responsibility down to a man is where raiding has been headed, and will likely continue. Otherwise, encounters will simply be steamrolled in no time, unless something is done about add-ons, and the amount of information a player is given about things during a fight.

    If I had one complaint about raids now, it's the sheer volume of graphical shit flying around, mainly on floors.
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  8. #188
    The time period I raided in was/is harder. This thread in a nutshell.
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Aymee/advanced

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  9. #189
    Herald of the Titans Bigbazz's Avatar
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    In the old days it was more about dps/healing output + just a few mechanics. Thing is, the dps/healing requirements would be so high previously that those couple of mechanics were enough to make the fights very difficult.

    The main reason "oh shit fire" mechanics are more difficult in MOP is because of all the flashy spell animations. Before I came back to this patch I was playing a WOTLK private server. My first reaction in TOT was "jesus fucking christ I can't see anything" With all the crazy flashy class spell animations combined with the flashy boss animations it really is overwhelmingly difficult to try to see what the fuck is going on after coming from WOTLK where you can always see everything.

    I've started to adjust but had to install "GTFO" addon because the reality is there are so many spell animations going around that you can't hope to spot them all, when you have many different versions of class spells that put an effect on the ground, you can't see through 6 different ground spells if one of them is "bad".

    If you could disable class spell animations, 25man raiding on a fair few bosses would probably become a lot easier.
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  10. #190
    I don't think fights are that much more complicated now than they were back then. The difference is now most players are more skilled and have access to more information. I also think raids and raiding in general is more accessible now then say in BC. Half the battle in BC was just getting geared/attuned.

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarevokcz View Post
    People are failing less on way faster paced mechanics now and half the time its because they want to push better dps rather than being genuinely terrible.
    People are failing just as much now as they were back in classic. You not only had people dying to Durumu's pre-nerf maze, but even with months of experience you had a huge amount of players somehow dying to the post-nerf version as well.

    There hasn't anything been added to WoW in the past 7 years that introduced a brand new type of skill set to gamers. Heck, if you had the ability to deal with arcades back in the 80s, you have all the prerequisites required to deal with fast paced mechanics in WoW today. It's all about situational awareness, reaction times, split second decision making and general understanding of both your class, and your raid's class setup in general.

    Gamers haven't been getting any better over the years, if that's what you believe. I think you might not realize just how brutal gaming mechanics were back in the 80s and 90s.

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by Akylios View Post
    People are failing just as much now as they were back in classic. You not only had people dying to Durumu's pre-nerf maze, but even with months of experience you had a huge amount of players somehow dying to the post-nerf version as well.

    There hasn't anything been added to WoW in the past 7 years that introduced a brand new type of skill set to gamers. Heck, if you had the ability to deal with arcades back in the 80s, you have all the prerequisites required to deal with fast paced mechanics in WoW today. It's all about situational awareness, reaction times, split second decision making and general understanding of both your class, and your raid's class setup in general.

    Gamers haven't been getting any better over the years, if that's what you believe. I think you might not realize just how brutal gaming mechanics were back in the 80s and 90s.
    Plenty has been added to WoW itself over the years. Being a keyboard turner and raiding now is nearly an impossibility, whereas that wasn't always the case. And while arcade games were more unforgiving by their nature, there wasn't nearly as much to focus on on the screen, nor was there the same level of attack management. Or 9/24 other people to cooperate with. There might be a twitch element to associate WoW with older arcade games, but little else.
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  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Plenty has been added to WoW itself over the years. Being a keyboard turner and raiding now is nearly an impossibility, whereas that wasn't always the case. And while arcade games were more unforgiving by their nature, there wasn't nearly as much to focus on on the screen, nor was there the same level of attack management. Or 9/24 other people to cooperate with. There might be a twitch element to associate WoW with older arcade games, but little else.
    I simply said WoW hasn't added anything that increased upon the skillset required by gamers in general. As far as keyboard turning goes, it was as silly back in the late 90s as it is today. Keyboard turners were as easy to spot in Classic as they were in Quake and Counter-Strike. Even my semi-hardcore guild forced people to use a mouse, or we'd drop them.

    As far as focus on the screen goes, most bullet hell games (they were popular back in the 80s and 90s) had plenty of things to focus on on the screen. They required you to think multiple steps ahead of time to maximize not only your damage avoidance, but also your damage output. They generally also required you to completely learn the 'encounters' you were up against to win.

    As far as teamplay goes, you needed more team coordination in games such as Quake and Counter-Strike than you do in World of Warcraft. You may have more players in a raiding group, but your opponents were much more dynamic in the two shooters. Both games also forced very high situational awareness, reaction times and split second decision making upon you. Quake in particular required you to be very good at avoiding fast paced projectiles from multiple sources at once.

    Gaming honestly hasn't changed that much in the past 20 years. The graphics may be better, but as a 40 year old gamer, the set of skills I picked up in the 80s and 90s continues to serve me very well even today. I haven't had to learn anything new since I was a teenager, as all I ever have to do is adapt my old-timer knowledge to new scenarios.

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by Vixene View Post
    and the fact that tanks generally get the easiest time in the game, no need to worry about threat, just your rotation and any adds popping up, oh and hitting taunt buttons every few stacks. In normal mode, use of cooldowns is mute because the mode is extremely easy anyway. Heroics, you know from normal which to pop cooldowns on. Not to "insult" tanks, but yeah, their job is very comfortable in the game, especially since vengence. I think, the only real "difficult" tank fight is Garrosh really.

    DPS/Healers have much less health and usually much more to look out for.

    Usually, when you put a tank into a DPS position (off-spec, alt), they tend to die...oops!
    i was mainly coming from my perspective as raiding mage. and tanks are mainly taking the job of raid leader so there's that added difficulty.
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  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Akylios View Post
    People are failing just as much now as they were back in classic. You not only had people dying to Durumu's pre-nerf maze, but even with months of experience you had a huge amount of players somehow dying to the post-nerf version as well.
    the post nerf version is actually pretty stressful at the end if you run the inner circle and slight lag at the wrong moment will kill you, that said, rarely any actual raider (normal+) ever died to the maze. Of course on LFR its not the maze that kills most people, its the lazer that kills all the afkers.


    Gamers haven't been getting any better over the years, if that's what you believe. I think you might not realize just how brutal gaming mechanics were back in the 80s and 90s.
    2d twitch games with 99% predetermined patters have "brutal gaming mechanics" now? the brutal thing about those games was pretty much the no option to save, otherwise it was just trial and error, sometimes to the point of frustration, until you learned the pattern . Try that with 25 people, 3D environment, latency fluctuations and decent level of randomness and tell me with a straight face WoW raiding is easier than single player arcade from the dawn of PC games

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Akylios View Post
    As far as teamplay goes, you needed more team coordination in games such as Quake and Counter-Strike than you do in World of Warcraft. You may have more players in a raiding group, but your opponents were much more dynamic in the two shooters. Both games also forced very high situational awareness, reaction times and split second decision making upon you. Quake in particular required you to be very good at avoiding fast paced projectiles from multiple sources at once.
    And WoW doesnt have that? Ill give you, that WoW doesnt need precise hand-eye coordination, but everything else is in WoW raiding too.

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarevokcz View Post
    that said, rarely any actual raider (normal+) ever died to the maze.
    If I assume the Twitch streams I watched gave me an unbiased view of the general gaming skills of the raiding community, then the above statement is sadly not true. I'd seek out Durumu streams just to see how well guilds did on the maze. Plenty of HC players were dying even to the post-nerf maze. It's why I brought it up in the first place. It's just an example of a mechanic that requires a certain set of skills to deal with, and it just so happens that this exact same set of skills was also required to beat arcade games that pre-date Pandaria by decades.

    I'm almost 40 years old now, with a busy life and almost two decades since the peak of my 'gaming career', yet the pre-nerf version of the maze was very straight forward for me. This is not because I'm an awesome gamer, but simply because I had long since learned to deal with similar mechanics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarevokcz View Post
    Try that with 25 people, 3D environment, latency fluctuations and decent level of randomness and tell me with a straight face WoW raiding is easier than single player arcade from the dawn of PC games
    To me the mechanics were quite brutal by today's standards. What I was mostly pointing out though was the fact that these old games checked on many of the same skills as raiders are checked on today. Back then you had to both learn the encounter mechanics, as well as have the ability to deal with them. For instance, simply knowing how a bullet hell game is going to progress is of no use if you don't have the reaction times, hand-eye coordination and focus to deal with it.

    Obviously arcade games generally had no teamplay associated with them, which is why I brought up Counter-Strike and Quake in another post. Even though you didn't have 25 man teams in those two shooters, the more dynamic nature of your opponents required an incredibly high level of team play to become any good at a competitive level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarevokcz View Post
    And WoW doesnt have that? Ill give you, that WoW doesnt need precise hand-eye coordination, but everything else is in WoW raiding too.
    But that's exactly what I've been arguing here. The set of skills required to be a good raider aren't new to the world of gaming. Anyone who started gaming back in the 80s or 90s should have picked them all up (if only piece by piece) along the way. It's just that in this thread it seems like many posters think of gamers back in the mid 00s as complete baboons. In reality good gamers back in classic would in most cases also be good gamers today.

  17. #197
    Pit Lord Odina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vixene View Post
    and the fact that tanks generally get the easiest time in the game, no need to worry about threat, just your rotation and any adds popping up, oh and hitting taunt buttons every few stacks. In normal mode, use of cooldowns is mute because the mode is extremely easy anyway. Heroics, you know from normal which to pop cooldowns on. Not to "insult" tanks, but yeah, their job is very comfortable in the game, especially since vengence. I think, the only real "difficult" tank fight is Garrosh really.

    DPS/Healers have much less health and usually much more to look out for.

    Usually, when you put a tank into a DPS position (off-spec, alt), they tend to die...oops!
    Tanks have it easy now and just tunel dps in normal mode? Really now?

    How in the hell did I manage to use all these damage spells:
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/0...6#tab-dmgspell

    Please tell me how I was just taunting and managed to use these many buffs... note this is just buffs and debuffs I cast not the buffs and debuffs I recieved :
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/0...tab-auras-cast


    Now lets look at DPS shall we... #1 ranked dps for that same fight is a shadow priest
    DMG spells
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...1#tab-dmgspell
    Buffs / Debuffs cast:
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...tab-auras-cast


    Now please explain to me how tanks hardly do anything because threat isnt an issue these days and you don't have to use CD's for normal modes. Playing a tank at a crap level is easy but if you play it well with active mitigation and use the tools at your disposal properly then you got allot to look out for and allot to micro manage!

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by Odina View Post
    Tanks have it easy now and just tunel dps in normal mode? Really now?
    Tanking did become pretty damn easy in 10 man now in T16 though. It was siginificantly harder and more stressful in T14 and T15.
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  19. #199
    Pit Lord Odina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Tanking did become pretty damn easy in 10 man now in T16 though. It was siginificantly harder and more stressful in T14 and T15.
    I'd agree on one thing some fights overall will seem a lot easyer since were not bop 1 tanking it thus many of the fights the duty is spread over the 2 tanks rather than all on one to do the job. Other than that seems about the same so far so I would assume pallie tanks (tanks with a pallie in raid in general) feel it a bit more.

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by Anjerith View Post
    don't forget we had thottbot and allakhazam back then. That was it. We didn't have wowhead or tankspot or icyveins or anything like that. We did have kill videos, but it was like "Sometimes this boss does this... not sure why.. but watch out for it.".
    While the older content seems easier from a list of abilities, and while it is true that it is much easier to deal with when you look at it from the perspective of todays player characters, the strict limitations imposed on players back then made that content just as hard.
    When I started, in TBC, Wowhead was already much better than thottbot. Also there were guides for all bosses. Elitist Jerks was much bigger back then and had lot of theorycraft(much more than now).

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