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  1. #221
    The problem I have with gear check fights is they seem to go hand in hand with lets stack 5 warlocks and 5 mages (although that does still happen to a degree today but mostly only for the best of the best guilds). If a lot more fights were patchwerk style where certain classes were significantly ahead on damage then you can almost guarantee class stacking.

  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by Akylios View Post
    Just out of curiosity, do you believe gamers back in the mid 00s would have a hard time picking up modern day rotations? I can only speak for myself when I say rotations became largely automatic to me almost instantly. Even on my guardian druid, who had more of a priority queue than a rotation. You're not the first person I've seen mention rotations in this context, yet I can't imagine the average gamer having a hard time becoming good at button rotations.
    It depends on what level you're playing at. Meeting high dps thresholds in current tiers requires paying alot of attention for MOST specs. Nearly impossible without add-ons for alot. Pumping out maximum damage for your ilvl on heroic content the second week of content release is something less than 5% of the entire raiding population can do (probably lower). That's ontop of boss mechanics.

    Rotations are more reactive today. Back then it was, hit your buttons in a certain order. Now it's hit your buttons while reacting to procs and buffs and attempt to anticipate when those buffs may come back up ontop of watching a resource that needs to be lined up with cooldowns (and potentially with buffs). The skill cap is generally higher in dps rotations today. It isn't automatic because your procs aren't automatic and what you press depends on that. This is why you see such a drastic dps difference between the people ranking top 20ish in a given spec and the rest even though the ilvl difference is often minimal. Part of it is luck as well, of course. Anyone can do decently today even if they don't fully understand their spec rotation but have a general idea the basics and buttons to push. They won't cut it in a heroic progression guild, but they can kill normals. Only exception are certain specs that are unforgiving. (shadow priest, affliction lock, fire mage, unholy dk and couple others etc).

    I would say your average player back then would have had a hard time picking it up, yes. Just like they do today. Good players would have adapted. Rotations back then just consisted of pushing 2-4 buttons in a specific order and that's it. Less for some others.

    You mention Guardian druid which is a priority queue. Priority queue is much easier than a reactive rotation (lower skill cap). Tanking rotations, in general, are much simpler than dps.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by D3athsting View Post
    Bosses weren't as hard as they are now but on the other hand classes were very weak, much weaker from a defensive pov, e.g. rogues didn't have cos and feint didn't reduce aoe dmg, mages coul get ice block by going deep into frost tree, shield wall was very strong but had 30 min cd, palas sucked at everything but healing and dispelling, many bosses an trash were immune to some schools of magic (fire mage on ragnaros? gg) and many required a specific resistance gear on tanks (or all raid members) to avoid getting blown up, there was no mass ress and trash had shorter repop time, all of this made raiding not really more difficult, but it made it more tedious for sure.

    With that said, it was impossible back in vanilla even for a hardcore guild to clear all the content in a couple of days.
    That's what people get confused. They think more days required to kill a boss makes it harder. Back in Vanilla and BC, Blizzard added artificial gates to slow down progression raiders. These are things like having to get keys for your entire 40 man raid, broken bosses that are impossible to kill, and having to farm resist gear/specific items for the entire raid.

    Came from the old school EQ days where Sony used these same tactics to slow down the best guilds. At some point around Wrath - Blizzard got smarter and started adding harder group mechanics and different difficulty modes to fix it. Instead of cockblocking the best guilds with stupid gating to slow them down. That way, they didn't have to overtune content and make it impossible for your average raider.

    The world first race has just become so intense that the very top guilds simply put in extreme hours/pulls to get ahead since noone is blocked by artificial gating from blizzard.
    Last edited by Tstr88; 2013-10-01 at 09:06 AM.

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by Tstr88 View Post
    I would say your average player back then would have had a hard time picking it up, yes. Just like they do today. Good players would have adapted. Rotations back then just consisted of pushing 2-4 buttons in a specific order and that's it. Less for some others.
    This I agree with.

    Just like back in classic, I think today the average player has very little interest in maximizing their performance in a raiding environment. As an old-school gamer, picking up rotations was very easy for me, yet it was still something I had to put a lot of effort into mastering. I spent hours this expansion just beating on training dummies, and I put a lot of effort into maximizing my DPS on every encounter, which wound up earning me multiple top 20-100 Guardian druid spots on WoL. (I guess none of my records remains, seeing as I stopped playing back in June, when gear levels were much lower across the board)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tstr88 View Post
    You mention Guardian druid which is a priority queue. Priority queue is much easier than a reactive rotation (lower skill cap). Tanking rotations, in general, are much simpler than dps.
    The Guardian DPS rotation may have been easy, but it still kept you on your toes.

    The guardian priority queue depends a lot on debuffs and CD resets. Some of their abilities had a CHANCE of resetting the CD on their highest priority skills. When this happened, a guardian had to decide whether or not to actually use this high priority attack, or whether it was more important to refresh one of their debuffs or dots. So even just looking at their DPS rotation, in reality it was just a long line of split second decisions. The worse your decision making, the more your overall DPS will suffer.

    You then have to add your tanking ability rotation on top of the above. For a guardian druid your active mitigation was not a part of your damage rotation. Your DPS rotation just earned you the rage required to pull off your active mitigation, but when and where to use your tanking abilities was a completely separate set of decisions to think about. Especially considering the fact that a guardian druid's most important active mitigation abilities aren't even on the global cooldown, so you'll constantly be activating them at the same time as you're pulling off your DPS rotation.

    Now don't get me wrong, I don't think the above is very complicated. It's something you get very good at very fast, so long as you put some effort in. But yeah, the only other rotation I can compare the above to is the T14 feral rotation, which was about as hard/easy to pull off. A lot of druids complained about the feral rotation being very hard though, for what it's worth.

  4. #224
    Klaxxi does look complicated on paper (can only speak for normal version) and i thought we would spend some time learning the fight.
    It actually wasnt that complicated. We killed it on the 5th pull.

    You could say the same about, for example, Lei Shen. Tons of abilities but when you actually do the fight they are active at certain points of the fight (bit different on heroic). You can learn the conduits step by step if you need and the actual mechanics are easy enough to understand after seeing them one time.

    The dungeon journal makes things look more complicated than it is. Personally i dont look too much at it, i am better at learning by doing :-P

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by Akylios View Post
    Just out of curiosity, do you believe gamers back in the mid 00s would have a hard time picking up modern day rotations?
    This is laughable.

    The average gamer...say from '95 to '05, was of a much higher caliber.

    Why? WoW opened up the floodgates to the mouthbreathing masses. Before, especially in the MMO community, players were a rather tight-knit group that were not endowed with this entitlement bullshit. If something was hard, ridiculously time-consuming, or "unfair"...we didn't hop on forums to bitch about it. We did what was necessary to "beat the content."

    Those that couldn't hack it had two options: seek help from others and be willing to put in the effort to improve, or quit/wait for something else to do. That's the way the genre used to work, and it was better (those that disagree simply didn't experience it).

    Strong players in EQ, Asheron's Call, DAOC, etc etc would have had NO problem learning today's playstyle/requirements to complete heroic content.

    I miss the golden decade of MMOs.
    Last edited by Toxigen; 2013-10-01 at 02:11 PM.

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  6. #226
    Epic! Felarion's Avatar
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    killed paragons yesterday on normal for the 1st time, it was one shoot (for me, my guild kill them for second time), and tbh we don't fuckin know what's happend. Just kill this, next this...bloods inc slow them dont let em rich the boss. Spread away with beam, stand on shoot line. rest of abilities don't matter really.

    Now if i bring back memories from brutallus...omg that fuckin positioning,run away with burn spread it accidentally....Brutallus was way harder imo, and dat ninja pulls. I remeber we actually use some kind of graphic addon to let raid leader set up people (we used this for portal groups on kalec and brutallus), can't remeber the exact addon name.

  7. #227
    Interesting thread...as far as Vashj and Kael are concerned, I think some people are forgetting (that is, if they actually did those bosses when they were current in the first place) how easy it was to die on those fights. People didn't have massive health pools, and there weren't the abundance of absorbs that exist for many classes today. As in many fights in Vanilla, the mechanics look a little simpler, but there was a small tolerance for errors.

    As others have noted, most classes have many more ways of handling problems now than they did in Vanilla and BC. My guild did Vashj and Kael when they were still required for attunement to BT. I remember it took us about three weeks of serious attempts on Vashj, and we actually teamed with a more hardcore raid guild on our server to get Kael the first time. Both of those fights required a fair amount of organization -- for Vashj, we had to set up group positions and roles on the forum before the raid, and it became manageable.

    As someone who did mostly MC, AQ20, ZG, and some BWL in Vanilla, and who has cleared pretty much everything hard mode/ Heroic from BC on, my viewpoint is that bosses in Vanilla and BC were just less forgiving, although generally less complex. And that is partly because gear and talents were crappy compared to now.

  8. #228
    @Kingradio

    I think thats a pretty good way to put it. Not as complex fights back in the day, but less forgiving.
    I do think that you can compare Kael'Thas with todays fights in terms of complexity. There was alot going on in that fight.

  9. #229
    Honestly I find reading the encounter descriptions to be daunting and horrifying and I wonder into these raids thinking I am going to absolutely not know what to do, what this ability looks like, and what not.

    But during the actual encounters? It's a lot less scary/complex. I really thought leading my guild through Sha of Pride was going to be a nightmare, but in reality it was easy.

    Raids in Vanilla/BC mainly had few mechanics but those mechanics HURT. Nowadays it's more the combination of things that build up to kill you. Obviously we still see some moves that really put the hurt on but seem to be balanced around a raid not doing it's job.

    I wouldn't say it's too complex yet but it's definitely more involved!
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  10. #230
    Imo, from the hardcore perspective the fights have become more complex and blizzard is always trying to tune it perfectly for the hardcore raiders. Last man standing when boss dies and u know that your group has used every single cd, to get there. Overall its more complex with more elements than before and more "hard" stages during a boss fight.

    Overall most raiding have become more complex to suit the general players, imo most players is decent and with the certain amount of knowledgement about your race and group dynamic the game is pretty simple.

    But yeah as some ppl mentioned, checking the Dungeon Journal is sometimes missleading, there is hundreds of mechanics in there but rarely more than 5-10 rly important ones to keep in mind during an encounter. Some fights, perhaps even less than 5.
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  11. #231
    In vanilla and BC the hard part was getting enough gear for 40/25 people (especially resistance gear).
    Now that is the easy part, get even half LFR and Flex gear and you are ready for Normal.
    It's a lot better this way, I prefer skill over grinding.

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  12. #232
    imagine if they would make something like onyxia scale cloak a requirement for some bosses.. would be interesting to see the reaction :P

  13. #233
    The Lightbringer TEHPALLYTANK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fearin View Post
    imagine if they would make something like onyxia scale cloak a requirement for some bosses.. would be interesting to see the reaction :P
    They did add a boss like that. His name is Ordos.
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  14. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by TEHPALLYTANK View Post
    They did add a boss like that. His name is Ordos.
    Yup, because legendary chain started on 5.4 right?

    ACtually that same analogy could hold if ordos was the first boss on SoO heroic and legendary chain started on 5.4

  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by Toxigen View Post
    This is laughable.

    The average gamer...say from '95 to '05, was of a much higher caliber.

    Why? WoW opened up the floodgates to the mouthbreathing masses. Before, especially in the MMO community, players were a rather tight-knit group that were not endowed with this entitlement bullshit. If something was hard, ridiculously time-consuming, or "unfair"...we didn't hop on forums to bitch about it. We did what was necessary to "beat the content."

    Those that couldn't hack it had two options: seek help from others and be willing to put in the effort to improve, or quit/wait for something else to do. That's the way the genre used to work, and it was better (those that disagree simply didn't experience it).

    Strong players in EQ, Asheron's Call, DAOC, etc etc would have had NO problem learning today's playstyle/requirements to complete heroic content.

    I miss the golden decade of MMOs.
    I like how you state your opinion like it's a fact. I also like how wrong your opinion is.

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by Brakthir View Post
    I like how you state your opinion like it's a fact. I also like how wrong your opinion is.
    I don't know if I could agree either, i know eq players who have said wow is to complex to get into. A lot of it could just be " you know what you know" but I don't think people were particularly better then. In general video games are much faster paced than old games, go back and play the original golden eye if your a fan of fps. You will laugh how slow the world moves.

  17. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by Txiv View Post
    I don't know if I could agree either, i know eq players who have said wow is to complex to get into. A lot of it could just be " you know what you know" but I don't think people were particularly better then.
    Well, Dark Age of Camelot was probably a better example than Everquest. You had a large amount of skills to use in DAOC, and your opponents were groups of humans. Most group fights were over in just a few seconds, yet in those few seconds you had to make an insane amount of split second decisions to not only bring down the enemy group, but to make sure your own group survived. You'd be keeping an eye out for dispels, damage spells, crowd control effects, heals, big cooldowns, priority targets and so on and so forth. You'd even have to keep an eye out for random stealthers who'd pop up out of nowhere, and make damn sure you weren't engaging in a group fight near an enemy zerg.

    Dark Age of Camelot was a very, very high skill PvP MMORPG, and a very good one at that. Sadly Mythic slowly destroyed the game, in their attempt to make it more and more like Everquest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Txiv View Post
    In general video games are much faster paced than old games, go back and play the original golden eye if your a fan of fps. You will laugh how slow the world moves.
    As far as faster paced FPS games goes, I recommend you check out Quake, Quake 3 or even Painkiller. They're much faster paced than anything I've found these days. I consider myself an FPS player above anything else (as far as gaming goes), yet every decent FPS game I've tried since Quake 3 makes me feel like my characters are walking around with lead weights tied to their boots.
    Last edited by Akylios; 2013-10-03 at 04:17 PM.

  18. #238
    Brutallus was a dps test Boss not complicated not even back then ;-) you could compare patchy with brutallus.
    Just compare it to the freeloot first boss in soo that boss is the easiest boss ever in wow history with the lootship, no its easier than lootship.

  19. #239
    No boss is easier than lucifron.

  20. #240
    Warchief Redpanda's Avatar
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    my take on it. It has to get more complex or it gets boring. HAving the same mechanics on more than one fight will make things getting old really fast got to mix it up. Right now for the fights I have done they are nice departures and its only going to bet better.
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    People doing below 200k dps? Ain't nobody got time for that.
    Quote Originally Posted by smartazjb0y View Post
    Why? Why should content be gated behind skill?
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