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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Fluttershy View Post
    No boss is easier than lucifron.
    Rage winterchill.


    The problem with raiding is hardmodes. Three difficulties: LFR FLEX and Normal, normal being tuned a bit harder than normal but easier than heroic. Great so when you kill a boss for the first time, it's now on farm. There is no harder mode to learn, that's the only incarnation you will kill. Loved it like that in Vanilla/BC/Early WLK.

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by Toxigen View Post
    This is laughable.

    The average gamer...say from '95 to '05, was of a much higher caliber.
    Not at all true. If E-Sports has given any indication, the quality of players consistently improves as time goes on. Old SC, Dota, Lol pros are no longer considered world class for example after only a few years ago being considered the best in the world.

    Why? WoW opened up the floodgates to the mouthbreathing masses.
    This is just a needless insult. All wow did was make a more accessible MMO that was marketed well and in particular to a younger generation. Wow wouldn't be the game it was/is if not for that. Where is Asheron's Call now? or Dark Age? 50k subs 5 years ago, I'm sure its since declined.

    Before, especially in the MMO community, players were a rather tight-knit group that were not endowed with this entitlement bullshit. If something was hard, ridiculously time-consuming, or "unfair"...we didn't hop on forums to bitch about it. We did what was necessary to "beat the content."
    This is in every way untrue. It's human nature to expect a sense of entitlement from doing things. The only exceptions were when we did thing for novelty purposes or for a sense of achievement (such as kerafyrm). Just like now. Some members of younger generations definitely seem to have a greater sense of entitlement, its not to say we never had it ourselves.

    And we did complain/bitch when things weren't fun. Hell, we had every right to do it then and every right to do it now. Opening the Gates to AQ was fun and gave a sense of achievement. But its not something Id EVER participate in again. If something doesn't feel fun, then game designers aren't doing their job because after all we have a choice regarding what MMOs we wish to play and if I feel bored or like I'm not having fun, then I may very well pick up final fantasy or EQ:Next when its released.

    Those that couldn't hack it had two options: seek help from others and be willing to put in the effort to improve, or quit/wait for something else to do. That's the way the genre used to work, and it was better (those that disagree simply didn't experience it).
    Better? The market lacked any real competition so thats how it worked. It wasn't better. The genre is better now because I as a player have choices. If I feel like what Im doing is boring or isn't fun, i can choose to play another game or do something else. Let me tell you something. Grinding isn't fun for me. It isnt fun for a lot of people. It's a very primitive concept/mechanic that most MMOs introduced as a way of lengthening play time without introducing real content, I used to work in the industry. Whilst I was never directly involved in the production of a game itself, grinding was a way of breaking up a game's unique content, take early RPGs like Final Fantasy. You would regularly have to bring your progression of the storyline to a halt to grind up your party because they were too weak to defeat a boss or survive several random encounters.

    Why has every single genre evolved to a point where grinding is integrated increasingly less? Because it's a poor way to inflate a user's playtime without real effort.

    Strong players in EQ, Asheron's Call, DAOC, etc etc would have had NO problem learning today's playstyle/requirements to complete heroic content.
    You couldn't be more wrong. I find it hard keeping up with heroic raiding to the point where I left my heroic raiding guild because I felt like too much of a burden.

    I miss the simplicity of Vanilla raiding, not because it was better, but because I felt less pressured. Remember Thaddius?

    My old guild forced us to all download BigWigs because it would tell us to go left/right. We seriously considered this fight really hard. By the time I came back during early wrath, this mechanic seemed much much easier.

    The game is MUCH harder nowadays. Much. Give your opinions I doubt you raided since vanilla and still raid today because everyone Ive spoken to who I know has, agrees with this sentiment.

    I miss the golden decade of MMOs.
    It's just nostalgia buddy.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Marsc92 View Post
    Not at all true. If E-Sports has given any indication, the quality of players consistently improves as time goes on. Old SC, Dota, Lol pros are no longer considered world class for example after only a few years ago being considered the best in the world.
    You cannot compare WoW to games such as Dota, LoL or SC in this context. To reach the top in those games you have to practice 10+ hours a day almost every day of the year. No raiding guild is even remotely close to showing such amount of dedication, and they honestly don't need to. The skill ceiling is much lower in World of Warcraft than say Starcraft. You don't need to play 10+ hours a day, every day of the year, just to stand a chance of competing with the best.

    So unlike the games you mentioned, there is little to indicate raiders need years to reach their skill caps in World of Warcraft. At least not those who have already been gaming for a decade or more. The much more dynamic nature of your opponents in SC, LoL and DOTA alone makes sure of that.



    Quote Originally Posted by Marsc92 View Post
    You couldn't be more wrong. I find it hard keeping up with heroic raiding to the point where I left my heroic raiding guild because I felt like too much of a burden.
    Everyone's different, Marsc92. Like you I started raiding back in Everquest. I'm someone who played multiple MMORPGs before I ever picked up World of Warcraft. So WoW was nothing new or special to me, it was just yet another MMORPG. I have no special feelings towards classic in general and I think it was a much worse game than WoW is today. So don't take me as some staunch defender of Classic as the best game ever.

    That being said, after picking World of Warcraft up for the first time in 6 years, I made easy work of most heroic modes. My guild was made up of almost nothing but old friends from classic, who hadn't raided at all since Naxxramas, yet we killed most normal mode encounters in less than 3 tries and most heroic mode encounters in less than a night trying. Some heroic mode encounters we killed in under 5 tries.

    But then again, most of us were old Quake players as well, so it's not like we used to be terrible gamers back in the day. That being said, we're all around 40 these days, so we're far from our glory days of gaming, but picking up today's raiding game came very easily to us. Most of what we had to learn, we learned right away on our first few brutal tries on normal mode Stone Guard, but as oddly as it may sound, simply bringing down normal mode Stone Guard was about all the learning curve we needed. That was only ~15 pulls worth of a learning curve. The rest of T14 normal mode we killed in 1-5 tries (with the exception of the gear check called Garalon). So yeah, we oneshot some of the bosses without even having any bossmod addons (we installed them for Heroic Modes).

    So as I say, everyone is different. Thankfully my small group of old farts managed to do well in MOP, before family obligations sort of forced us to disband again back in June. At that point we were at 7/13 HC TOT on only 3-5 hours of raiding each week. Not too bad, for such old farts!
    Last edited by Akylios; 2013-10-04 at 11:50 AM.

  4. #244
    You couldn't be more wrong. I find it hard keeping up with heroic raiding to the point where I left my heroic raiding guild because I felt like too much of a burden.

    I miss the simplicity of Vanilla raiding, not because it was better, but because I felt less pressured. Remember Thaddius?

    My old guild forced us to all download BigWigs because it would tell us to go left/right. We seriously considered this fight really hard. By the time I came back during early wrath, this mechanic seemed much much easier.

    The game is MUCH harder nowadays. Much. Give your opinions I doubt you raided since vanilla and still raid today because everyone Ive spoken to who I know has, agrees with this sentiment.
    One could argue mods have forced the difficulty to increase (but I blame hard modes). A lot of the difficulty in Vanilla was discovering and debugging boss mechanics (twin emps stuck in my mind for this, figuring out the tele and agro and whatnot).

    For thaddius I taped post it notes to my monitor, to remember which way is what polarity. Our lone aussie would sit way away using throw weapon due to latency

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by mcbubble View Post
    The fights aren't harder...there are just WAY more things to know about a fight.
    All fight mechanics are planned, and can be dealt with in predictable manners.
    That being said, the amount of knowledge a raider has to know for each boss is honestly getting a little out of hand.
    There are so many mechanics for each fight, that, in order to know every aspect of the fight requires a lot of studying.
    Look at some of the fights in the dungeon journal....there are some that are ~10 pages long!

    The journal is a terrible way to research fights, really. A vast amount of the mechanics can be dealt with by knowing a few things:

    1) Kill adds. I can't think of a fight where, if the boss summons adds, you ignore them. The adds always die. It might only be some of the raid that's tasked with doing this, but the adds die.

    2) Interrupt bad things. See the elite adds in Horridon for the best recent example, but in most cases if a mob is casting a spell you want to interrupt it. Again, details might vary - if you're a 10 person raid and short on interrupts you might choose to interrupt Spell A and let B go through, but...

    3) Stay/get out of bad things. Fire, axes, void zones... all bad. Move out of them or stay out of them. Do this even at the cost of interrupting a cast because while your performance dips when doing that your performance really sucks when you're dead.

    4) Do your role well. This is knowing your class well and having a good handle on its abilities coupled with some knowledge and experience of a fight. Healers should know when to toss out the aoe heal, when to focus on the tanks, etc. DPS should know their priorities and be able to use abilities when they're off CD. Tanks should know how and when to taunt, how to kite, etc. Again, some of this will take practice, but it's not HARD.

    Do that and you will be fine in 90% of fights. Yes, there are some fights with odd mechanics but those four points get you most of the way there on the vast majority of fights. Do those and you'll be fine in LFR and probably Flex. In heroic? Yeah ,you need to know more but at that point, you're a heroic raider and kind of cede the right to complain that raiding is hard or complex.

  6. #246
    Stood in the Fire Huckfealing's Avatar
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    The actual difficulty of raiding in wow has gone up, but only if you take amount of mechanics as the bar for difficulty. As someone else in this thread stated, many of mechanics now can almost be ignored and are just there for some flavor. A lot of words makes things look difficult, but a 500 page Manuel on how to spell the word "Umbrella" makes it look more difficult than it actually is.

    I personally think what has happened to raiding since the old days was difficulty migration. In Vanilla/BC the ability to play a class was the only true challenge. The mechanics where gross motor and easy to deal with, IF you knew how your class would need to react to every situation. And the class challenge was not this shit priority system every class has, which I have not been a fan of since day one. I really liked the rotations of wrath. Because what they allowed for was very difficult mechanics. I remember playing on any one of my classes I had a very simple rotation, but if you fucked it up, it was a stark dps loss. You had to muscle memory your way through situations, and flip on the fly on mechanics. But now we have priorities. And I for example played a DK through Wrath and up until now he has stayed current content, but the class itself has huge flaws within the priority system, much like other classes. First and foremost being Procs. Procs them selves inherently are a great thing, but in some classes cases, they are not.

    For example on my dk, there are times where I am resource flooded, and other times I'm literally not doing anything for 4-5 sec sometimes longer when I'm waiting for soul Reaper. enough runes for a couple attacks, almost full runic power, both procs, so I have to choose between the least dps lost. I can't feel good about it. Same with other classes I play. The point being I'm staring at resources almost the whole fight and not able to enjoy the aesthetics of any encounter. I honestly couldn't tell you what the areas look like for just about any boss from MOP. Everything is to focused on dealing with your own resources, My eye's are constantly switching between my Resource addon, and DBM. Very boring.
    Last edited by Huckfealing; 2013-10-04 at 10:48 PM.

  7. #247
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluttershy View Post
    No boss is easier than lucifron.
    Every boss in hyjal save Archimonde. Azgalor was especially a joke. I remember afking through my first attempt after receiving the mark and running to the tank spot. BRILLIANT BC RAIDING right there....

    Unquestionably raiding is more complex and that in and of itself is serving as a huge barrier to entry. Even just playing ones class is more complex as well.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-10-04 at 11:10 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tlaloc View Post
    In Vanilla/BC the ability to play a class was the only true challenge.
    I'm sorry but I just had to point this out as utterly hilarious. Think back to the class you played most in vanilla, how many buttons did you NEED in a raid. I needed two, shield wall and SUNDER ARMOR. That said the boss mechanics in Vanilla were also piss easy, the difficulty came from having FORTY people in the raid.

    I must pause here and honor the great and wonderful Baron Geddon, may his soul be forever respected in the memory of WoW players.

    Raid difficulties are fine, if you've done lfr and flex modes in siege you can clearly see the content established for all levels of the community. Things could use more adjustments sure, but it is moving in the right direction rather than the wrong one.

    As for Player skill, I don't think it's actually increasing or decreasing over time. The best players are always still the ones who play like the game is a job, that just makes sense. The only thing we see is a wide gap between the top and the bottom, but this is only because so many MORE gamers exist now than back in the 90s. The pros are still pros, the casual are still casual, and there will always be bads.
    Naftc, "Hunters are the cheapest class in game and when played right are more deadly than a train plowing through a field of bunnies covered in napalm"

  9. #249
    Bloodsail Admiral Annarion's Avatar
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    Why don't you compare Paragons of the Klaxxi to a different TBC fight? A TBC fight, where, maybe, Oh, I don't know. THERE'S MORE THAN ONE TARGET!?!?

    Compare it to High King Maulgar. HKM has two phases and a couple of abilities to watch out for. Krosh has 2 abilities to watch for. Olm the Summoner has a pet with it's own abilities, as well as two important raid mechanics. Kiggler the Crazed has two abilities to watch out for as well as 2 more damage abilities. Blind Eye heals the other raid targets with several abilities. HURRR RAIDING IS HARD NOW.

    Illidari Council? No? How about M'uru? Still no? You don't want to compare a Council fight that requires a high degree of control to another Council fight? You just want to compare it to a DPS check fight? Compare Brutallus to Patchwerk. Oh, they've got the exact same number of mechanics.

    I know I'm trolling, but Jesus, your post isn't even a post. You put a question in the title and then instead of making an argument you posted up two fight descriptions and said nothing.

  10. #250
    Stood in the Fire Huckfealing's Avatar
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    And I remember playing my rogue back in Vanilla/BC and being able to kill people naked just by out playing them. And in pve it wasnt that the classes where difficult, it's that having 40 people was difficult and each one knows what to do.

  11. #251
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    Healing was also one of the complicated things in vanilla, back when Mana ment something u'know.
    But yeah, to me normal modes already feel like the bosses of vanilla/TBC when it comes to all the shit you have to pay attention to, Heroic modes now are an awful lot harder than 'back in the day'. Quite frankly I get a bit tired these days, when I see that very soon my guild will start on Paragons and I get a wall of text critting me, I almost cba anymore.

  12. #252
    How else would they keep raid encounters fresh? They can't all be 3 mechanic fights.

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