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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Fluttershy View Post
    Compare attumen to stone guards.


    Really now.
    You have to realize that about 75% of that is just random raid damage, the fact that there are 9 bosses in the encounter means that there should be AT LEAST 9 different random throwaway "hits x player for y damage" or "hits all players for y damage" abilities. Some of those mechanics can be summed up as "you can't tank both Xaril and Kilruk" or the other pair. So basically the mechanic is bring 2 tanks. A few more are literally just "use your active mitigation" or bad things happen (parasites from Rikkal). Amber and Bloods are the same mechanic (burn the add before it heals the boss). These are all just examples. I would say Aim, the Catalysts, Mesmerize, Shield Bash/Vicious Assault, and the charge mechanic are the only real things that are actually important in this fight. Otherwise most of the abilities (including calculation, hurl amber, multishot, etc.) are just extra raid damage and almost irrelevant in terms of strategy on normal.

    Also, nice job comparing probably one of the most complex bosses in the game to one of the simplest ones. If you look at Immerseus, it's literally 3 mechanics (tank swap, swirl, kill/heal adds).

    More mechanics is almost always a more interesting and fun fight for me. Siegecrafter, Paragons, Garrosh, H Dark Animus, H Durumu, H Spirit Kings, and Ambershaper are some of my favorite fights in the game, and yes I have played since Vanilla (didn't raid until BC unfortunately).

    Edit: The post I quoted was the entire dungeon journal for Paragons. I snipped it.

  2. #22
    The Lightbringer TEHPALLYTANK's Avatar
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    Wall of text too scary! While somewhat troublesome to deal with when you lack preparation it is actually a fairly easy fight. Spend an hour wiping on it and you should have ironed out most of the mechanics and how to deal with them in addition to who deal with what, who takes what paragon power and such. The complexity is still pretty fun as the fight is a learning experience, not some boring numbers check. The worst part is actually getting in the habit of referring to the bosses, I end up reading the names of some and the paragon titles of the others when I should just be reading off titles to avoid confusion. The strategy is a very fun logic problem, I absolutely love the paragons fight.
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  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Fluttershy View Post
    I've spent 16 hours a week raiding progression early in BC, and in retrospect I don't really see why it was so hard.

    What exactly was hard about vashj that it took some guilds 3-5 months to kill her (aside from doing like 1k dps and the inability to use an item) while nihilum/whatevertheguildthatbrutforcedthebuggedencounter were using crafted 115 blue gear and epic tailoring/bs patterns?

    Was it seriously so hard to kill a green water elemental and throw a tainted core to someone without taking an eternity? The guild wiping so much on vashj would've probably wiped endlessly on a lootbag like ultraxion.
    in retrospective everything can seem easier. why? because you've learned the fight eventually. Just like me and my studies. When I look back now I can't believe I had problems with some things I've learned back when I started my studies. Does that mean those things are easier then the new things I'm still learning now? No it really doesn't. For one simple reason. I've studied those things I've known over and over untill I knew them through and through which nowadays makes them seem so easy looking back at it. while the new things I'm learning seem harder because I don't rly understand them yet. But I'm willing to bet once I get the hang of the new things. looking back on it I will think "How th hell did I ever have trouble with that in the first place?"

    long story short looking back on things does not give good comparison. What would give good comparison. Would be doing both heroic garrosh and kil'jeaden on the same night with the apropriate gear/level/etc. looking back will never work because you never remember things quite as they were.

  4. #24
    The Patient Jayp's Avatar
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    I wouldnt say raiding today was remotely complicated. At best it takes an average raider who doesnt have the IQ of a peanut to see an encounter once or twice to know exactly what his roll is during that fight. Bosses these days have a lot of abilities now but they are designed in such a way certain rolls can sometimes ignore them, or they dont effect them. As an example go back to ToT Jin'rokh, focused lightning will not target melee dps or tanks but will still appear on the ability list for everyone.

    Sure some fights can be highly complex, but imho that does not ramp up the difficulty, it instead makes for a fun fight which i think blizz are trying to do with raiding these days so its not a stand still and push your rotation thru.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    after just seeing results of morality bukkake on garrosh

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Dakara View Post
    Well... yes and no. Just getting into Naxx itself (the attunement) cost more time and/or gold than your average player could afford in those days, but also, with no catch up mechanics, apart from a late game Honor grind, most players spent all of Vanilla in blues. So even it were just a gear check, most players would still have been excluded.

    However, the gear checks in Vanilla were mostly for tanks. Itemization was crap, and it was much harder to brute force an encounter "later in the game" because it was impossible to outgear it with welfare gear.
    I'll give you the attunment but for the rest. if raiding was really but only an gearcheck most people should've been in full epics as with blues you could beat bosses in mc which would give you gear could enough to eventually beat all the bosses in BWL which would give you gear good enough to eventually beat all the bosses in AQ40 which would eventually give you gear good enough to beat all the bosses in Naxx40. that never happened though because the bosses were a bit more then just gearchecks.

    as for catch ups. there was an catch up at the end of vanilla wow with d2 sets

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dakara View Post
    Well... yes and no. Just getting into Naxx itself (the attunement) cost more time and/or gold than your average player could afford in those days, but also, with no catch up mechanics, apart from a late game Honor grind, most players spent all of Vanilla in blues. So even it were just a gear check, most players would still have been excluded.

    However, the gear checks in Vanilla were mostly for tanks. Itemization was crap, and it was much harder to brute force an encounter "later in the game" because it was impossible to outgear it with welfare gear.
    Too add onto this the encounters where tuned to gear that already dropped in the instance. Also the fact that there was a small minority of the people around then that raided at all. Naxx40 wasnt hard by todays standard. There was a few fights in there that required some coordination and a small amount of players actually knowing what was going on and the rest could be filled with DPS that tunneled the boss.

  7. #27
    The main reason things have gotten more complicated is purely because people LEARNED how to play MMORPGs in the meantime.

    I don't mean everyone, as obviously a lot of good WoW players have stopped playing ever since ; but back then a standard Tank & Spank with a simple aggro switch between MT1 & MT2 were considered a complex enough strategy.

    People didn't know how to form a proper raid besides "Two tanks, some healers, rest DPS", raiders didn't know how to spec/gear (heck I've cleaned half of Molten Core as shaman healing with a 31/20/0 (that's Elemental/Enhancement/Restoration) spec, and every druid asked to respec for Innervate was pissed for the week ).

    Now people are quite used to dealing with boss strat and understand them quickly.

    Just FYI, while we were in the France Top25 guild during AQ40, we still managed to kill Fankriss in a MONTH and a half, because we didn't want any spoil on the strat. Now you're considered dogshit if not in HC Mode the next week and at least 4/12 the week after...

    Complexity has nothing to do with how long it takes to described every inch of the fight by text.


    (Also, Brutallus was a poor choice as it was obviously just the cockblock of Sunwell... Take anything from Ragnaros, Chromaggus, C'Thun, Twins Emperor, M'uru, etc... you'll get wall of texts when trying to type the strategy)

  8. #28
    Dreadlord
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    Quote Originally Posted by label strew View Post
    I'll give you the attunment but for the rest. if raiding was really but only an gearcheck most people should've been in full epics as with blues you could beat bosses in mc which would give you gear could enough to eventually beat all the bosses in BWL which would give you gear good enough to eventually beat all the bosses in AQ40 which would eventually give you gear good enough to beat all the bosses in Naxx40. that never happened though because the bosses were a bit more then just gearchecks.

    as for catch ups. there was an catch up at the end of vanilla wow with d2 sets
    Getting full blues wasnt all sunshine and ponys either. You needed a small raid to grind the instances that dropped the good blues. I would say most people in vanilla never reached level cap or was still in green/blueish gear.

  9. #29
    long story short looking back on things does not give good comparison. What would give good comparison. Would be doing both heroic garrosh and kil'jeaden on the same night with the apropriate gear/level/etc. looking back will never work because you never remember things quite as they were.
    Let's reverse things a bit.

    Stone guards are now the first boss of karazhan in a huge hallway, tanks now have a 40 yard taunt to equalize things.

    Do you seriously think the vast majority of non-hardcore guilds at the time could even get past that? that was like putting shade of aran with tank swaps as your entry level boss. Stepping on mines, not doing fire links properly, standing in pools, not swapping properly would lead to wipes.

    Shade of aran was the toughest, yet all you had to do was DONT MOVE DURING FLAME WREATH, something people deemed too hard.

  10. #30
    why are you comparing a patchwork style fight to council fight..... very bad example

    malkrok and brutallus is something you should compare
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  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by label strew View Post
    I'll give you the attunment but for the rest. if raiding was really but only an gearcheck most people should've been in full epics as with blues you could beat bosses in mc which would give you gear could enough to eventually beat all the bosses in BWL which would give you gear good enough to eventually beat all the bosses in AQ40 which would eventually give you gear good enough to beat all the bosses in Naxx40. that never happened though because the bosses were a bit more then just gearchecks.

    as for catch ups. there was an catch up at the end of vanilla wow with d2 sets
    That was my point though. They weren't gear checks, apart from the Tanks, because you couldn't outgear them. Sure, it was a gear check if you were in greens, but the real issue was, you couldn't beat a new boss next week just because a few of your DPS got their trinkets this week. That's why it was hard, the gear was crap. So yes, blues got you into MC. Farming Fire Resist gear, farming crafting mats and having an entire guild funding the Main Tanks Dark Iron gear so he can tank Rag, let you finish MC.... and that's why hardly anyone got past the 5 mans because pugging was virtually non existent apart from a few bosses. You needed Geared Tanks, who were geared by an entire guild.

    As for D2 blues... really? That just gave people something to do who didn't raid. It was hardly a catch up. The real catch up was not long before TBC when they changed the PvP system and made Honor a currency. Within a week or so, everyone had epics.
    Last edited by Dakara; 2013-09-26 at 08:43 AM.

  12. #32
    Stood in the Fire Turin's Avatar
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    In all honesty, the fights look very complicated but are not actually complicated to execute (note that I'm talking about complexity, not difficulty). There are a couple fights though that end up being rather complicated, but they are by far in the minority.
    Ofcourse there's still a large difference in complexity between vanilla/bc and now, but it hasn't gone too far yet (IMO).

  13. #33
    play without dbm and you notice.. blizz shuld just buy dbm and hire him that is making the org dbm and let he continue.. mabye with a diff name or somthing..
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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dakara View Post
    Well... yes and no. Just getting into Naxx itself (the attunement) cost more time and/or gold than your average player could afford in those days, but also, with no catch up mechanics, apart from a late game Honor grind, most players spent all of Vanilla in blues. So even it were just a gear check, most players would still have been excluded.

    However, the gear checks in Vanilla were mostly for tanks. Itemization was crap, and it was much harder to brute force an encounter "later in the game" because it was impossible to outgear it with welfare gear.
    Wasnt the attunement pretty much free with exalted ad or something like that? seem to recall i paid nothing. Edit: Well i paid a lot of repair costs but that was not the point

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Fluttershy View Post
    I've spent 16 hours a week raiding progression early in BC, and in retrospect I don't really see why it was so hard.

    What exactly was hard about vashj that it took some guilds 3-5 months to kill her (aside from doing like 1k dps and the inability to use an item) while nihilum/whatevertheguildthatbrutforcedthebuggedencounter were using crafted 115 blue gear and epic tailoring/bs patterns?

    Was it seriously so hard to kill a green water elemental and throw a tainted core to someone without taking an eternity? The guild wiping so much on vashj would've probably wiped endlessly on a lootbag like ultraxion.
    As someone who wiped 200+ times on Vashj.

    The first phase was fairly easy but maybe 10-20% of the time people would die and you'd have to wipe it. No big deal. The third phase was pretty much the same too but with the enrage timer. If most people were alive going into p3 it was usually a kill.

    The second phase was the hard part of the fight. It was long for an intense phase and even longer if people didn't kill a tainted in time. There were some melee adds the tanks had to pick up quickly and melee could kill. There were some striders that had to be kited. This wasn't too hard if you had good tanks and kiters but it meant a third of your raid was occupied on this. Meanwhile water elementals would spawn from 8 (I think) different points around the room and if more than a couple got to Vashj she would get a damage increase and you would start wiping. So your remaining raid members had to somehow cover the whole room, 1-2 people at each point, remember players don't have the amount of movement abilities and CC that they do now. Also when the tainted spawned players had to react VERY quickly to dps it down in time (again due to raid spreading out there would only be 1-2 people in range who could do this). You couldn't move with tainted core so you had to chain it to the pillar while all the other stuff is still going on. Also the damage from the chain lighting could be quite nasty if RNG meant it kept going on the same side and raid healers on the elemental groups had to cover 2 positions each with line of sight issues.

    So the fight was mostly "ARGHH PROZACMAGE CANT HANDLE NORTH LETS MOVE TONYHUNT THERE TOO OHMYGODWHYISSOUTHEASTSCREWINGUPNOW?" Wasn't as hard as Kael'Thas, mind.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by yehyehyehyeh View Post
    Vanilla was harder just because you needed 40 people. Just managing that was really difficult. Another thing which complicated raiding was the need (not needed but often required by the guild) for a wide range of materials/potions/buffs/... which had to be farmed. On top of that you often needed 'keys' to enter certain raids and raids were the only source of good gear. The combination of all this made raiding a lot more ... inconvenient.

    Raiding now is much more convenient and user friendly, but the mechanics are harder. It is just a different type of hard.
    Not true. The raids were hard back then because of class design. Back then classes weren't this complicated, didn't have all the utility tools, didn't have all the cooldowns, didn't do as much damage as they do now (sometimes critting for over their health pool)...
    And even though it's reached new heights, I rather like the restless nights. It makes me wonder, makes me think there's more to this, I'm on the brink. It's not the fear of what's beyond, it's just that I might not respond! I have an interest, almost craving, would I like to get to far in?!

  17. #37
    It's always fun when people that haven't raided in Vanilla or BC claim how easy it was.

    Yes, mechanics are more complex now, but if you want to have a feeling for how it was back in those days, I'd recommend you to

    a) Disable Omen
    b) Disable any Boss Mod you use
    c) Have a Pally tank without Righteous Fury (this is the skill, that increases agro, isn't it?) or any other tank beeing most of the time afk, so you'd have the low amount of agro again
    d) get your raid to always wait til at least 3 Sunder Armors are up before starting DPS OR Healing and if someone fails, wipe an try again
    e) Let your healers only cast about 5 spells and then force them to take a break to regain mana - so they have to set up a healing rotation - same with cooldowns like Nature's Swiftness - you need a rotation and if only ONE fails to cast the instant heal on your tank when the boss uses a skill, you wipe
    f) Get your DPS to use bandages (also on other, especially on the healers) at the end of a fight or wipe ...
    g) try a Tank rotation without Omen and tanks doing almost no threat (I guess a Pally tank without Righteous Fury? would come close to it)

    Try all of this and then come back and tell me it's easy ...
    Yes, fights are more complex today, but in my opinion do they no longer require the amount of teamwork needed in Vanilla or TBC - that's why I only raid casually since Wrath - in my opinion is it way easier, but more complex. A change that I don't like.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Laily View Post
    It's always fun when people that haven't raided in Vanilla or BC claim how easy it was.

    Yes, mechanics are more complex now, but if you want to have a feeling for how it was back in those days, I'd recommend you to

    a) Disable Omen
    b) Disable any Boss Mod you use
    c) Have a Pally tank without Righteous Fury (this is the skill, that increases agro, isn't it?) or any other tank beeing most of the time afk, so you'd have the low amount of agro again
    d) get your raid to always wait til at least 3 Sunder Armors are up before starting DPS OR Healing and if someone fails, wipe an try again
    e) Let your healers only cast about 5 spells and then force them to take a break to regain mana - so they have to set up a healing rotation - same with cooldowns like Nature's Swiftness - you need a rotation and if only ONE fails to cast the instant heal on your tank when the boss uses a skill, you wipe
    f) Get your DPS to use bandages (also on other, especially on the healers) at the end of a fight or wipe ...
    g) try a Tank rotation without Omen and tanks doing almost no threat (I guess a Pally tank without Righteous Fury? would come close to it)

    Try all of this and then come back and tell me it's easy ...
    Yes, fights are more complex today, but in my opinion do they no longer require the amount of teamwork needed in Vanilla or TBC - that's why I only raid casually since Wrath - in my opinion is it way easier, but more complex. A change that I don't like.
    More than half of those are intentional acts of stupidity, seriously now.

    HEY TANK, DONT USE ANY ABILITIES, DO NOT GO IN DEFENSIVE STANCE. SEE VANILLA IS HARD WHEN YOUR TANK IS LITERALLY BRAIN DEAD.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluttershy View Post
    More than half of those are intentional acts of stupidity, seriously now.

    HEY TANK, DONT USE ANY ABILITIES, DO NOT GO IN DEFENSIVE STANCE. SEE VANILLA IS HARD WHEN YOUR TANK IS LITERALLY BRAIN DEAD.
    Ehmn you do realize that "wait for x sunders" was an actual thing?

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Khorm View Post
    Well no, you needed 25 people in vanilla. The 15 other people would of been LFR heroes if it had been around.
    I lol @ you thinking about 4horsemen back in naxx40. LFR heroes on that fight, good luck.

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